Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 19:13:51 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Jesus only is our message was changed to Jesus is our only message? Too often, workers were their only message. But I have also been to gospel meetings where Jesus was the focus especially if a first time visitor (outsider) was present.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 12, 2014 22:36:26 GMT -5
Maybe because "Jesus only" leaves out God and the Holy Spirit?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2014 0:40:13 GMT -5
Maybe because "Jesus only" leaves out God and the Holy Spirit? So does "only Jesus".
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 13, 2014 1:01:55 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Jesus only is our message was changed to Jesus is our only message? Too often, workers were their only message. But I have also been to gospel meetings where Jesus was the focus especially if a first time visitor (outsider) was present. It could be also that they are leery of being seen to promote the idea that 'Jesus only' is the way to salvation. It lines up too closely to the 'grace alone' doctrine which, as Bert would say, 'offends them'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 1:45:10 GMT -5
Maybe because "Jesus only" leaves out God and the Holy Spirit? Emy, you bother me. I am going to put that in my quotes. If that hymn only mentioned God and the Holy Spirit, would you say "but they left Jesus out!"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 5:10:57 GMT -5
Quote - "Too often, workers were their only message."
A standard one hour mission will reference Jesus an average 120 times. I have encountered ONE personal Worker testimony in a Gospel service.
Can you explain how you came to the above conclusion?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2014 22:29:51 GMT -5
Maybe because "Jesus only" leaves out God and the Holy Spirit? Emy, you bother me. I am going to put that in my quotes. If that hymn only mentioned God and the Holy Spirit, would you say "but they left Jesus out!"I agree -- why does every hymn have to deal with EVERYTHING? There are hymn and God. There are hymns about the holy spirit. There are hymns that aren't about any of these entities.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 22:47:33 GMT -5
Ross you are using strawman arguments. You say we see Jesus only as a man and a preacher. That is not right.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 13, 2014 22:57:12 GMT -5
I don't see 'Jesus only' and 'only message' being alike. There is much more in the gospel message than 'only Jesus,' but the focus is totally on what Jesus revealed about his Father's word and plan. Maybe it's a shortened way of saying Jesus' message is our only message.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 13, 2014 23:00:52 GMT -5
Maybe because "Jesus only" leaves out God and the Holy Spirit? Emy, you bother me. I am going to put that in my quotes. If that hymn only mentioned God and the Holy Spirit, would you say "but they left Jesus out!"I'm not surprised I bother you. You bother me, too.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 23:24:35 GMT -5
Yes, Jesus was often mentioned in gospel meetings. But what did they say about Him - who did they say He was? Was he just a wonderful elder brother who endured until the end as we should keep faithful to the end or was he "Lord, Redeemer, Saviour, King, Mighty God etc". Dennis' posts on this are wonderful to read. It was lovely to hear on Palm Sunday yesterday of Jesus setting his eyes on Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives and asking for a young donkey to be brought to Him - to fulfil OT Scripture (Matthew 21): Say to Daughter Zion, ‘See, your king comes to you, gentle and riding on a donkey, and on a colt, the foal of a donkey.’ Jesus indeed knew He was King and soon he would say that "all authority in heaven and earth has been given unto me..." I could count a hundred times over the years in gospel meetings in the 2x2's where a worker spoke from John 1-12 but never went on to verse 13. Emy, Jesus only does not leave out God or the Holy Spirit. Go through the numerous places in the Scripture where the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are working in unison together as one God of all. If the workers aren't prepared to admit who Jesus really is then they have simply boxed up their version of Jesus in the gift wrapping and ribbon they have purchased. However, their gift is not free. You have to pledge allegiance to their ministry, decry other christian churches and accept that the gift can only come from a worker. The real Jesus presents His gift freely - he has already paid the ultimate price. He justifies and saves us because we accept Him as King and ruler over our life. We know that the gift is only HIS to give, we pledge allegiance to Him only, we gladly accept other Christians that HE has saved and grafted into the true vine. Ross ~ Great post expressing what Jesus' sacrifice (and not the workers) really means to the rest of the Christian world. Honestly, there's quite a difference between the gospel message Jesus came to present and what workers present in gospel meetings today. apart from some man-made system of worship which calls itself "the Truth" and disavows all other Christians outside their flock as being deceived and on their way to Hell. Exactly what "good news" can really to be found in such a group so exclusive in their views and condemning of outsiders?
|
|
|
Post by fred on Apr 13, 2014 23:43:00 GMT -5
Emy, you bother me. I am going to put that in my quotes. If that hymn only mentioned God and the Holy Spirit, would you say "but they left Jesus out!" I'm not surprised I bother you. You bother me, too. Aw, c'mon now, put your hand up if there is anyone Bert doesn't bother! Sorry Bert.
|
|
|
Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 23:51:23 GMT -5
I'm not surprised I bother you. You bother me, too. Aw, c'mon now, put your hand up if there is anyone Bert doesn't bother! Sorry Bert. Fred ~ I believe that's Bert's mission here on TMB ~ to test the waters! However, I feel he has mellowed a lot over the years due to the rest of us wearing off his rough edges with our comments. I actually like the new Bert, but I do miss his nifty cartoons in the past! He really has artistic talent and a sense of humor to go along with it.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 0:06:26 GMT -5
I don't see 'Jesus only' and 'only message' being alike. There is much more in the gospel message than 'only Jesus,' but the focus is totally on what Jesus revealed about his Father's word and plan. Maybe it's a shortened way of saying Jesus' message is our only message. Okay. Explain to me the difference between (a) Jesus only is our message; and (b) Jesus is our only message. Isn't it the same difference as between (a) Satisfaction only is our concern; and (b) Satisfaction is our only concern.
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on Apr 14, 2014 1:16:17 GMT -5
I have sat in a Gospel meeting where the opening hymn was the good old Number 2..."Jesus is our only message", and that the was the last time the word Jesus, or reference to him was used apart from to close a prayer with "For Jesus' sake"
I mean c'mon....I went away disgusted...and didn't bother going again, while that set of workers was around, for quite some months.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 2:32:54 GMT -5
Marrowway (that in itself is a mockery of what Jesus said) You can get preachers/ministers in public forums who would never BREATH the word "Jesus" as it is considered irrelevant to whatever cause the church is pushing. And the church wants to be relevant.
But extreme claims require extreme evidence. To back your preposterous claim can you tell us: what mission this was? what date? who took it? did you take notes?
What hymns did they sing that had no reference to Jesus? What did the workers pray about? Global warming? Poverty? Whales? What were the topics the Workers covered? Could it have been about the OT - Moses, Abraham, David? Did any "non-Jesus" character not refer symobically back to Jesus?
Thanks in anticipation.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 3:36:46 GMT -5
So who has the "real version" Ross? Should it be an academic question, or a life/living question?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 4:30:07 GMT -5
Ross I consider your questions important.
Quote - "Of course, we have to show His death until He comes. The best way to do this would be I presume to worship Him in spirit and in truth...and to tell others what His death means for us and what it can mean for them? That was His last command before He ascended."
Worship Him, yes of course. But to ONLY tell others of His death without living it yourself? "Showing His death..." means more than speaking of His resurrection. There are two other "deaths" here - His dying daily, and the preacher's dying daily, no? "I affirm, brethren, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily." Paul.
Quote - "If we are in Christ, his garments of righteousness cover our sin - we wear them. We also bear His cross and share His shame. After all He paid the ultimate price."
We aren't Christ, we can't be perfect, but we can be willing for the experiences and trials which EVERYONE who lives in Christ must face. "Offenses must come..." "Whosover fals upon this stone will be broken..."
Quote - "I have posted the full notes before but why did Colin Sanders, a senior Australian worker labouring in South America speak at Brian Doecke's funeral in 2011..."
What do you think of Paul's comments regards the Ministry he was in? He spoke a lot along these lines.
Quote - "This is really clear Bert - we can do exactly what Jesus did, go into the work and keep the faith until the end..." Bert, this is very poor doctrine - it's not surprising so many friends are confused about who Jesus is when you get muddled teaching like this."
Are they confused, really? We hold that Jesus is our elder brother, a Minister who instigated a 2x2 ministry, a perfect man, The Example of a good life, the Son of God, the Redeemer who paid the price for our sins. And many more accolades and adjectives I am sure.
Quote - "We can be servants of many things here in this world that takes our heart here, but there is a crown of glory awaiting in the future. The work of the servants (workers) is the best paid for all Eternity".
Okay... hard one. Who do you think will, metaphorically, sit on the "right hand of Christ"? All sorts of names come to mind - Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, etc.. Most of these were servants of God who preached. Jesus gave a clue (maybe) when he spoke so glowingly of John the Baptist - the first Christian Preacher? Dunno, maybe some were offended at Jesus' accolades of John. And maybe some were offended when Jesus spoke of his twelves Apostles sitting on twelves thrones, judging the tribes of Israel. And what did Jesus say of those men who gave their all for the ministry? And would you be offended if I said those who give the most, also gain the most in the Kingdom of heaven?
Whatever church you now belong to should also believe this. An RCC should believe their own Popes, theologians and martyrs should be rewarded greater.
Quote - "In the NT Jesus called it Phariseeism."
I see Phariseemism as being ornately gowned, paid, religious leaders who preach church traditions over the simplicity of Christ.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 7:37:30 GMT -5
Do you accept the validity of Paul - the ministry he was called into, his doctrine, his claim of having been called by Jesus, his epistles and his rules?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 11:08:35 GMT -5
Do you accept the validity of Paul - the ministry he was called into, his doctrine, his claim of having been called by Jesus, his epistles and his rules? Galatians 1:1&2 - "Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead - and all the brothers with me..." vs. 11&12 - "I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by relevation from Jesus Christ." vs. 15-20 - "But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Then after 3 years I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him 15 days. I saw none of the other apostles - only James, the Lord's brother. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie." Galatians 2:1&2 - "Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles." Doesn't seem like Paul had a companion until he'd been "in the work" a while...definitely 3 years, maybe even the first 17 years. He didn't even know or see the other apostles for the first 3 years. He felt moved to share the gospel of Christ after a personal encounter with Him and so went and started preaching. Doesn't really sound much like the workers today...he didn't need to "offer" for the work to anyone, be assigned to a field, have a companion...seems he was led by the Spirit.
|
|
|
Post by mdm on Apr 14, 2014 12:01:29 GMT -5
Does anyone know why Jesus only is our message was changed to Jesus is our only message? Too often, workers were their only message. But I have also been to gospel meetings where Jesus was the focus especially if a first time visitor (outsider) was present. Shortly after we professed, a non-professing, but church-going friend asked us to put her in touch with the workers in her area and had several visits with them. Then, she wrote to us, saying: "They keep talking about the 2x2 ministry and not about Jesus. Is this the church of Jesus, or of the 2x2 preachers? It seems that they want me to believe that preachers have to go 2x2 and that they can't have a home." She was confused. So, we wrote to the workers and naively asked them to please, talk more about Jesus with her. Their answer was: "...Sad when a person is obviously needy yet not have enough faith to trust in the One who can meet that need. Maybe she will need to go through a few more of life's disappointments first."
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 14:00:03 GMT -5
Okay. Explain to me the difference between (a) Jesus only is our message; and (b) Jesus is our only message. Isn't it the same difference as between (a) Satisfaction only is our concern; and (b) Satisfaction is our only concern. There isn't any difference. Either way the workers should not sing the hymn. It is very clear that "Jesus is not their only message" or "Jesus only is not their message". If they were truthful they would sing "Our version of Jesus is our only message" How is "our version of Jesus is our only message" only relevant to the 2x2's Ross. As an outsider I see that to be relevant with all Christian denominations. That's what they think. I rarely agree with Bert, but I think he does have a point this time and your comment that makes it look like your Church knows better makes me chuckle. And on it goes.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 17:20:42 GMT -5
Do you accept the validity of Paul - the ministry he was called into, his doctrine, his claim of having been called by Jesus, his epistles and his rules? Not entirely.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 17:28:53 GMT -5
How is "our version of Jesus is our only message" only relevant to the 2x2's Ross. As an outsider I see that to be relevant with all Christian denominations. That's what they think. I rarely agree with Bert, but I think he does have a point this time and your comment that makes it look like your Church knows better makes me chuckle. And on it goes. Snow - it is not just relevant to the Christian church that I attend. One thing that is common among all Christian denominations is who Jesus is. The only sects that I know of that do not uphold one God in three persons and Jesus as God, Lord, Ruler, King etc are the 2x2's. Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormans and the Christadelphians (and they don't believe in grace). So Christian denominations simply do not differ on who Jesus is. They might differ on some other things but who Jesus is isn't one of them. This issue was and is so important to the Christian church that beliefs around this area determined whether a church was Christian or whether people who didn't believe it were in fact Christians. I think Bert is great value but I think at the moment Bert will call Jesus many wonderful things but he doesn't seem to call Him God or King. Christians globally naturally have a problem with this because they believe that it undermines Christ and brings Him down to man's level - it emphasises His humanity at the expense of His divinity or deity. As a result it is often a starting point of the "what do you believe" conversation? After all, it is called Christianity. The point is, they are all Christians, they just don't think Jesus was God. And, in this area, no one knows who Jesus really was so it seems rather presumptuous of one denomination that does believe in the Trinity to say a denomination that does not, wrong.
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on Apr 14, 2014 17:39:50 GMT -5
It was a combined Gospel mission, I think in Feb 2009, led by Max Goldsack, and the other speaker was Sheena Easton.
I cannot remember the other hymns, not what was preached (it was all OT stuff, and nothing about pointing to Jesus....all OT battles and stuff) and no, why would I take notes when it held no appeal, or my interest?
A couple of other people commented on the same as what I noticed, one mentioned that you got the impression, if the monotone preaching hadn't put you to sleep, that Jesus was more of an embodiment of Workers, Meetings and the system, rather than the Son of Man and the Son of God, because you could draw that line if you wished.
For one of the friends, it was his last Gospel meeting, as he left the fellowship after that.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 17:40:03 GMT -5
Do you accept the validity of Paul - the ministry he was called into, his doctrine, his claim of having been called by Jesus, his epistles and his rules? Yes - do you? The Jesus that Paul presents is quite different to the one the workers present. Paul's "rules" are in the context of our response to God's grace - just like the old law which Christ fulfilled. If you follow Paul's commands to the letter of what he says when a female worker attends your meeting do you ask her to not usurp authority over the male elder in taking the meeting (it's nothing to do with this thread but just interested as you appear to be a stickler for rules and I'm wondering how many you keep?) How are you going with all Paul's commands? How many do you have to keep in order to be saved? I'm not being smart but am being deadly serious. Really, not to worry, no one is preaching about the Jesus about whom the NT was supposed to have been written. What the orthodox/Catholic denominations teach about Jesus is replete with Paganism, as admitted by those responsible for the compilation of the Bible; and the workers use the same Bible. This battle has gone on in Christianity from the very beginning, and it is rooted in politics, nothing else.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 14, 2014 17:43:34 GMT -5
Snow - it is not just relevant to the Christian church that I attend. One thing that is common among all Christian denominations is who Jesus is. The only sects that I know of that do not uphold one God in three persons and Jesus as God, Lord, Ruler, King etc are the 2x2's. Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormans and the Christadelphians (and they don't believe in grace). So Christian denominations simply do not differ on who Jesus is. They might differ on some other things but who Jesus is isn't one of them. This issue was and is so important to the Christian church that beliefs around this area determined whether a church was Christian or whether people who didn't believe it were in fact Christians. I think Bert is great value but I think at the moment Bert will call Jesus many wonderful things but he doesn't seem to call Him God or King. Christians globally naturally have a problem with this because they believe that it undermines Christ and brings Him down to man's level - it emphasises His humanity at the expense of His divinity or deity. As a result it is often a starting point of the "what do you believe" conversation? After all, it is called Christianity. The point is, they are all Christians, they just don't think Jesus was God. And, in this area, no one knows who Jesus really was so it seems rather presumptuous of one denomination that does believe in the Trinity to say a denomination that does not, wrong. The Trinity is a Pagan concept, according to the Early Church Fathers, and Saint Augustine confessed that there is no foundation for the Trinity in the scriptures.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 14, 2014 17:46:21 GMT -5
The point is, they are all Christians, they just don't think Jesus was God. And, in this area, no one knows who Jesus really was so it seems rather presumptuous of one denomination that does believe in the Trinity to say a denomination that does not, wrong. The Trinity is a Pagan concept, according to the Early Church Fathers, and Saint Augustine confessed that there is no foundation for the Trinity in the scriptures. Yes, but no one now will acknowledge that piece of information. Yet they feel they have the right to tell denominations that don't believe it that they are wrong. Or, go as far as Irvine and say they are a cult.
|
|