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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 9:55:09 GMT -5
Some have been making considerable comment about "Hell" even going so far as to make comments about it as if their belief is fact, rather than just their belief. Like so many expressed thoughts in this forum, it is good for me to always remember that often what is expressed, by myself, as well as many others is not absolute fact, but personal belief. Now there are some who make every attempt to deal with absolute fact and I appreciate learning from them.
Back to this subject regarding "hell." Linguistically there are a number of words translated "hell." Some just meant the grave, or abiding place of the dead. Yahu'shuah ha Meshiach is recorded as commenting upon, even warning people about, a spiritual condition recorded as "gehenna" which referred to that garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where the consuming stinking fire was not put out and the worms were constantly feasting upon that which was dead, rotten and decaying.
In my own musings, I see life beyond the grave as much like a continuum which by definition passes through the empty set, or null condition. My own belief is that I have no fear of that "gehenna" as referenced by my Lord and Master. Not because of having done nothing to regret, but because I have regretted it in life, and believe that my memory is washed at death of such regrets because of the new life I have received in this life because of my "God-Savior," in whom I believe.
That spiritual condition of "gehenna", to me, consists of agonizing regrets. The more I would have to regret, the greater I would be tormented, if it were not for this gift of new life received because of my belief in my God-Savior. When I regret in this life that which I believe is iniquity that I should be sorry for having committed, It is washed in that eagerly anticipated expectation created in me by the one who has brought me this new life, by being born again.
The null or empty set referenced above, in my mind exists of those in life who have experienced natural life with nothing to regret, nothing to anticipate, and thus create that fixed gulf which none on that side of the grave can cross. No, I cannot say that is how it is, rather just how I perceive it to be.
This is the reality in which I live, chose to live, and chose to believe exists for mankind -- by and in such belief as I hold. Just as matters of my own conscience are for me, and not for others, so I believe regarding this matter. If others don't chose to believe as I, I also chose to believe that is not for me to fuss over as it is simply out of my realm anyway, and nothing I can do about it, except wish them health and happiness and wellness of soul in their dealings with their fellow travelers in life.
So such are my thoughts about "hell" and this concept of suffering beyond the grave. There is no conflict with scripture for me in this belief. Each day of life I am to remember, I am nobody's "judge" neither now nor after the grave.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 15, 2014 12:46:33 GMT -5
Dennis, could a person in a saved eternity still suffer from 'gehenna' then? Might you be taking the universal approach that everybody goes to heaven, but modifying it to explain that some are happier there than others?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 13:27:20 GMT -5
Personally, I believe a person must be born again to have eternal or everlasting life, Yes, I believe all who do reach such a state, will have no regrets for according to what I perceive and believe, their regrets will end at the grave.
As to one being happier than another in that spiritual realm we think of as "heaven"? Where does that come from? Where does is the teaching found of such a human trait as "comparisons" in the eternal realm? At the moment human life ceases for the born again, I perceive spiritual life continues, a life that begins in this awareness and is filled with the fruit of the spirit of which they have as a result of being born again; while the flesh with all its desires, lusts and envy, etc. ends. Thus leaving only smaller or greater rewards or regrets. Yeah, I know a quite foolish and simple belief. However, it is easier that way for me to comprehend and understand with the handicap of a finite mind.
As to that being a product of God, making such a God out to be evil, it is merely the regret(s) of those having made bad choices in life. The God I love and serve offers the gift of eternal life to all who have heard such a message. For those who have not heard such a message, well they can hardly expect the reward promised to those who not only hear it, but respond to it, with many making up that great fixed gulf between those rejoicing and those regretting. Surely those with less to regret would certainly simply have less regrets.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 15, 2014 15:16:28 GMT -5
Sorry, I just misunderstood, Dennis. Do you envision heaven as a state/condition or a place? Do you "go to" heaven, or might people be in heaven while still on earth? I was thinking from your post that Gehenna was a state, while heaven was still a place. Thus, a person could be in the state of Gehenna while residing in heaven.
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 18:02:57 GMT -5
Hell has been described by Pope Jean Paul II as a state of mind, a separation from God. So is hell just degrees of separation? Also reward being based on degrees of connection with God?
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 20:08:13 GMT -5
Sorry, I just misunderstood, Dennis. Do you envision heaven as a state/condition or a place? Do you "go to" heaven, or might people be in heaven while still on earth? I was thinking from your post that Gehenna was a state, while heaven was still a place. Thus, a person could be in the state of Gehenna while residing in heaven. Dubious ~ At first I wondered about your statement underlined above, but than I thought of the contents of the Lord's prayer and the picture we are given of God's will being done on earth as in heaven. In Revelation 21, it speak the City of God or New Jerusalem descending down from above to a seemingly new earth and heaven, since the old one had passed away. This was all proceeded by the 1,000 years of peace during the millennial reign of Christ on the earth after Armageddon, which was followed by a time when Satan will be loosed from his chains and go about deceiving the nations again. Then when he encamps around the Holy City with his armies, fire will come down from heaven and destroy all the enemy forces. After this comes the final judgment where the righteous join Christ and the unrighteous and rejects of the world join the other degenerates in the lake of fire.
This millennial reign of Christ seemingly takes place just before the final Great White Throne Judgment, in which all the dead of the earth are brought back to life from their resting places and judged out of the Book of Life before God on His throne. The righteous are accepted into eternal bliss and the unrighteous are designated for annihilation or destruction in the lake of fire, where the beast (antichrist) and false prophet are always enjoying being roasted in eternal torment. In the end, Satan (the devil) and his angels (pinions) also will join these two other deceivers in this lake of fire. However, from the description given at the end of the chapter, it appears that death and Hades are the last things thrown into this great Abyss and destroyed. However, within Luke 16, Jesus speaks about one' souls and body being destroyed in Gehenna ~ not being eternally tormented in this second death before a new heaven and earth are created in which only dwells the righteous.
What this causes me to wonder is where did all these verses regarding eternal torment day and night come into play, if the book of Revelation speaks of annihilation or eternal destruction? Are just the lost souls destroyed in the second death and the beast, false prophet, and Satan and his angels reserved for unending eternal punishment for their deeds in deceiving the nations or are all of these lost ones destroyed completely before the New Jerusalem is set on a new earth, or rather, heaven on earth?
However, before the new earth and heaven becomes a reality in Revelation 21, there must have been a mighty clean-up effort after Armageddon and all the destruction which resulted in that last great conflict within the world before Jesus even returned to reign for 1,000 years?
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 20:39:27 GMT -5
Hell has been described by Pope Jean Paul II as a state of mind, a separation from God. So is hell just degrees of separation? Also reward being based on degrees of connection with God? Snow ~ Actually in Luke 12, Jesus speaks of levels to Hell. It also seems from Luke 16, that there is a temporary place of confinement in Hades before the final judgment day recorded in Revelation 20. However, the picture is given that those in Abraham's bosom or the place of Paradise for the righteous dead, were released from their temporary resting place and allowed entrance into Heaven when Jesus died on the Cross and the temple veil was rent in two. At least, that's one interpretation I remember reading lately on this subject. Later Paul spoke in 2 Corinthians 5:8 that to be "absent from the body was to be present with the Lord."
www.openbible.info/topics/levels_of_hell
biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-8.htm
www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/do-christians-go-immediately-to-heaven-after-they-die/
These words spoken by Jesus makes me wonder if Hell isn't a place of annihilation or destruction for the resurrected those resurrected bodies who join their souls and end up in Hell after the final judgment and partake in the second death in this place of everlasting fire. It does speak of the beast (antichrist), false prophet, and Satan and his angels being tormented forever, but I wonder if the same would apply to wicked dead? Also what happens when Hades and death are finally thrown into this eternal fire? Would this suggest the end of this destructive cycle for all in this place? However, the wording in Revelation 20, which is the climax for all mankind, seemingly leaves a picture of souls being subjected to eternally torment in this place of eternal damnation, which is called the second death?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 20:45:34 GMT -5
Hell has been described by Pope Jean Paul II as a state of mind, a separation from God. So is hell just degrees of separation? Also reward being based on degrees of connection with God? Snow ~ Actually in Luke 12, Jesus speaks of levels to Hell. It also seems from Luke 16, that there is a temporary place of confinement in Hades before the final judgment day recorded in Revelation 20. However, the picture is given that those in Abraham's bosom or the place of Paradise for the righteous dead, were released from their temporary resting place and allowed entrance into Heaven when Jesus died on the Cross and the temple veil was rent in two. At least, that's one interpretation I remember reading lately on this subject. Later Paul spoke in 2 Corinthians 5:6 that to be "absent from the body was to be present with the Lord."
www.openbible.info/topics/levels_of_hell
www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/do-christians-go-immediately-to-heaven-after-they-die/
do you means these two verses indicate different levels of hell? Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. interesting...needless to say i wouldn't want to be in any level of hell...
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 15, 2014 21:11:01 GMT -5
faune, I, too, speculate that Revelation teaches only the evil trinity (Satan, the beast, the false prophet) undergo eternal punishment in the lake of fire, though it appears to be a place to discard all of the Armageddon bodies. I take that stance in my book, though it's actually not very clear...
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Post by faune on Apr 15, 2014 21:21:09 GMT -5
faune, I, too, speculate that Revelation teaches only the evil trinity (Satan, the beast, the false prophet) undergo eternal punishment in the lake of fire, though it appears to be a place to discard all of the Armageddon bodies. I take that stance in my book, though it's actually not very clear... Dubious ~ You just answered my question I postulated earlier, as Revelation 20 is not very clear on this matter. Also, even Jesus indicated that those who end up in the second death would have their body and souls "destroyed" in hell ~ not tormented forever and ever. At least, that's what I deducted from that verse. I also like your wording of "the evil trinity" for the three deceivers ~ Satan, the beast (antichrist) and the false prophet. What I'm wondering is if the beast and the false prophet were human beings or some kind of spiritual evil being, like Satan himself, to endure eternal punishment in Hell?
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Post by xna on Apr 15, 2014 21:45:40 GMT -5
faune, I, too, speculate that Revelation teaches only the evil trinity (Satan, the beast, the false prophet) undergo eternal punishment in the lake of fire, though it appears to be a place to discard all of the Armageddon bodies. I take that stance in my book, though it's actually not very clear... I have recently been to Gehenna and Armageddon. Gehenna is a very small valley that today has yet to be developed. The valley of Armageddon is one of the most prosperous agricultural parts of Israel. Perhaps someone sees a prophecy being fulfilled here?
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 22:11:56 GMT -5
All I can say is I am just so glad I no longer buy into the concept of hell at any level. I remember when I quit professing at 12 and was so scared. At that point I knew I was going to hell, but I could not worship the God of the Bible. I didn't feel I had a choice. Thankfully as I grew up and my mind matured to be able to reason a tad better than that, I came to realize there was no such thing as the God of the bible, and so of course there is no such thing as hell. After researching it a bit more I also found that it wasn't even a Christian concept until after Jesus had been dead for quite some time. That's why I think teaching children there is a Christian hell is abusive. I could have been spared that angst at 12 if I hadn't been taught an untruth. However, that is what they were taught by their parents so I have to just be understanding and let it be what it was. A learning experience.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 16, 2014 12:44:21 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is if the beast and the false prophet were human beings or some kind of spiritual evil being, like Satan himself, to endure eternal punishment in Hell? [/p][/quote] You probably know my opinion, right? The beast is undoubtedly Nero Caesar, as attested by nearly every knowledgeable Revelation scholar I've ever read. I have my own theory about who the false prophet was...but if you don't read my book, it seems like wild speculation, so I'll avoid naming him here unless the conversation goes much deeper!
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Post by faune on Apr 16, 2014 12:51:12 GMT -5
What I'm wondering is if the beast and the false prophet were human beings or some kind of spiritual evil being, like Satan himself, to endure eternal punishment in Hell? [/quote] You probably know my opinion, right? The beast is undoubtedly Nero Caesar, as attested by nearly every knowledgeable Revelation scholar I've ever read. I have my own theory about who the false prophet was...but if you don't read my book, it seems like wild speculation, so I'll avoid naming him here unless the conversation goes much deeper! [/quote][/p]
Dubious ~ No, I haven't read your book on Revelation yet. However, I take it that you feel it referred to Christ's own time during the first century and not some future date according to your statement above? Revelation does leave you a little bewildered with all its apocalyptic predictions of future events. However, I would love to know who they consider the "false prophet" to be here, too.
Here's one article I found recently, but its pretty lengthy on Revelation and still leaves me a bit confused.
www.raystedman.org/new-testament/revelation/when-men-become-beasts
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 13:48:13 GMT -5
Some of us, and indeed I am one, believe that the revelation given by Yahu'shuah Ha Meshiac to the apostle John is not best represented by anyone who's expressed views indicate themselves as not even believing it came from the Lord. While it indeed may well have been thought by some as intended only for that day, with references limited to that day, others, and I am one of those obviously considered less knowledgeable scholars, who believe it has application far beyond that day. However, I have no book to push intended to add or detract from the content of that "Revelation."
There are informal fallacies of logic frequently used by various people of which one is known as "poisoning the well," as can even be seen used in this thread. Discredit anyone not believing as another, by implying they simply are not "knowledgeable." Seems to work quite well for those less knowledgeable regarding informal fallacies of logic, I guess. Rather offensive to some of us, though. People who use another's thread to put their own spin upon topics contained in the OP instead of starting their own, reveal themselves to me for who and what they really are. I perceive it is time for me to simply quit posting here.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 16, 2014 14:29:57 GMT -5
Dennis, I'm sorry you feel insulted, or your knowledge demeaned, when someone presents an alternative opinion. I think you are altogether too sensitive. I understand this board to be for conversation...the sharing of opinions...not for one person to impose their view on others. You may start a blog somewhere and prevent anyone from commenting, thereby keeping it purely your own hyperbole if you wish. But don't open a topic here if you are not prepared to discuss it openly.
Faune, Dennis's view has merit. There are many Christians who recognize that Revelation relates to first century events, and surely John had no idea he was describing anything other than what he was already experiencing in his present, but that 1st-century events become a typology of an even greater set of events to come. It's similar to the way the author of Daniel wrote about Antiochus IV as his villain, who became a typology of John's beast: Nero Caesar. Today, we see John's beast as a typology of an antichrist to come.
I personally do not get too hung up on present-day beliefs, being more fascinated by what Revelation's author was experiencing back in the first century.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 20, 2014 18:19:37 GMT -5
fyi, Dennis contacted me by pm to express that he was doing well (wondering why he is still alive, ha) but "pretty much done posting on TMB," partly because he dislikes how other posters hide behind anonymity.
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Post by matisse on Apr 22, 2014 11:23:39 GMT -5
fyi, Dennis contacted me by pm to express that he was doing well (wondering why he is still alive, ha) but "pretty much done posting on TMB," partly because he dislikes how other posters hide behind anonymity. I'm glad to hear Dennis is doing well. Did he object to people making anonymous donations?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 22, 2014 13:15:25 GMT -5
I guess not ... he mentioned the "kind-hearted atheists" here. He expressed that what he received was a drop in the bucket compared to what he spent out of pocket, and the limited income of 2x2ism.
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Post by snow on Apr 22, 2014 19:32:19 GMT -5
fyi, Dennis contacted me by pm to express that he was doing well (wondering why he is still alive, ha) but "pretty much done posting on TMB," partly because he dislikes how other posters hide behind anonymity. I'm glad to hear Dennis is doing well. Did he object to people making anonymous donations? I wondered about that too. Because a lot of us are trying to stay anonymous but we still try to help. It's not easy to do both.
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