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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 14:30:29 GMT -5
This author I speak of above has found through studies that reason is the servant of intuition or emotion. That we rarely look for material that will prove what we already believe to be right, wrong. Other people, however, are great at getting us to look at things differently and they are usually the instrument of change of belief in ourselves. Even rarer he states does one just come to the epiphany on their own. I guess that's why other people are so important to us. They help us evolve and grow and make us look at life differently. The bolded above is certainly a stimulating thought but I would argue the opposite. We can reason our emotions in any direction we choose....we can even speed up or slow down our heart rate based on what we choose to think about. The mind is the gateway for all emotions. Intuition, in my view, is simply sub-concious reason of the mind. They are thoughts and reasonings we just haven't consciously formed yet, if ever. I think he is right though that outside stimulation is the main impetus for change, but it's certainly not the only impetus. Introverted people are particularly adept at sitting back, reviewing and re-adjusting without others around....preferably without others around! For me, reason is definitely the servant of intuition or emotion. Maybe it's kinda a male/female thing? Or perhaps just a difference between people? I would never trust a "fact" in the face of an opposite "intuition". I've operated this way my whole life and it has served me well so far. To me, the mind/reason is a poor paltry thing (though it can make a good servant). (But maybe it is possible this whole thing is a chicken/egg argument.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 14:40:36 GMT -5
The bolded above is certainly a stimulating thought but I would argue the opposite. We can reason our emotions in any direction we choose....we can even speed up or slow down our heart rate based on what we choose to think about. The mind is the gateway for all emotions. Intuition, in my view, is simply sub-concious reason of the mind. They are thoughts and reasonings we just haven't consciously formed yet, if ever. I think he is right though that outside stimulation is the main impetus for change, but it's certainly not the only impetus. Introverted people are particularly adept at sitting back, reviewing and re-adjusting without others around....preferably without others around! For me, reason is definitely the servant of intuition or emotion. Maybe it's kinda a male/female thing? Or perhaps just a difference between people? I would never trust a "fact" in the face of an opposite "intuition". I've operated this way my whole life and it has served me well so far. To me, the mind/reason is a poor paltry thing (though it can make a good servant). (But maybe it is possible this whole thing is a chicken/egg argument.) Could be a male/female thing, not sure. I do know that I could feel happy or sad about the same event depending upon how I processed and reasoned out the event. I find myself constantly smoothing out extremes of emotion by a thought process. What is true though is that if any person allows themselves to get generally bummed out or extremely happy about one particular thing, the emotion will almost certainly affect reasoning on unrelated matters.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 15:07:31 GMT -5
I do know that I could feel happy or sad about the same event depending upon how I processed and reasoned out the event. Exactly. It's a choice you make, how you are going to process/reason out an event. A choice. Yours. To examine this intuition/feeling thing further: I have been a voracious reader all my life. Whenever I've had an opportunity, when an author I've read has been coming to town on a book tour/lecture, I've made an effort to go and see them. I don't need to meet them, or talk to them (though sometimes I do). I just want to be in the same room as they are for 10-15 mins. That tells me far more about the person than me sitting down and critically evaluating their body of work. (For me, it's the difference of being able to look at a full color photograph of a scene (thousands of pieces of information) or to sit and listen to someone describe it in words (limited information).)
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 15:25:57 GMT -5
I'm in the involuntarist camp. The loss of my faith in the God I was brought up to believe took me by surprise. The bubble burst and in that moment I understood all at once that there had been a bubble, and that there would be no putting that bubble back together. There was no moment of "should I stay or should I go?" Right. You said it so well!
I couldn't have put that bubble together again.
Much like Humpty Dumpty. "All the King's/Queen's men/women couldn't have put it it back again"
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 15:34:51 GMT -5
I'm in the involuntarist camp. The loss of my faith in the God I was brought up to believe took me by surprise. The bubble burst and in that moment I understood all at once that there had been a bubble, and that there would be no putting that bubble back together. There was no moment of "should I stay or should I go?" When I think back on that, it was like that for me too. I left the 2x2's because I couldn't worship their god, but I still believed it existed. Then one day the belief in god just disappeared, like it had never been there and left me wondering how I ever could have believed. It felt a little like the clouds parted and the sun came through. Right, you also say it so well and that sunshine felt so warm & comfortable!
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 15:42:10 GMT -5
The bolded above is certainly a stimulating thought but I would argue the opposite. We can reason our emotions in any direction we choose....we can even speed up or slow down our heart rate based on what we choose to think about. The mind is the gateway for all emotions. Intuition, in my view, is simply sub-concious reason of the mind. They are thoughts and reasonings we just haven't consciously formed yet, if ever. I think he is right though that outside stimulation is the main impetus for change, but it's certainly not the only impetus. Introverted people are particularly adept at sitting back, reviewing and re-adjusting without others around....preferably without others around! For me, reason is definitely the servant of intuition or emotion. Maybe it's kinda a male/female thing? Or perhaps just a difference between people? I would never trust a "fact" in the face of an opposite "intuition". I've operated this way my whole life and it has served me well so far. To me, the mind/reason is a poor paltry thing (though it can make a good servant). (But maybe it is possible this whole thing is a chicken/egg argument.) -------------------- "99%" of every decision I make is done on autopilot - acting without thinking. Call it intuition. If I had to stop and reason out every decision, I could not function. Sometimes acting first without reasoning protects us from harm. We have an evolutionary bias to pareidolia; we see stick - think snake, we see the grass move - think lion. Sometimes acting just on intuition can save our life. But acting on intuition alone or over reason, contrary to facts, can cause harm. whatstheharm.netWhere I think we differ is; When facts & reason contradicts intuition; I go with reason - a destroyer of superstions.
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Post by matisse on Apr 13, 2014 16:37:24 GMT -5
That's truly remarkable, in my own estimation, considering people tend to go the other way around, becoming religious in latter years? I am not aware of data that establishes this as the trend.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 16:55:13 GMT -5
I do know that I could feel happy or sad about the same event depending upon how I processed and reasoned out the event. Exactly. It's a choice you make, how you are going to process/reason out an event. A choice. Yours. To examine this intuition/feeling thing further: I have been a voracious reader all my life. Whenever I've had an opportunity, when an author I've read has been coming to town on a book tour/lecture, I've made an effort to go and see them. I don't need to meet them, or talk to them (though sometimes I do). I just want to be in the same room as they are for 10-15 mins. That tells me far more about the person than me sitting down and critically evaluating their body of work. (For me, it's the difference of being able to look at a full color photograph of a scene (thousands of pieces of information) or to sit and listen to someone describe it in words (limited information).) Sharon ~ I found that to be true with two well known authors I met at Christian Women's Conference in Nashville one year ~ Nancy Leigh DeMoss, Mary Whelchel, Kay Arthur, and Stormie O'Martian. That women's retreat for three days would beat out any 2x2 convention I ever attended over the years for its worship and encouraging messages from these different women, with they only radio shows and published books. I used to listen to Mary Whelchel's Christian Working Woman and Nancy Demoss's "Revive Our Hearts" broadcasts for a number of years along with Kay Arthur's Bible studies on Precepts for Life. These were favorite radio broadcasts of mine in the past while I did chores around the home. I also loved Stormie O'Martian's books on prayer and believe I own all them in my book collection.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 16:59:54 GMT -5
That's truly remarkable, in my own estimation, considering people tend to go the other way around, becoming religious in latter years? I am not aware of data that establishes this as the trend. Matisse ~ I'm not aware of any specific data, just from what I noticed myself over the years. I'm sorry I didn't state that fact earlier. It just seems to me that people are more prone to attend church when young and living home and seem to drop off in attendance during college years and afterwards. Many don't come back until they have kids of their own to raise and want them to get some exposure to church like themselves when young. Some don't return to church until much later in their life for comfort and the social contacts it provides. I know a few people around my age bracket who fit this description, returning in their 50's and older. As far as trends in America, that remains to be seen, I guess?
P.S. ~ I just found this poll on church attendance among the young and how it decreases during the college years and thereafter. It's published recently by Lifeway Books in Nashville, TN. Hopefully, you can at least see the decline among the younger generation during and after college attendance? Some do return later on in their late 20's or 30's and continue, but not usually on the same basis when they lived home. I don't see any statistics on older people in church, but see a lot more of them myself than the younger ones I just described and on a more regular basis. I guess when people settle down and start raising a family, they may start attending church again? I know that was true in my case, too!
www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=26202
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 17:48:43 GMT -5
That's truly remarkable, in my own estimation, considering people tend to go the other way around, becoming religious in latter years? I am not aware of data that establishes this as the trend. Cramming for the final? The older you are, the more likely you are religious, but this is due to the decline in religiosity. Several studies conclude "People do not necessarily become more religious as they age." Studies show the more religious you are, the more you fear death. Perhaps as you near death, and are already religious, you become more convicted? This happen to my mother. I would not take away any hope to the dying, if it brings them comfort. cas.umkc.edu/casww/sa/spirituality.htmwww.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797237
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Post by matisse on Apr 13, 2014 18:40:38 GMT -5
I am not aware of data that establishes this as the trend. Cramming for the final? The older you are, the more likely you are religious, but this is due to the decline in religiosity. Several studies conclude "People do not necessarily become more religious as they age." Studies show the more religious you are, the more you fear death. Perhaps as you near death, and are already religious, you become more convicted? This happen to my mother. I would not take away any hope to the dying, if it brings them comfort. cas.umkc.edu/casww/sa/spirituality.htmwww.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797237That makes more sense to me. I, too, would not wish away any hope to the dying if it brings them comfort.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 18:43:55 GMT -5
This author I speak of above has found through studies that reason is the servant of intuition or emotion. That we rarely look for material that will prove what we already believe to be right, wrong. Other people, however, are great at getting us to look at things differently and they are usually the instrument of change of belief in ourselves. Even rarer he states does one just come to the epiphany on their own. I guess that's why other people are so important to us. They help us evolve and grow and make us look at life differently. The bolded above is certainly a stimulating thought but I would argue the opposite. We can reason our emotions in any direction we choose....we can even speed up or slow down our heart rate based on what we choose to think about. The mind is the gateway for all emotions. Intuition, in my view, is simply sub-concious reason of the mind. They are thoughts and reasonings we just haven't consciously formed yet, if ever. I think he is right though that outside stimulation is the main impetus for change, but it's certainly not the only impetus. Introverted people are particularly adept at sitting back, reviewing and re-adjusting without others around....preferably without others around! I would have thought so too CD, but studies do show that we do not use our reasoning as much as we think we do. If something disgusts us for example because we've been brought up to believe it's wrong, we will likely say it is morally wrong, even if it does no harm to anyone. It also seems that we tend to be more critical of things if we are in an environment that stinks for example, and if we are asked to wash our hands before answering some questions the studies show we are more likely to be overly puritan about things. It's an interesting book. Those are just a few of the things they have found out about us when we think we are using reason to make moral decisions.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 19:41:41 GMT -5
There’s nothing magical about a belief – it is just a thought that you keep on thinking. Over and over again. If you can choose your thought, then you can choose your belief. How many times would you have to think it is true to believe that the traditional story of Santa Claus is true? Or that the earth is flat? Or that 1 + 1 = 3?
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 19:59:10 GMT -5
I would have thought so too CD, but studies do show that we do not use our reasoning as much as we think we do. There is another aspect to this as well. At the Max Planck Institute John-Dylan Haynes found that that decisions are made by unconscious mind up to 7 seconds before the conscious mind is informed. Test subjects were told to press a button with either their right or left hand and try to remember when they made the decision which hand to use. By looking at brain activity the researchers could determine which hand would be used well before the subjects said they made up their mind. The original work was done a few years ago but follow-up research have verified the results and added data. It raises the question of free will - are you making decisions or being told what decisions have been made? Have the reptilians invaded our brains and are making decisions for us? More info here - but not about the reptilians!.
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 20:11:49 GMT -5
There’s nothing magical about a belief – it is just a thought that you keep on thinking. Over and over again. If you can choose your thought, then you can choose your belief. How many times would you have to think it is true to believe that the traditional story of Santa Claus is true? Or that the earth is flat? Or that 1 + 1 = 3? Carol Sagan quote
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 13, 2014 20:35:44 GMT -5
There’s nothing magical about a belief – it is just a thought that you keep on thinking. Over and over again. If you can choose your thought, then you can choose your belief. How many times would you have to think it is true to believe that the traditional story of Santa Claus is true? Or that the earth is flat? Or that 1 + 1 = 3? Depends how badly you want to believe it! Is there not a flat earth society?
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 20:53:13 GMT -5
How many times would you have to think it is true to believe that the traditional story of Santa Claus is true? Or that the earth is flat? Or that 1 + 1 = 3? Depends how badly you want to believe it! :) Is there not a flat earth society? There is and it sounds like they have a good time. Make it more personal. Think on it and make yourself believe that gravity does not work. Then when you have you have made yourself believe step off a tall structure.
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 21:31:49 GMT -5
I would have thought so too CD, but studies do show that we do not use our reasoning as much as we think we do. There is another aspect to this as well. At the Max Planck Institute John-Dylan Haynes found that that decisions are made by unconscious mind up to 7 seconds before the conscious mind is informed. Test subjects were told to press a button with either their right or left hand and try to remember when they made the decision which hand to use. By looking at brain activity the researchers could determine which hand would be used well before the subjects said they made up their mind. The original work was done a few years ago but follow-up research have verified the results and added data. It raises the question of free will - are you making decisions or being told what decisions have been made? Have the reptilians invaded our brains and are making decisions for us? More info here - but not about the reptilians!.Yes, I'd read about that. Thought it was interesting and it did cross my mind about just how much free will we really have vs how much we think we have. My brain is seeing something, interpreting it and has made up it's mind before I am even conscious there was something to make a decision about. However, if we weren't made that way to some degree, a lot of us would be dead. It is that automatic processing and reacting to danger that probably has saved a few lives.
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 21:47:45 GMT -5
There is another aspect to this as well. At the Max Planck Institute John-Dylan Haynes found that that decisions are made by unconscious mind up to 7 seconds before the conscious mind is informed. Test subjects were told to press a button with either their right or left hand and try to remember when they made the decision which hand to use. By looking at brain activity the researchers could determine which hand would be used well before the subjects said they made up their mind. The original work was done a few years ago but follow-up research have verified the results and added data. It raises the question of free will - are you making decisions or being told what decisions have been made? Have the reptilians invaded our brains and are making decisions for us? More info here - but not about the reptilians!.Yes, I'd read about that. Thought it was interesting and it did cross my mind about just how much free will we really have vs how much we think we have. My brain is seeing something, interpreting it and has made up it's mind before I am even conscious there was something to make a decision about. However, if we weren't made that way to some degree, a lot of us would be dead. It is that automatic processing and reacting to danger that probably has saved a few lives. ------------- I read Sam Harris book on free will. He gives a lot for the reader to think about especially as in the criminal justice system and those disadvantage in society by no fault of there own. io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-will
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 21:50:28 GMT -5
Yes, I'd read about that. Thought it was interesting and it did cross my mind about just how much free will we really have vs how much we think we have. My brain is seeing something, interpreting it and has made up it's mind before I am even conscious there was something to make a decision about. However, if we weren't made that way to some degree, a lot of us would be dead. It is that automatic processing and reacting to danger that probably has saved a few lives. ------------- I read Sam Harris book on free will. He gives a lot for the reader to think about especially as in the criminal justice system and those disadvantage in society by no fault of there own. io9.com/5975778/scientific-evidence-that-you-probably-dont-have-free-willYes It does make you think about our justice system. I've thought for a long time that it should be more rehab focused than punishment focused. I recognize even if we don't have free will, we still need to separate those who harm others away from society so we can prevent that from happening, but do we need to treat them with such disgust and judgment?
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Post by xna on Apr 13, 2014 21:54:54 GMT -5
Yes It does make you think about our justice system. I've thought for a long time that it should be more rehab focused than punishment focused. I recognize even if we don't have free will, we still need to separate those who harm others away from society so we can prevent that from happening, but do we need to treat them with such disgust and judgment? -------- I don't have the answer, perhaps in the USA prison is a for profit business, or it's our drug laws?
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 22:01:03 GMT -5
Yes It does make you think about our justice system. I've thought for a long time that it should be more rehab focused than punishment focused. I recognize even if we don't have free will, we still need to separate those who harm others away from society so we can prevent that from happening, but do we need to treat them with such disgust and judgment? -------- I don't have the answer, perhaps in the USA prison is a for profit business, or it's our drug laws? They are never going to win the drug war, that's for sure. The harder things get, the more people are going to look for some kind of 'medication'. And there will always be someone there to provide that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 22:08:03 GMT -5
Yes It does make you think about our justice system. I've thought for a long time that it should be more rehab focused than punishment focused. I recognize even if we don't have free will, we still need to separate those who harm others away from society so we can prevent that from happening, but do we need to treat them with such disgust and judgment? -------- I don't have the answer, perhaps in the USA prison is a for profit business, or it's our drug laws? It's partly your limited healthcare system. Prisons in the US house a lot of mental health sufferers. The healthcare system isn't picking them up, so off to prison they go when they mess up. Other advanced countries send them into health treatments. They get their drugs but they are legal ones.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 22:33:58 GMT -5
I am not aware of data that establishes this as the trend. Cramming for the final? The older you are, the more likely you are religious, but this is due to the decline in religiosity. Several studies conclude "People do not necessarily become more religious as they age." Studies show the more religious you are, the more you fear death. Perhaps as you near death, and are already religious, you become more convicted? This happen to my mother. I would not take away any hope to the dying, if it brings them comfort. cas.umkc.edu/casww/sa/spirituality.htmwww.amazon.com/Society-without-God-Religious-Contentment/dp/0814797237 Xna ~ I have had a few close calls with death in recent years, so I may be "cramming for my final exam?" However, as I have aged, I definitely have lost a lot of interest in religion in general with all its does and don't and have gained more interest in "spirituality" as a result. Perhaps that's why NDE's have fascinated me in recent years? I still believe in a Creator God behind this universe, but I'm not really convinced that everything we read in the Bible can be regarded as "God inspired." I also don't believe the Bible is inerrant and without errors, because it has been proven not to be true. There are so many discrepancies and contradictions found within Bible from my own research, that I take it cautiously these days in stating what I believe. I feel I'm evolving in my spiritual journey and hopefully growing in knowledge and godly wisdom along the way.
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 22:42:25 GMT -5
-------- I don't have the answer, perhaps in the USA prison is a for profit business, or it's our drug laws? It's partly your limited healthcare system. Prisons in the US house a lot of mental health sufferers. The healthcare system isn't picking them up, so off to prison they go when they mess up. Other advanced countries send them into health treatments. They get their drugs but they are legal ones.Clearday ~ I feel you are so correct in your assessment here! There are a number of people behind bars due to mental illness contributing to their criminal behavior. A number of this criminals suffer from bipolar illness, PTSD, schizophrenia, and different personality disorders which causes them to act out inappropriately. They do need medical attention, but fail to get it within the prison system in the U.S.A. due to the "limited healthcare programs" within the U.S.A., compared to other countries more advanced in this area. It's really a shame that a leading nation in the world also has a deficient healthcare system in place to help those in need.
We have just started to address this area under Obama-care, but this new program definitely needs a lot of overhaul in its structure to make it cost effective and beneficial for those who sign up for this program. However, it is a start, although there's plenty of room for improvement in the future.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 22:53:21 GMT -5
(Your choice of an arithmetic equation is a poor example, because most things in life cannot be reduced to common agreement like the study of quantities.) Yes, that was definitely a poor example, -in fact not an example at all.
One doesn't have a choice as to whether you will or won't believe in a such a mathematical equation.
Not if you plan to build a house or a bridge!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 22:57:29 GMT -5
--------------- Let's say you do NOT believe in reincarnation, yet 1.2 billion today do. Your Hindu friend asked you to "just will yourself into believing in reincarnation". I guess it wouldn't work for you. Belief in reincarnation doesn't work that way for me because I see no evidence of reincarnation. But If I were born & raised into a Hindu culture it would be hard not believe in reincarnation, manly for social reasons. I probably wouldn't give it serious consideration. This also points to the foolishness of Pascal's wager. Can you decide you believe in a paranormal being simply to hedge your bet in the event you die and discover there is an afterlife. Doesn't it seem that a paranormal being would see through this ploy? I love your new avatar, rational!
You are quite a handsome man!
could we meet for lunch some day?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2014 23:07:12 GMT -5
Yes It does make you think about our justice system. I've thought for a long time that it should be more rehab focused than punishment focused. I recognize even if we don't have free will, we still need to separate those who harm others away from society so we can prevent that from happening, but do we need to treat them with such disgust and judgment? -------- I don't have the answer, perhaps in the USA prison is a for profit business, or it's our drug laws? Yes, our prison system IS in the profit business.CORRECTIONS:
THE PRIVATE PRISON - THE PRISON BOOM - ... private corporations are once again owning and operating prisons for profit. ...
www.correctionsproject.com/corrections/pris_priv.htm
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