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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 13:06:26 GMT -5
It is implicit in Sacred Scripture in several places - it is explicitly taught by the Church (Catholic and Orthodox). It comes down in the Tradition of the Church - handed down by the Apostles in the deposit of faith (and attested by the ECFs). To your question, yes, Sacred Scripture is indeed the Tradition of the Church. StAnne ~ I realize that "sacred scripture" is part of the "tradition of the Church," however, there are no "sacred scriptures" found within the New Testament to validate this claim relating to Mary's perpetual virginity, which is the whole point of my argument.
However, this article that the author referenced in his article is quite interesting and I would like to share it here for its contents.
www.christiancourier.com/articles/588-another-voice-from-the-tomb
there are no "sacred scriptures" found within the New Testament to validate this claim relating to Mary's perpetual virginityYes, implicitly there are - and in the OT as well. But. You probably won't find them while searching in material looking to refute them.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 25, 2014 13:14:15 GMT -5
StAnne, I think you lose on this one. Any rational reading of the New Testament will show far more evidence against than for perpetual virginity. You have to overturn a straight-forward reading of the Sacred Scripture in order to reach Catholic doctrine.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 13:19:12 GMT -5
StAnne, I think you lose on this one. Any rational reading of the New Testament will show far more evidence against than for perpetual virginity. You have to overturn a straight-forward reading of the Sacred Scripture in order to reach Catholic doctrine. Tell the Church that was there - and is still here some 2,000 years on ... Tell Martin Luther ...
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 13:20:17 GMT -5
StAnne ~ I realize that "sacred scripture" is part of the "tradition of the Church," however, there are no "sacred scriptures" found within the New Testament to validate this claim relating to Mary's perpetual virginity, which is the whole point of my argument.
However, this article that the author referenced in his article is quite interesting and I would like to share it here for its contents.
www.christiancourier.com/articles/588-another-voice-from-the-tomb
there are no "sacred scriptures" found within the New Testament to validate this claim relating to Mary's perpetual virginityYes, implicitly there are - and in the OT as well. But. You probably won't find them while searching in material looking to refute them. StAnne ~ can you produce some of these scriptures for me, if they do exists? I still haven't found one indication of this from my own research at different sites, which includes the Catholic sites, which still doesn't convince me of its validity.
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 13:28:08 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 13:43:55 GMT -5
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 13:46:58 GMT -5
StAnne ~ can you produce some of these scriptures for me, if they do exists? I still haven't found one indication of this from my own research at different sites, which includes the Catholic sites, which still doesn't convince me of its validity. PM'd you. And as I said in the PM - I am happy to provide references and answer questions (by PM) but I am not attempting to convince you (that would be the work of the Holy Spirit), nor do I wish to argue it here or by PM.
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 14:10:44 GMT -5
StAnne, I think you lose on this one. Any rational reading of the New Testament will show far more evidence against than for perpetual virginity. You have to overturn a straight-forward reading of the Sacred Scripture in order to reach Catholic doctrine. Dubious ~ I feel the Catholic profession of faith probably sums up the reason behind this belief within the RCC? Basically, according to the Catholic faith, it appears that Mary was also preserved from her birth from the stain of original sin and the same is true for Jesus, which would qualify her as a Co-Redemptrix in Heaven and as the Mother of God who can intercede for us.
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#499
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 25, 2014 14:43:57 GMT -5
faune, you probably know a lot more about current-day beliefs than I do, ha! And StAnne certainly does too.
To me, it's like castles in the air. Start with an innocuous but unfounded assumption, and just start building on it, using logic and scripture. Pretty soon you've got a whole castle hanging in the air. But once built, the castle is so magnificent that it can't be abandoned.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 15:09:44 GMT -5
faune, you probably know a lot more about current-day beliefs than I do, ha! And StAnne certainly does too. To me, it's like castles in the air. Start with an innocuous but unfounded assumption, and just start building on it, using logic and scripture. Pretty soon you've got a whole castle hanging in the air. But once built, the castle is so magnificent that it can't be abandoned. According to the converts on The Journey Home program, EWTN television and youtube, many come to believe based on what they have found by tracing history back to the early writers of church history - and do not have to believe in magnificent castles floating in the air. Being author and researcher ... you are probably well equiped to investigate the history should you choose to do so.
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 15:22:12 GMT -5
Dubious ~ I feel the Catholic profession of faith probably sums up the reason behind this belief within the RCC? Basically, according to the Catholic faith, it appears that Mary was also preserved from her birth from the stain of original sin the same as Jesus is believed to be the same, which would qualify her as a Co-Redemptrix in Heaven as the Mother of God?
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#499
hmmmmm.... about Mary didn't have the stain of original sin.... Mary the mother to be of Jesus called Him before he was born " My God and My SAVIOR!" If Mary had no sin in her life then she shouldn't and wouldn't call him "MY Savior!" Would she?491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2014 15:22:27 GMT -5
Quote - "508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.
509 Mary is truly "Mother of God" since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.
510 Mary "remained a virgin in conceiving her Son, a virgin in giving birth to him, a virgin in carrying him, a virgin in nursing him at her breast, always a virgin" (St. Augustine, Serm. 186, 1: PL 38, 999): with her whole being she is "the handmaid of the Lord" (Lk 1:38).
511 The Virgin Mary "cooperated through free faith and obedience in human salvation" (LG 56). She uttered her yes "in the name of all human nature" (St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III, 30, 1). By her obedience she became the new Eve, mother of the living. "
Amazing what people come up with. Someone has forgotten that Mary would also look like an Anglo instead of Jew, be a lot taller than your average Jew and be one HOT BABE. I thought Mary just died a little ol' Jewish lady. But apparantly she didn't die, either. We can say all sorts of things about Augustine - liar is one of them.
Paul was in the Ministry with the younger Timothy at one time. He wrote to Timothy the following, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.…"
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 17:01:52 GMT -5
491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin. Jesus had two natures: 1)God nature Yes. The Divine nature joined to human flesh. God and Man. And because He is God - the vessel chosen to bear him in her womb had to be pure - free of the stain of sin. Which is what is meant by the Angel Gabriel's royal greeting to her - ' Hail' and ' full of grace' - full of grace meant no room for sin. II. Mary - the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant
Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.
2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.
1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.
1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the awesome reverence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.
Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.
Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.
Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.
Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.
Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
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Post by Mary on Apr 25, 2014 17:06:00 GMT -5
Yes Mary was a virgin before she had Jesus. Sex in marriage is not sin. Do you believe Mary was married to Joseph? if so are you saying you don't believe they were intimate?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 17:09:43 GMT -5
Yes Mary was a virgin before she had Jesus. Sex in marriage is not sin. Do you believe Mary was married to Joseph? if so are you saying you don't believe they were intimate? She was the legal wife of Joseph under Jewish law. She was the spouse of and conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. There are more scripture references at the link to answer your comments/questions. IV. Mary is Ever Virginscripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
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Post by xna on Apr 25, 2014 17:16:04 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 17:24:43 GMT -5
Dubious ~ I feel the Catholic profession of faith probably sums up the reason behind this belief within the RCC? Basically, according to the Catholic faith, it appears that Mary was also preserved from her birth from the stain of original sin the same as Jesus, which would qualify her as a Co-Redemptrix in Heaven as the Mother of God?
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#499
hmmmmm.... about Mary didn't have the stain of original sin.... Mary the mother to be of Jesus called Him before he was born " My God and My SAVIOR!" If Mary had no sin in her life then she shouldn't and wouldn't call him "MY Savior!" Would she?Nathan ~ How perceptive of you to notice this fact! Also, this didn't become part of RCC dogma until 451 A.D. The 5th century was a far cry from the first century and the ECF's of that time, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, to name a few. St.Augustine seems to be the one we can accredit with adopting this particular view in relation to Mary, the mother of Jesus with the 5th century, in fact.
However, the RCC doctrine of the Trinity came into effect as a result of the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. During this time certain Church doctrine was being defined due to the different heretical groups increasing in number with their own theology different from the RCC. St. Augustine can also be attributed with this view that even married sexual relations was a form of sinning, which led to his conclusion about Mary being a perpetual virgin and to keep her a chaste virgin in the eyes of the people.
www.christiancourier.com/articles/600-alleged-perpetual-virginity-of-mary-the
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 17:32:44 GMT -5
Didn't you read what Jesus say ... You are speaking of marriages in which an angel does not appear to the woman to announce that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her to cause conception of a child that is God/human. That's all. I leave you to study it - - - or not.
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Post by Mary on Apr 25, 2014 17:41:36 GMT -5
I haven't had time to read it all but the question comes to mind, do you St Anne believe the bride of Christ in Revelation is the Church or Mary?
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 17:53:29 GMT -5
I haven't had time to read it all but the question comes to mind, do you St Anne believe the bride of Christ in Revelation is the Church or Mary? The Church, the Body of Christ thru Baptism, is the Bride of Christ. Mary is the Mother of the King, the Queen of Heaven. III. Mary is our Mother and Queen of the New Davidic Kingdomscripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 18:06:26 GMT -5
You are speaking of marriages in which an angel does not appear to the woman to announce that the Holy Spirit will overshadow her to cause conception of a child that is God/human. That's all. I leave you to study it - - - or not. Thanks, Many of the readers on this board have disagreed with the RCC on teaching on Ever-Virgin Mary. I agree with Jesus God/Man part but NOT the Everlasting Virgin Mary! and she had no sin. Mary said she needed a SAVIOR! and your RCC said NO! Without Jesus as Mary's Savior she will die in her sins. Nathan ~ I'm sure you don't stand alone in your statement above. I definitely agree with you until I can find any evidence to prove differently. In fact, the author of the article I quoted earlier also agrees with your conclusion.
www.christiancourier.com/articles/600-alleged-perpetual-virginity-of-mary-the
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 18:11:22 GMT -5
... and she had no sin. Mary said she needed a SAVIOR! and your RCC said NO! Without Jesus as Mary's Savior she will die in her sins. Nathan ~ I'm sure you don't stand alone in your statement above. No, Nathan and Faune. It is NOT denied that Mary needed Jesus as Savior. Perhaps you missed this a few posts up ... from CCC 491 The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#491
Preserved ahead of time by God's granting of an early grace - through the merits of Jesus Christ.
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Post by faune on Apr 25, 2014 18:32:58 GMT -5
... and she had no sin. Mary said she needed a SAVIOR! and your RCC said NO! Without Jesus as Mary's Savior she will die in her sins. Nathan ~ I'm sure you don't stand alone in your statement above. No, Nathan and Faune. It is NOT denied that Mary needed Jesus as Savior. Perhaps you missed this a few posts up ... from CCC 491 The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm#491
Preserved ahead of time by God's granting of an early grace - through the merits of Jesus Christ. StAnne ~ I didn't miss your statement above. It's just that I was looking for actual Bible scripture to support this view of the Catholic Church and not just some theory that St. Augustine postulated back during the 5th century that was accepted later as Church dogma in 451 A.D. These views regarding Mary were not found within the first two centuries, but rather came much later after the RCC became the official Church in Rome in 381 A.D. and had become a religious and political force to reckoned with along with the Roman government. Basically, anything the different Popes declared as Church dogma became the same, regardless whether it was supported by scripture or not, since he was the head of the Church and considered like the voice of God on all matters. JMT
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 18:36:57 GMT -5
Preserved ahead of time by God's granting of an early grace - through the merits of Jesus Christ. Paul wrote that "ALL" have sinned that is including MARY!. You would deny that God has the power to accomplish Mary's saving grace ahead of time through the merits of Christ as Savior? Christ, as the Church teaches, "conquered the enemy of the human race alone (solus)" (D711); In the same way, He alone acquired the grace of Redemption for the whole human race, including Mary..." (Dr. Ludwigg Otto, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma 212-13)
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 18:51:02 GMT -5
Preserved ahead of time by God's granting of an early grace - through the merits of Jesus Christ. StAnne ~ ... and not just some theory that St. Augustine postulated back during the 5th century that was accepted later as Church dogma in 451 A.D. These views regarding Mary were not found within the first two centuries, ... Historical Timeline for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception
Provided by my friend Mark Bonocore
c. 60 A.D. --The Gospel of Luke (Luke 1:28) calls Mary “Kecharitomenae” (“Full of grace” or “perfectly graced”). Thus, when we first meet Mary in Scripture, even before she assents to become the mother of the Messiah, she is already Baptized into Christ and free of all sin.
c. 100 A.D. --The Proto-Evangelium of James depicts Mary as a sinless child, prepared from her mother’s womb to be the mother of the Savior.
c. 180 A.D. --St. Ireneaus of Lyon, a disciple of the early Greek father St. Polycarp of Smyrna, who was a disciple of the Apostle John himself, speaks of Mary’s sinlessness, comparing it with the original sinlessness of Eve before the Fall. ...
catholicbridge.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.php
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Post by StAnne on Apr 25, 2014 19:22:44 GMT -5
If God had the power to accomplish Mary's saving grace ahead of time.... then WHY? she called Jesus her "My God and My Savior!" Because He is Mary's Savior too. Christ, as the Church teaches, " conquered the enemy of the human race alone (solus)" (D711); In the same way, He alone acquired the grace of Redemption for the whole human race, including Mary..." (Dr. Ludwigg Otto, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma 212-13)
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Post by snow on Apr 25, 2014 19:42:09 GMT -5
Well there you have it folks. Mary was a perpetual virgin because the RCC said she was.
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Post by xna on Apr 25, 2014 19:52:42 GMT -5
Well there you have it folks. Mary was a perpetual virgin because the RCC said she was.
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