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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2014 9:15:02 GMT -5
There is plenty of negativity among innies but as Ross suggests, it only comes out among those whom they trust. Most people just bottle it up like stuffing a cork into a bottle. Sometimes the pressure in the bottle gets so intense that it causes health problems. What is really interesting is knowing someone who is quite negative in private and then watch them go all sweet and gaga when the workers are around. They transition so smoothly that I doubt they even realize they are doing it. I feel sorry for them because inside they can't feel a lot of stability. I can attest to the above. We spent this last year talking to friends and workers about issues that are "negative." We have found that there are some who are very critical of the system, feel that most overseers cannot be trusted, but admit that they only talk about it when it's safe, with like-minded people. There is one worker who even told us that he never talks about CSA and immorality in the ministry issues with other workers, because it's "not safe." Yet, he is very grieved about the problem. We would have never found out their opinions and concerns had we not brought up the issue ourselves and made them feel "safe" to talk about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 18:09:07 GMT -5
I am glad there is the "the Secret world of Truth" facebook site. When professing youth get on Youth 323, Saints and Servants or Professing friends, they may also see a site to the the right of the screen listing similar sites. I am surprised that many youth of these websites are just now finding out the history of the Truth and the fact that CSA has been covered up in the fellowship and ministry.
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Post by ellie on Apr 17, 2014 23:37:24 GMT -5
Any facebook experts know if it is possible to join groups and not have the group name appear anywhere on my profile? Only if the group is set to Secret, I believe. Which the group The Secret World of Truth is. If you're interested in joining, PM me and I can add you! Otherwise, if you want to join a group while remaining anonymous, you just have to set up a fake Facebook profile I guess... As a member of the Secret World group, I can tell you that any perceived negativity there is simply the result of people sharing experiences and feelings with the intent of helping others, and also with the hope of healing themselves. I feel much more "at home" there than I ever did on any of the other groups...323 Youth, True Friends, Professing Friends, Saints & Servants...you name it. I know there is quite a bit of gossip about those of us in the Open Air and Secret World groups on those other sites, and reading what they have to say is actually quite appalling. Apparently we are now "of Satan", we've lost the battle, we are no longer in unity with them because we've taken a different road, we've stepped aside, we've fallen away (which of course is scriptural that some would), we didn't read and pray enough, we are nit picking and trying to use our own logic to understand "truth", we have the wrong spirit, we've been sidetracked, we've been led astray, we've made wrong decisions, we're blaming others to cover up our own unwillingness, etc... I know some of the people that are saying those things personally. If they really were concerned about me, why wouldn't they just message me to discuss it instead of plaster it all over Facebook? It's like junior high, quite honestly. And even more ridiculous are the people that don't know me at all that are saying those things. And of course, mixed in with all their judgement of us, was praise for themselves...how grateful they are that they have discernment where they can see that we are of Satan and have the wrong spirit and that they didn't give in to that and also let Satan have the victory. And of course more praise for Facebook groups that ARE "encouraging and edifying" like 323 Youth, etc...where discussion is NOT allowed. I have no idea why they have such a huge fear of discussion, but it is almost humorous. It's often mentioned if anyone tries to post anything too "out of the box" that they aren't looking for "discussion", only "encouragement". Thanks - I'm thinking.
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Post by ScholarGal on Apr 18, 2014 8:22:20 GMT -5
What you write is in agreement with my experience, except the part about "drifting into atheism". My experience has been, for those who come to an atheists worldview, where the god question is important, it is because they once were committed believers. They came to atheism not by drifting, but from even more study of the bible, self examination, being intellectual honest, & above all seeking to know what is real and what is true. I suspect many Christians would be surprised atheist know the bible, and how much they read the bible. If you leave a religion I do think some drifting helps you normalize your thinking. It's good to get out of the echo chamber before you honestly examine what you believed, and why. There is not much intrinsic upside to taking the atheist label in the USA. Your life will be much much easier if you drift with the big school of fish. To me it's about thinking and be honest. Being honest may not get you the most friends, but it gets you the best ones. I totally agree with you about there is no social upside to being an atheist. Old friends and family usually don't have much to do with you and if they do, you no longer speak the same language. So no, it's not an asset in life to be an atheist. But you can't help what you have come to know to be true. Once you look clearly at the reasons for religion and belief in religion you recognize that all that crumbles when light is shone on it (research). It would be much easier for me if I just drifted along with my Baptist family. I can't say that there is a social upside to being an atheist, but I do know that a number of my friends and acquaintances are agnostic and atheist. I'm somewhere between the Gen X and Gen Y labels, and I actually value that my friends are open about their religious and non-religious views. I think the age of Facebook has made it much easier for 20-somethings and 30-somethings to connect with people who share their views, once they are willing to post about them. One of my Facebook friends recently purged her friend list of people who would antagonize her about her non-traditional views, which means that she will probably start making more connections with people who share her "new" ideas. Facebook is a platform that lends itself to confirmation bias. I have a love-hate relationship with Facebook, but my favorite part about it is scrolling through the news feed and seeing my Facebook friends post everything from "He is risen...", "Mazel Tov", "Eid Mubarak", to rants against the creation museum and odes to the joys of scientific research and discovery. I hate election season and posts about guns.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2014 10:40:17 GMT -5
it would be hard not to see negative comments if they rear thier ugly head... Not if you agree with them. If someone said something negative which you agreed with, then you likely wouldn't view the comment as negative, am I correct? That is what I mean. They hold your viewpoint on life so what they say is not negative to you, yet could very easily be quite negative for others not of your mindset. Do you understand what I mean. It's not black and white. Since you agree with most of the 2x2 mindset, then you likely aren't in a position to see the negatives because you believe in them too. We don't always see the negatives if we hold that belief ourselves and I am in that category same as anyone else. I just hold a bunch of different beliefs then you about what is negative. But if we follow that thinking along, then their comments really are not negative at all. That is, if someone thinks that you are being led by Satan if you left their group, are they wrong? Apparently not, since it's a logical conclusion from their 'a priori' belief system. It is highly ironic that people will leave the f&w, take umbrage that they are thought to be following Satan (let's say), and then join another church group, like many of the Evangelicals, which thinks the same thing about the church their new members left behind. The minimum such a person should do is say, okay, we don't like the friends branding people as "following Satan" but really, we're no different. So if we're okay, then they're okay too; that's just how things are done in the wacky world of religion.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2014 10:56:16 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism. The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 18, 2014 13:21:21 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism. The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers. So you reject the idea of having ‘a living faith in Jesus Christ’ which is what Christianity is all about. When I read your post a portion of Scripture came to mind that I think describes your mind set: [5] having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. [6] For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, [7] always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:5-7 ESV) There are many who want the blessings of Christianity without the commitment of being a follower of Jesus. On this particular day it is particularly relevant to quote our Lord Jesus Christ: [23] And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. [24] For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. [25] For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? (Luke 9:23-25 ESV) His listeners would have understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. Many times they had watched a man pass by carrying a cross and walking between two Roman soldiers knowing that he was headed for certain death.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 14:31:40 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 18, 2014 15:02:41 GMT -5
There is plenty of negativity among innies but as Ross suggests, it only comes out among those whom they trust. Most people just bottle it up like stuffing a cork into a bottle. Sometimes the pressure in the bottle gets so intense that it causes health problems. What is really interesting is knowing someone who is quite negative in private and then watch them go all sweet and gaga when the workers are around. They transition so smoothly that I doubt they even realize they are doing it. I feel sorry for them because inside they can't feel a lot of stability. Clearday ~ I wouldn't be surprised if such a person experiences a lot of cognitive dissonance due to bottled up emotions?
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Post by faune on Apr 18, 2014 15:09:58 GMT -5
I totally agree with you about there is no social upside to being an atheist. Old friends and family usually don't have much to do with you and if they do, you no longer speak the same language. So no, it's not an asset in life to be an atheist. But you can't help what you have come to know to be true. Once you look clearly at the reasons for religion and belief in religion you recognize that all that crumbles when light is shone on it (research). It would be much easier for me if I just drifted along with my Baptist family. I can't say that there is a social upside to being an atheist, but I do know that a number of my friends and acquaintances are agnostic and atheist. I'm somewhere between the Gen X and Gen Y labels, and I actually value that my friends are open about their religious and non-religious views. I think the age of Facebook has made it much easier for 20-somethings and 30-somethings to connect with people who share their views, once they are willing to post about them. One of my Facebook friends recently purged her friend list of people who would antagonize her about her non-traditional views, which means that she will probably start making more connections with people who share her "new" ideas. Facebook is a platform that lends itself to confirmation bias. I have a love-hate relationship with Facebook, but my favorite part about it is scrolling through the news feed and seeing my Facebook friends post everything from "He is risen...", "Mazel Tov", "Eid Mubarak", to rants against the creation museum and odes to the joys of scientific research and discovery. I hate election season and posts about guns. ScholarGirl ~ According to your Facebook page, you sound like a pretty open-minded person with a broad world view, which is an asset in today's society. Personally, my Facebook page is very similar and I like it that way. I have friends from every religious group, including agnostic/atheists, and I appreciate what they all share on their home pages. I'm more of a moderate-liberal at heart, so I tend to view things differently than some, but I do understand where most people are coming from in their posts from my own exposure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 16:20:45 GMT -5
There is plenty of negativity among innies but as Ross suggests, it only comes out among those whom they trust. Most people just bottle it up like stuffing a cork into a bottle. Sometimes the pressure in the bottle gets so intense that it causes health problems. What is really interesting is knowing someone who is quite negative in private and then watch them go all sweet and gaga when the workers are around. They transition so smoothly that I doubt they even realize they are doing it. I feel sorry for them because inside they can't feel a lot of stability. Clearday ~ I wouldn't be surprised if such a person experiences a lot of cognitive dissonance due to bottled up emotions? It's probably mostly the other way around. Cognitive dissonance is pretty frustrating.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 16:55:11 GMT -5
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that very few people are genuinely interested in a person's TRUE reason(s) for leaving something, whether that means quitting a job or leaving a church or leaving a relationship. Sure, people are bound to be curious and there is bound to be speculation too...that is the natural, human thing to do. But genuine concern? I'm not saying nobody cares, but sometimes it's easier to reconcile the event or situation when you can slap a label on it.
In the friend/worker context, I believe that when someone leaves the fellowship there is some genuine concern for the fate of that person's soul, but there is a lack in knowing how to approach someone who has left and there is an awkwardness. So, rather than feel awkward, many people just opt out of contact. So, real open discussion about the truth of the matter gets dropped. fwiw-bop
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:04:57 GMT -5
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that very few people are genuinely interested in a person's TRUE reason(s) for leaving something, whether that means quitting a job or leaving a church or leaving a relationship. Sure, people are bound to be curious and there is bound to be speculation too...that is the natural, human thing to do. But genuine concern? I'm not saying nobody cares, but sometimes it's easier to reconcile the event or situation when you can slap a label on it. In the friend/worker context, I believe that when someone leaves the fellowship there is some genuine concern for the fate of that person's soul, but there is a lack in knowing how to approach someone who has left and there is an awkwardness. So, rather than feel awkward, many people just opt out of contact. So, real open discussion about the truth of the matter gets dropped. fwiw-bop .. ...- .. aww c'mon .. who wants to have open discussion when it's far easier to be psychic and read peoples' minds..?? then you know the closeted reasons behind the open actions and don't need talk about it .. . i'm being very facetious here
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:21:37 GMT -5
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that very few people are genuinely interested in a person's TRUE reason(s) for leaving something, whether that means quitting a job or leaving a church or leaving a relationship. Sure, people are bound to be curious and there is bound to be speculation too...that is the natural, human thing to do. But genuine concern? I'm not saying nobody cares, but sometimes it's easier to reconcile the event or situation when you can slap a label on it. In the friend/worker context, I believe that when someone leaves the fellowship there is some genuine concern for the fate of that person's soul, but there is a lack in knowing how to approach someone who has left and there is an awkwardness. So, rather than feel awkward, many people just opt out of contact. So, real open discussion about the truth of the matter gets dropped. fwiw-bop .. ...- .. aww c'mon .. who wants to have open discussion when it's far easier to be psychic and read peoples' minds..?? then you know the closeted reasons behind the open actions and don't need talk about it .. . i'm being very facetious here As facetious as you might be being in your comment, unfortunately it may not be too far off the mark. It IS easier to assume, rather than to listen to and accept the true reasons. (as if we could read peoples' minds). But, as advanced as we think we have become in this 'civilized' society, we still cannot read minds with high accuracy. And would we want to be able to do that? Yes and no. There are likely many thoughts of others that we don't really want to know...(don't want to go there). And, maybe it's more important that we are honest with ourselves, firstly. But, I remember once this lady asked me a question about my reasons for doing what I did. I had a distinct impression this person was not really/truly interested in the true reasons and what all occurred. So, rather than answer her, I asked her a question in return: I asked, "Do you really want to know?" And she said, "No, I don't". Well, then I could have said, "Why did you ask that question, if you didn't really want to know...?" But I chose instead to drop it. It was enough that I perceived she was just sort of curious, but not truly interested. fwiw-bop
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 17:36:50 GMT -5
There is plenty of negativity among innies but as Ross suggests, it only comes out among those whom they trust. Most people just bottle it up like stuffing a cork into a bottle. Sometimes the pressure in the bottle gets so intense that it causes health problems. What is really interesting is knowing someone who is quite negative in private and then watch them go all sweet and gaga when the workers are around. They transition so smoothly that I doubt they even realize they are doing it. I feel sorry for them because inside they can't feel a lot of stability. I can attest to the above. We spent this last year talking to friends and workers about issues that are "negative." We have found that there are some who are very critical of the system, feel that most overseers cannot be trusted, but admit that they only talk about it when it's safe, with like-minded people. There is one worker who even told us that he never talks about CSA and immorality in the ministry issues with other workers, because it's "not safe." Yet, he is very grieved about the problem. We would have never found out their opinions and concerns had we not brought up the issue ourselves and made them feel "safe" to talk about it. You bring up a good point-some people seem more 'safe' to approach and bring up certain topics to discuss. People sense that about one another. I can think of some people right away who are safe people...meaning, they would not judge you, condemn you or break confidentiality. People who you feel you can be open and honest with. Some people are just more 'open' than others. But, sometimes we ASSUME a certain person is unapproachable when really, they are more approachable and open than they are given credit for. fwiw-bop
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 20:03:00 GMT -5
Clearday ~ I wouldn't be surprised if such a person experiences a lot of cognitive dissonance due to bottled up emotions? It's probably mostly the other way around. Cognitive dissonance is pretty frustrating. I agree with both you and faune.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 20:06:19 GMT -5
It's probably mostly the other way around. Cognitive dissonance is pretty frustrating. I agree with both you and faune. . ... .. . careful there --agreeing with two different people at the same time might create a dissonance !
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Post by Gene on Apr 18, 2014 20:09:07 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism. The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers.Suddenly, I understand what "cognitive dissonance" means, and I find myself strangely attracted to it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 20:23:18 GMT -5
I agree with both you and faune. . ... .. . careful there --agreeing with two different people at the same time might create a dissonance ! Hah! Trying to play the accordian would create a cognitive dissonance, I would think...
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2014 21:56:42 GMT -5
No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers. So you reject the idea of having ‘a living faith in Jesus Christ’ which is what Christianity is all about. When I read your post a portion of Scripture came to mind that I think describes your mind set: [5] having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. [6] For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, [7] always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:5-7 ESV) There are many who want the blessings of Christianity without the commitment of being a follower of Jesus. On this particular day it is particularly relevant to quote our Lord Jesus Christ: [23] And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. [24] For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. [25] For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? (Luke 9:23-25 ESV) His listeners would have understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. Many times they had watched a man pass by carrying a cross and walking between two Roman soldiers knowing that he was headed for certain death. No, what I reject is your idea that someone could spend many years in the f&w movement and then, only when they leave, "come to a living faith in Christ". Perhaps you could post a portion of Scripture that grants you the ability to determine such. When it comes to arriving at a knowledge of the truth, it's good to think through these words by Mark Twain, "A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows." The corollary of Twain's statement is that if you attend church it's probably because you haven't arrived at a knowledge of the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 22:06:25 GMT -5
Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that very few people are genuinely interested in a person's TRUE reason(s) for leaving something, whether that means quitting a job or leaving a church or leaving a relationship. Sure, people are bound to be curious and there is bound to be speculation too...that is the natural, human thing to do. But genuine concern? I'm not saying nobody cares, but sometimes it's easier to reconcile the event or situation when you can slap a label on it. In the friend/worker context, I believe that when someone leaves the fellowship there is some genuine concern for the fate of that person's soul, but there is a lack in knowing how to approach someone who has left and there is an awkwardness. So, rather than feel awkward, many people just opt out of contact. So, real open discussion about the truth of the matter gets dropped. fwiw-bop When it comes to meetings, you are quite right that innies don't want to discover the truth as to why someone left, and no one is better off because of that, as you point out. In my business, and it should be in all businesses, it is completely essential to know why someone doesn't like something or chooses to buy from someone else. If you don't discover the truth, you cannot fix what is wrong and provide what people are expecting. Come to think of it, it should be exactly that way with people leaving a church or the meetings. When you fool yourself to think that there is nothing good to be learned in the truth of someone leaving, it will lead to inexorable decline of what you are offering.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 22:12:04 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism. The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers.You don't have to look very far to find a few atheists just as evangelical about convincing people there is no God just as hardcore believers who have the only right way! Come to think of it, the similarities are eerily substantial! For the most part, atheists don't proselytize and posture themselves as superior beings with superior ideas. I suppose the same could be said for believers. There are lots of similarities!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 18, 2014 22:24:59 GMT -5
No one like someone ramming their new found "betterness" down everyone's throat, whether we're talking an ex-smoker, weight loss or in the present case, a "better" religion. I suspect that the reason for that bitterness might be sparked by those who, to use your language "have come to a living faith in Christ" sending exit letters to those who aren't yet up to "their" level. Any reasonable person within the f&w would feel quite bitter in reading that kind of thing, or your book, to cite one example. I suppose you would blame the friends for what is actually a perfectly understandable reaction, and that is the problem with the main of Christianity. Everyone thinks their denomination is better than everyone else's, which seems to be the foundation of the religion, delight in running down others. Of course, atheists have gotten past all that nonsense, which is why I personally believe heaven's doors will be open to the atheists before all other comers.You don't have to look very far to find a few atheists just as evangelical about convincing people there is no God just as hardcore believers who have the only right way! Come to think of it, the similarities are eerily substantial! For the most part, atheists don't proselytize and posture themselves as superior beings with superior ideas. I suppose the same could be said for believers. There are lots of similarities! A bit of doubt is good for both camps.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 18, 2014 22:29:27 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism.The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. That statement seems to show how little that you know about why & how a person becomes an atheist!
One doesn't just simply drift along into atheism.!
People are more apt to "drift" along and stay in the religion than they are to do any research into the whole subject of religion.
Atheism comes from examining religion and why people are religious, what those people believe and why, as well as how irrational so many of those beliefs are.
One doesn't just "drift" into atheism.
As someone who did research and wrote a thesis I would think you would understand that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 22:38:52 GMT -5
Quote - "There are many who want the blessings of Christianity without the commitment of being a follower of Jesus. On this particular day it is particularly relevant to quote our Lord Jesus Christ: And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? (Luke 9:23-25 ESV)"
Who do YOU think this verse means, Irvine?
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Post by jondough on Apr 18, 2014 23:09:38 GMT -5
I'm starting to think that its no longer coincidence that every time this poster/book author/researcher gets called on the carpet.....he disappears?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 0:19:25 GMT -5
real life may have gotten in the way...
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 19, 2014 3:56:04 GMT -5
Throughout my research for my thesis (and subsequent book) Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement I had many accounts related to me of the bitterness that emanated from those within the 2x2 movement against those who left. Those who leave the movement fall into different categories but can be broadly divided into two main areas. There are those who leave when they realise that the movement is theologically flawed and they come to a living faith in Christ and become involved in another church group. Then there are those leave the movement and are without faith and simply drift along, some going into atheism.The bitterness from those within the movement seems to be more directed against those who come to a living faith in Christ and are involved in an evangelical church. That statement seems to show how little that you know about why & how a person becomes an atheist!
One doesn't just simply drift along into atheism.!
People are more apt to "drift" along and stay in the religion than they are to do any research into the whole subject of religion.
Atheism comes from examining religion and why people are religious, what those people believe and why, as well as how irrational so many of those beliefs are.
One doesn't just "drift" into atheism.
As someone who did research and wrote a thesis I would think you would understand that.
I
I know quite a bit how people end up atheists despite what you may think so I have clear idea as to how they reached their worldview. I have lots of friends who are atheists, others agnostics and we have fairly lively but agreeable discussions. You say that atheism comes from examining religion, etc. This is partly true but what I find on most occasions with those who reject Christianity is that they will have read just about everything that rejects Christianity but rarely have they read the Bible in any detail. They will have read Dawkins and others from times past and are prepared to accept the authenticity of their theses. Few, if any, will have read Professor Alister McGrath’s response to Dawkin’s God Delusion or watched the debate between Professor John Lennox and Richard Dawkins in Alabama a few years ago. Atheism is every bit as much a religion as any other worldview.
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