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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 11:00:56 GMT -5
I wonder how many have seen these videos by Daniel Durston regarding the 2x2's? There are three parts to this one. Enjoy and please leave your comments! This man is also a fine singer and you can find a number of his songs on You-tube under his name.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEYLPcLd5Qk
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 11:16:49 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 11:27:27 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 11:43:51 GMT -5
This man was not allowed to ask questions? Are you serious? That wasn't my experience at all, when I attend the workers Bible Studies, gospel meetings, I asked all kinds of questions, and Leo Stancliff answered all of it in 1978. Nathan ~ Did you ever ask them about their early roots and connection to William Irvine or Edward Cooney or why their gospel message is so different from what is taught in most Christian churches today? Also, why they are so exclusive and write-off others outside the faith as not be genuine Christians because they don't follow the workers' teachings? These are questions that workers tend to shy away from and go out of their way to shut you down when you ask them, IMHO?
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 11:45:23 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 12:11:41 GMT -5
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Post by jondough on Apr 16, 2014 13:10:34 GMT -5
This man was not allowed to ask questions? Are you serious? That wasn't my experience at all, when I attended the workers Bible Studies on Guam University Campus lawn (6 hrs a week Tues/Friday), gospel meetings, I asked all kinds of questions, and Leo Stancliff answered all of it in 1978-1980. Leo LOVED questions. He also gave very scriptural answers. He use to have little meetings between the meetings at convention just so people could ask questions....and one of the reason I really respected him was because he didn't give some worker scripted answer....one I remember was, someone asked him "why do we wear buns"?. He said something like......Its not scriptural. He said that its not required, but that it was a practical way to keep long hair in a neat and modest way.
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Post by jondough on Apr 16, 2014 13:19:08 GMT -5
Sorry.....there is overwhelming evidence that WI was the beginning of our fellowship as we know it......thats ok tho....except for people like you that deny it.
but thats not the point of this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 16:31:41 GMT -5
Nathan, I do wonder why you continue to peddle this nonsense. No one believes this any longer - not even the workers. I am convinced that the only person you are trying to convince by posting this stuff is yourself. And without too much success. However on the basis that there may be some susceptible folk still out there despite all the information now available, here is a more thought provoking version of your story which may help to convince them of its authenticity (or the lack of it}. Of course no offence is attended. Matt10 During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert [POURING A LARGE GLASS OF WHISKEY] proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his [UNIDENTIFED] sister who was working as a domestic helper for an [UNINDENTIFED] family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany [OR WAS IT] Switzerland [OR WAS IT] France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been [OR THERE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN] other [UNINDENTIFED] families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the [UNINDENTIFED] family for whom William Irvine's [UNINDENTIFED] sister worked [ALTHOUGH YOU WON’T FIND ANY RECORD OF ANY OF THEM IN THE IRISH 1901 CENSUS.)
In any event, this [UNINDENTIFED] family told William's [UNINDENTIFED] sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently [APPARENTLY?] she attended fellowship meetings in their home [ALTHOUGH NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA WHERE IN IRELAND THEIR HOME ACTUALLY WAS]. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in [ANOTHER UNINDENTIFED PART OF] Ireland. He came and met these [UNINDENTIFED] folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized [BY YET ANOTHER UNINDENTIFED PERSON]. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker [BUT STRANGELY NEVER SUBSEQUENTLY MENTIONED ANY OF THIS TO ANYONE]. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there [ALTHOUGH CLEARLY HE WASN’T]. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece [OF DELIBERATE CONFUSION] to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places [ALREADY] confused and bitter about the origins of our faith [DUE TO SIMILAR FAR FETCHED STORIES HAVING BEEN PUT FORWARD TO TRY TO COVER UP THE TRUE BEGINNINGS]. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish [PARTICULARLY IF YOU'VE BEEN DRINKING]."
I asked George about the [UNIDENTIFIED] family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently [APPARENTLY?] told George that an [UNIDENTIFIED] number of their [UNINDENTIFED] descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe [BELIEVE?], in North America [ALTHOUGH NO ONE QUITE KNOWS WHERE]. Robert also told George that the [UNINDENTIFED] family/s in question [CONVENIENTLY] did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure [BUT GUESSED THAT] Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George [CONVENIENTLY] did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, [PRESUME?] at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting [AND RATHER FAR FETCHED] story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home [ALTHOUGH HE WASN’T QUITE SURE WHERE IT WAS AS HE'D BEEN DRINKING]. In a later discussion George [WHO HAD ALSO BEGAN DRINKING BY THIS STAGE] said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now [CONVENIENTLY] deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin [PRIOR TO HIS DECEASE]). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with [OTHER FAR FETCHED] things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. [CORNELIUS'S VIEW WAS THAT PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE ANYTHING]
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 17:01:14 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I do remember Ram's historical finding regarding Dorothy, William Irvine's sister and the yarn that he unraveled here on TMB regarding the same. However, I also very much aware of the fact that workers will lie about their roots and have done the same with me personally, so I tend to agree with Fixit's opinion regarding why we should not take the workers' word for it, since they have lied to us before and still practice the same art.
If the workers had no reason for propagating lies about their early beginnings, than why in the world did they do it for the last 100 years. Obviously, to cover up for William Irvine antics and his crazy Omega Gospel, which they refused to preach and caused contention within the inner circle back in time, resulting in William Irvine getting the "royal boot" from co-workers within his own religion that he created. However, excommunicating people who didn't agree with him was also a practice he enjoyed as well along with other workers who followed in his footsteps.
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 17:10:39 GMT -5
Nathan, I do wonder why you continue to peddle this nonsense. No one believes this any longer - not even the workers. I am convinced that the only person you are trying to convince by posting this stuff is yourself. And without too much success. However on the basis that there may be some susceptible folk still out there despite all the information now available, here is a more thought provoking version of your story which may help to convince them of its authenticity (or the lack of it}. Of course no offence is attended. Matt10 During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert [POURING A LARGE GLASS OF WHISKEY] proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his [UNIDENTIFED] sister who was working as a domestic helper for an [UNINDENTIFED] family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany [OR WAS IT] Switzerland [OR WAS IT] France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been [OR THERE MAY NOT HAVE BEEN] other [UNINDENTIFED] families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the [UNINDENTIFED] family for whom William Irvine's [UNINDENTIFED] sister worked [ALTHOUGH YOU WON’T FIND ANY RECORD OF ANY OF THEM IN THE IRISH 1901 CENSUS.)
In any event, this [UNINDENTIFED] family told William's [UNINDENTIFED] sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently [APPARENTLY?] she attended fellowship meetings in their home [ALTHOUGH NO ONE HAS ANY IDEA WHERE IN IRELAND THEIR HOME ACTUALLY WAS]. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in [ANOTHER UNINDENTIFED PART OF] Ireland. He came and met these [UNINDENTIFED] folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized [BY YET ANOTHER UNINDENTIFED PERSON]. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker [BUT STRANGELY NEVER SUBSEQUENTLY MENTIONED ANY OF THIS TO ANYONE]. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there [ALTHOUGH CLEARLY HE WASN’T]. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece [OF DELIBERATE CONFUSION] to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places [ALREADY] confused and bitter about the origins of our faith [DUE TO SIMILAR FAR FETCHED STORIES HAVING BEEN PUT FORWARD TO TRY TO COVER UP THE TRUE BEGINNINGS]. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish [PARTICULARLY IF YOU'VE BEEN DRINKING]."
I asked George about the [UNIDENTIFIED] family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently [APPARENTLY?] told George that an [UNIDENTIFIED] number of their [UNINDENTIFED] descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe [BELIEVE?], in North America [ALTHOUGH NO ONE QUITE KNOWS WHERE]. Robert also told George that the [UNINDENTIFED] family/s in question [CONVENIENTLY] did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure [BUT GUESSED THAT] Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George [CONVENIENTLY] did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, [PRESUME?] at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting [AND RATHER FAR FETCHED] story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home [ALTHOUGH HE WASN’T QUITE SURE WHERE IT WAS AS HE'D BEEN DRINKING]. In a later discussion George [WHO HAD ALSO BEGAN DRINKING BY THIS STAGE] said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now [CONVENIENTLY] deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin [PRIOR TO HIS DECEASE]). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with [OTHER FAR FETCHED] things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. [CORNELIUS'S VIEW WAS THAT PEOPLE WOULD BELIEVE ANYTHING] Matt10 ~ Are you competing with Ram in the story-telling department? LOL However, I do like your revised version of the story, which is quite humorous!
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 17:46:16 GMT -5
Sorry.....there is overwhelming evidence that WI was the beginning of our fellowship as we know it......thats ok tho....except for people like you that deny it. but thats not the point of this thread. Jondough ~ Thank you! However, these additional stories contrived over the years to hid the early roots of the Truth fellowship doesn't exactly paint a picture of integrity either, IMHO? It just seems to make the friends more apprehensive of the 2x2 fellowship due to the scandals and untruths that have surfaced in the past decades. In relation to this fact, I'm reminded of this old saying by Sir Walter Scott shown below:
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 17:52:21 GMT -5
I also would like to share a young person's experience who was recently excommunicated from the 2x2's in 2012 due to his testimony reflecting too much of the teaching of these worldly churches on the subject of God's grace. His name is Brandon and the worker's response to his own questioning resulted in being asked to leave the fellowship due to his "unwilling spirit" to accept the workers' advice without question regarding his testimony. Perhaps some of you are familiar with this person's story and can fill us in on more of the details. This is what Walker shared on another thread which I felt should be included here as an example of the workers turning off the youth by their control techniques, in which their questions are silenced. Perhaps there were a few old timers who did answer questions in the past as Nathan and Jondough brought out, but I feel that the majority of workers due a real side-stepping act to avoid confrontation and directly answering questions. It was no different in my day when I was young in the faith, so it doesn't surprise me that the same problem exists today. www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCWHY_uh1z8
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 13:11:40 GMT -5
Nathan - I think you should be able to conclude that your experience in being able to ask questions and get reasonable answers is highly unusual. We not only could not ask questions but we were so confused that we didn't even know what questions to ask. We generally asked questions about legalisms which seemed a bit crazy but they were just the symptom of the problem. We never asked questions about doctrine as we didn't know what to ask. In my experience as an adult (before and after leaving) I've found that it has been pointless to ask workers questions about doctrine. I say this kindly but 99% have no idea. This continues to this day as whilst I may not be asking too many workers questions these days, many people still in the meetings continue to do so and from private mails that I receive the answers are still as scrambled as ever. In fact in the modern communication age where so much info is available and some friends are quite okay about going to BSF etc, the understanding of many friends is way ahead of the workers. No doubt, more videos will become available to inform people. Most of the emerging info is not "bitter and twisted" as has often been characterised and there are plenty of options available for churches that teach sound doctrine which you can find out about at the touch of a button. Sects do have a pretty torrid time in the internet age. The options are to change doctrine and embrace sound doctrine (and ironically become more mainstream christian) or continue to lose members. Your experience and others have baffled me greatly. What kind of workers can't answer or allowing others to ask questions. How can others learn anything if they can't ask questions? Workers are in the work to preach and teach others. What do the workers in your area do in their private time I wonder? They shouldn't be in the work if they can't answer people questions and about their faith, and doctrine. How can you be LIVING Witnesses for Christ when you can't Witness or answer people questions?.... They should say "I don't Know, the answer to your question for right now, but I will get back to you about that question." Nobody has all the answers. I am still learning new things all the time.
I Peter 3:15-16 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.
I can only speak for our area, but...private time??? It doesn't seem like they have much of that...with all the special meeting/convention rounds here and abroad, and then all the new convention buildings that have gone up around here lately, they keep very busy. Last time they were at our house overnight (this was probably a year ago or so) they both stayed here in their pajamas all day, in their separate rooms...one played around on his phone doing updates on it and the other was learning Spanish on his Rosetta Stone software. I completely understand that they need downtime from time to time...I have no idea what they did the rest of the week, they may have been out evangelizing in the inner cities and prisons for all I know. Given what they said last time we asked about prison ministries though, probably not. The older brother worker was even hesitant to go to the local barber shop for a haircut because he was afraid he would then have to talk to the barber about what he does. I haven't had a lot of experience asking workers questions...we haven't had any in our area that we got to a place with where we would feel that comfortable talking to them much at all, let alone asking a lot of questions. I do have a family member in the work who has been extremely open to any and all questions, and I know he isn't just that way with me because we're related...he is that way with everyone and it is very appreciated.
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 13:35:30 GMT -5
Nathan ~ In relation to the sister of William Irvine being influential in bringing him the gospel, are you aware that he made his profession of faith in a Presbyterian Church even before his connection to the Faith Mission after attending the Bible Training Institute from 1893 to 1895, in Glasglow, Scotland. In William Irvine's own words, all his family attended this Presbyterian Church and three of his sisters were married here. The Rev. William Jeffrey was the pastor at the time when the family attended this church.
William Irvine's earlier connection to the Faith Mission came after his two years at the Bible Training Institute in Glasglow. His sister, Margaret died at the age of 25 years old in July 1886, some 11 years before he ever started his own religion. You can check Irvine's family tree which you posted this information yourself on his older sister, Margaret, or died possibly from tuberculosis. Cherie's site goes into much more detail than Wiki on William Irvine's earlier life with reference to his profession of faith, too. So, this connection with a sister who died 11 years earlier seems like just another concoction of George Walker and some older workers to cover-up Irvine as the original founder of their group? Since these earlier workers decided to ex-communicate their own leader when he started passing off his Omega Doctrine for them to preach, that might be a possible reason, if George Walker did make such a comment? So, from the accounts below, it's highly unlikely that William Irvine's older sister Margaret had any influence over his profession of faith previously, since he was raised Presbyterian up until he was 30 years old and when he had started his 2x2 fellowship at the age of 34 yrs. old in 1897. Margaret, who was two years old than William, had been dead for 11 years before this, dying at the age of 25 years in July 1886.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Irvine_(Scottish_evangelist) William Irvine (Scottish evangelist) on Wiki
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_family/index.php (William Irvine's Family Tree on TTT)
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/01wmibook.php#1893 (William Irvine's Presbyterian background on TTT)
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 13:57:17 GMT -5
Faune, The Daniel Durston in this video resides in England, and family in USA, but the latter post of him singing, isn't the same Daniel Durston. He does not look the same. HD I thought the same thing! too, they are two different people but have the same first and last name.Nathan ~ Wow ~ I guess I got that one screwed up for sure? However, I remember somebody relating here on TMB a while back about a son of one of the friends who made a video and thought it was the same person. They had said he had one song on the album which featured this group. Sorry, if I was possibly wrong here? BTW, I noticed the guy in the video has his share of tattoos compared to the one in this F&W video, so perhaps I did mess up here?
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 16:42:58 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I do realize that William Irvine had an older sister by the name of Margaret, who was two years older than he. That is the truth and no fairy tale. He also had a younger sister who also died at the age of 15 years old. However, Margaret died at 25 years old in July 1886, some 11 years before he even started his 2x2 religion. No doubt she also attended the same Presbyterian Church that he did in the past, too?
In addition, after William Irvine was excommunicated by his co-workers in 1914, he wrote a number of letters, which can also be found on Cherie's TTT site, in which he claimed the 2x2's to be his "brain child" and no mention is ever made of his older sister, Margaret, having any influence whatsoever in the creation of the 2x2's. I feel this is just a bunch of here-say evidence and empty rumors passed down over the years with nothing to back them up? Also, I would think William Irvine's letters themselves would vouch for his creation of the 2x2's, as they were pinned in his own handwriting and had no mention of his older sister, Margaret, influencing his choice.
Also, your own excerpts from letters you shared previously vouch for the fact that William Irvine was the sole creator of the Truth fellowship and he felt wronged by his co-workers for kicking him out of his very own creation, the 2x2 religion. What more is there to prove that we don't already know from the evidence of record? What "missing pieces" do you imagine to be left out from this picture? It's obvious that Margaret, if she ever played a part, was never even mentioned by her younger brother in any way, which would seem strange, if she played any part in his conversion experience at 30 years old? Actually, she was already dead for 4 years before William Irvine even made a profession of faith within the Presbyterian Church, so that couldn't possibly had happen anyway. Also, I noticed that William Irvine referred to his own co-workers as "false apostles" who took over his religious movement after they had pushed him to the curb or ex-communicated him.
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 18:18:55 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Wow ~ I guess I got that one screwed up for sure? However, I remember somebody relating here on TMB a while back about a son of one of the friends who made a video and thought it was the same person. They had said he had one song on the album which featured this group. Sorry, if I was possibly wrong here? BTW, I noticed the guy in the video has his share of tattoos compared to the one in this F&W video, so perhaps I did mess up here? Faune, It is difficult sometimes to guess a character even in a video. So, no problem. no one is perfect! Daniel whose video you shared with us (not the singer,) lives in UK along with a couple brothers. His parents live in the lower portion of the USA. HD Humdidee ~ Well then, who is this other professing guy who played in a video recently and had one of his songs included in their album? I thought his name was Daniel Durston, since he did play in this video and had one of his songs on this group's album? Perhaps somebody here on TMB can fill me in on who this other guy was that I got confused with the author of these F&W videos?
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 18:40:24 GMT -5
Faune, I dunno. Perhaps someone can clue us in? HD I hope so, since I know I read it on this Board in the past and I only remember some of the details ~ unfortunately not the guy's correct name here?
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 22:41:04 GMT -5
Nathan ~ From what you presented from Cherie's TTT site, I believe Wm. Irvine did get demoted for his immoral conduct with perhaps married women, as suggested above. However, the rambling tone and contents of letters after 1914 suggest a man without all his marbles in order, IMO. He sounds paranoid and delusional with his end of the world predictions and visions of grandeur. My honest guess would be that the man was manic depressive and had some sort of psychotic break from reality around this time? Jack Carroll's description also gives this impression, too. However, if he owed his conversion experience to Margaret, I'm sure he would mentioned it somewhere, which he does not. Also, she died in July 1886 and he professed that January 8, 1893 marked the day he put his faith in Christ. Also, he helped to institute the Living Witness Doctrine as part of the 2x2 teachings before he got the royal boot from his co-workers. Wm. Irvine also continued to take funds from the Faith Mission, even though he was doing his own thing. Mr. Govan of the Faith Mission cut him off from any further support in January 1901 when he learned of Wm. Irvine intentions to create his own following which had been in effect since 1898. Your own article attests to this earlier meeting between William Irvine and what a few others of these earlier workers who had decided upon making Matthew 10 as a pattern of ministers. William Irvine just continued to enjoy the support from the Faith Mission as he worked at the creation of this experimental ministry, taking on earlier followers who shared his vision. However, it's pretty obvious from the Impartial Reporters earlier accounts that William Irvine was the "ring-leader" of this group in which John Long, George Walker,, and others old timers joined along the way, including Edward Cooney.
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Post by faune on Apr 17, 2014 22:50:29 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 20, 2014 11:59:47 GMT -5
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