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Post by reallyandtruly on Apr 15, 2014 20:05:14 GMT -5
No one has nothing. You will always have yourself and that is the most precious thing we have to offer others, ourselves. Snow, I was referring to the post. What do the workers have to offer the young people? They only have fear and rules....... You obviously know different workers to the ones I know. That is not what the young people I know say - 'fear and rules' are not words I ever hear mentioned. How many young people 'in this way' do you talk to??Just curious..
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 20:06:14 GMT -5
They all seem fairly happy to me. Don't seem to have one half the problems my non-church friends have.
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2014 20:58:05 GMT -5
Bert, you can make a catalog of what should be worn and what shouldn't. Now, what about who you associate with. Got a list for that? You can also tackle the ones about the rules, hair, how fancy a house to live in, how fancy a car to drive and all those other things. You may want to check on the internet places they need to go to and which ones to avoid, like this one and TTT. That's there in the bible. Being moderate Not being fashionable Not over-dressing Having a gravity of disposition all that b.o.r.i.n.g. stuff. As for "fancy cars" that's a bit difficult. "Fancy" means better than the norm - your average family sedan is about ten years behind a Mercedes in defects per km and features. So "fancy" is hard to define. Ditto for houses. I doubt that most 2x2 men would like to drive a car or live in a house as dowdy as they make their women dress. Because it doesn't affect them because they don't have to dress 'different', they are all on the my woman should dress modest. But when it might effect them in any way, such as the dowdy little car they drive or the tiny modest little house they have to live in, well, that's a little harder to define. No surprises there lol.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2014 21:07:17 GMT -5
Snow, I was referring to the post. What do the workers have to offer the young people? They only have fear and rules....... You obviously know different workers to the ones I know. That is not what the young people I know say - 'fear and rules' are not words I ever hear mentioned. How many young people 'in this way' do you talk to??Just curious.. You are probably both right. Laz will be speaking from an earlier experience and you are looking at the current situation. I doubt the most under-30 kids today live with a lot of fear and rules. Parents will be setting boundaries (rules) for their kids as good parents do and those boundaries are likely to be tighter than many families in general society, but the workers are far less likely to usurp the parents' job today as they once were. Workers were once quite active in taking the parents' role and that didn't work out well. I think parents are doing much better today without the input from people who have no training or experience in child-raising.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 15, 2014 23:32:30 GMT -5
I recall one older sister bemoan the fact that "The Ministry" is not as "respected" as it once was. A simple"suggestion" was obeyed immediately, now such "suggestions" are often ignored.
She was complaining about how this current generation acts and dresses, recalling fondly the days when they (workers) would tell young ladies at convention to change their clothes if it was too immodest.
This will still happen but only in the most extreme of cases (happened once in my time). Its a more relaxed environment now, even from 25-30 years ago when I was a young teenager.
Was told once by an older companion that in his early days, workers were encouraged to remain aloof and keep a distance from all non-workers, but young people in particular. I see more effort made to build a positive relationship with younger people these days, and it seems to be paying off. It remains to be seen if its a matter of "too little, too late".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 0:15:58 GMT -5
You are probably both right. Laz will be speaking from an earlier experience and you are looking at the current situation. I doubt the most under-30 kids today live with a lot of fear and rules. Parents will be setting boundaries (rules) for their kids as good parents do and those boundaries are likely to be tighter than many families in general society, but the workers are far less likely to usurp the parents' job today as they once were. Workers were once quite active in taking the parents' role and that didn't work out well. I think parents are doing much better today without the input from people who have no training or experience in child-raising. Agree with this - I don't see too much "fear and rules" among the young folk that go to meetings. They seem a pretty nice and healthy bunch of kids - pretty similar to what I see of the young folk at church (my kid's ages). The only difference is that some of the kids in the fellowship that I know well and have talked to struggle to know what they believe and have found it easy to just gradually stop going. It really has changed a lot over the years in terms of legalisms - we do need to recognise that. As kids our hair was shorn (literally by male workers, we were brought into line constantly but it didn't really worry us too much. Mum and Dad were very normal and as kids we just ended up ignoring the workers (oh, they are on about that again) or went missing when it was time to line up for hair cuts. Mind you, I know some kids in other families had a hard time largely because their parents worshipped the ground the workers walked on. Mum and Dad were told to get rid of the radio from their car, radio aerials that were up were snapped off by workers at convention. They were the good 'ol days! But all that is yesterday I think. In my experience the workers were at the height of their powers in the early 80's and it's been downhill ever since. Sure, they still have sanctions re meetings which is really the last bastion of power....however, I don't think that will last much longer. Increasingly, elders will make their own decisions (some are already) about these sort of things. Yes, that's pretty much the way I see it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 0:23:18 GMT -5
I recall one older sister bemoan the fact that "The Ministry" is not as "respected" as it once was. A simple"suggestion" was obeyed immediately, now such "suggestions" are often ignored. She was complaining about how this current generation acts and dresses, recalling fondly the days when they (workers) would tell young ladies at convention to change their clothes if it was too immodest. This will still happen but only in the most extreme of cases (happened once in my time). Its a more relaxed environment now, even from 25-30 years ago when I was a young teenager. Was told once by an older companion that in his early days, workers were encouraged to remain aloof and keep a distance from all non-workers, but young people in particular. I see more effort made to build a positive relationship with younger people these days, and it seems to be paying off. It remains to be seen if its a matter of "too little, too late". I'm not exactly sure what you mean about building a positive relationship. It is certainly true from my perspective that workers are very friendly to young people and give them a lot of leeway. Young people don't look at workers like scary policeman like the previous generation. There's not much, if any, negativity in that regard. On the other hand, they aren't particularly pro-active with young people either except for the workers have a "people" talent. I suppose what I am saying is that they are quite positive, but they are doing a lot of building either. For instance, mainstream churches have youth pastors who actually do things to build positive relationships with young people and young adults whereas the workers don't take that sort of initiative.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 0:38:33 GMT -5
Quote - "Mind you, I know some kids in other families had a hard time largely because their parents worshipped the ground the workers walked on."
Not being obtuse but could you define "worship" in this instance? Paul wrote in Thessalonians 5:12
"And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you And to esteeme them very highly in love for their works sake"
Quote: over you admonish you esteem them highly in love
Do you have a problem with that?
it seems black and white to me. If some young people don't like that, they can easily esteem themselves and make their own rules.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 0:49:54 GMT -5
I recall one older sister bemoan the fact that "The Ministry" is not as "respected" as it once was. A simple"suggestion" was obeyed immediately, now such "suggestions" are often ignored. She was complaining about how this current generation acts and dresses, recalling fondly the days when they (workers) would tell young ladies at convention to change their clothes if it was too immodest. This will still happen but only in the most extreme of cases (happened once in my time). Its a more relaxed environment now, even from 25-30 years ago when I was a young teenager. Was told once by an older companion that in his early days, workers were encouraged to remain aloof and keep a distance from all non-workers, but young people in particular. I see more effort made to build a positive relationship with younger people these days, and it seems to be paying off. It remains to be seen if its a matter of "too little, too late". I'm not exactly sure what you mean about building a positive relationship. It is certainly true from my perspective that workers are very friendly to young people and give them a lot of leeway. Young people don't look at workers like scary policeman like the previous generation. There's not much, if any, negativity in that regard. On the other hand, they aren't particularly pro-active with young people either except for the workers have a "people" talent. I suppose what I am saying is that they are quite positive, but they are doing a lot of building either. For instance, mainstream churches have youth pastors who actually do things to build positive relationships with young people and young adults whereas the workers don't take that sort of initiative. the workers use to take me swimmming all the time in fact they taught me how to swim, they would also take me on thier rounds sometimes...i would consider that building positive relationships...this was in the late 70's...
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Post by lazarus66 on Apr 16, 2014 2:15:18 GMT -5
Bert, you can make a catalog of what should be worn and what shouldn't. Now, what about who you associate with. Got a list for that? You can also tackle the ones about the rules, hair, how fancy a house to live in, how fancy a car to drive and all those other things. You may want to check on the internet places they need to go to and which ones to avoid, like this one and TTT. That's there in the bible. Being moderate Not being fashionable Not over-dressing Having a gravity of disposition all that b.o.r.i.n.g. stuff. As for "fancy cars" that's a bit difficult. "Fancy" means better than the norm - your average family sedan is about ten years behind a Mercedes in defects per km and features. So "fancy" is hard to define. Ditto for houses. Is the car and house thing in the bible? I figured that from what cars I have seen the workers drive, in some cases, you could preach better if you drove a nice fancy car. Seriously, what I saw was a "keeping up with the Joneses" where one of the friends would buy a certain car and the next would outdo it. I know their human, and for the most part good people, just misled, but we all gotta start somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 6:34:48 GMT -5
Quote - "There are so many things professing people of all ages could do if we thought about it."
Well Brownowl maybe you could think outside the box - instead of taking this board or The Secret Sect style literature as your primary source, go find out personally whether "professing people of all ages" actually do things for others.
ps "Jesus gave food" - He did it once in the feeding of the five thousand, and that wasn't for the sake of feeding, it was to leave no doubt, to those who were not moved by His message, that He was the Messiah.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 16, 2014 6:53:57 GMT -5
Bert, you didn't answer me, what state do you live in ? Just curious !
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 7:12:56 GMT -5
I'm not exactly sure what you mean about building a positive relationship. It is certainly true from my perspective that workers are very friendly to young people and give them a lot of leeway. Young people don't look at workers like scary policeman like the previous generation. There's not much, if any, negativity in that regard. On the other hand, they aren't particularly pro-active with young people either except for the workers have a "people" talent. I suppose what I am saying is that they are quite positive, but they are doing a lot of building either. For instance, mainstream churches have youth pastors who actually do things to build positive relationships with young people and young adults whereas the workers don't take that sort of initiative. the workers use to take me swimmming all the time in fact they taught me how to swim, they would also take me on thier rounds sometimes...i would consider that building positive relationships...this was in the late 70's... Yes, that is something. The workers once took one of my kids out for lunch one day during a teachers' strike.
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Post by ellie on Apr 16, 2014 8:20:05 GMT -5
Thinking about the title of the thread I thought I’d write a list of things on offer by workers (featured at bottom).
Then I realised the list mostly highlights the original post. Workers provide rules, but offer very little besides. Basically by offering rules alone workers teach us (inadvertently I hope) how to be excellent Pharisees. We learn how to keep the rules for appearance sake and we learn how to be judgmental but we don’t learn very much love and kindness.
Two simple ideas for things that workers would do well to organise with the youth to help us both bond as a group and learn a little kindness: • Organise volunteering, i.e. enter a walking or cycling team for charity, soup kitchen, door knocking for charity etc. • Find out what the talents are among the young people then use them i.e. many play musical instruments. Arrange a practice session and then go and play at an aged care facility where it might be appreciated.
By contrast growing up in meetings I was offered:
1. Regular fellowship meetings – mandatory attendance 2. Gospel missions – offering surface level teachings 3. Sings 4. Rules pertaining to entertainment e.g. no TV, no ‘worldly’ entertainment 5. Rules pertaining to social order e.g. • events organised by F&W are to superseded RSVP’s to events organised by non F&W – even when it is bad mannered to renege on a previous commitment • No friendship with the poorer classes of society • Relationships with non F&W of the opposite sex highly frowned upon 6. Rules pertaining to dress • No trousers • No jewellery • No tattoos
Excellent post, including the great suggestions. We had a worker recently lamenting someone who quit "because they are missing so much". She really believes it of course. What she has in mind is her own experience of the social relationships and spiritual encouragement of attending meeting, and then figures that her own experience should be the same for everyone else. Of course it isn't. Friends don't experience socially what workers experience, and anyone seeking truth will frequently get frustrated in their search for answers.....getting slogan-like answers at best. If a friend disagrees with anything about the meetings or the preaching, you can be sure that by leaving the meetings, they won't be "missing much" because much of the social component will be gone before they leave. From my view of young people, the informal social friendships among the friends works well for some of them, particularly those who are a bit shy. They know what to expect and feel comfortable in a known environment. For other young people, the meetings and social life are at best a peripheral part of their lives, not bad enough to dump it, not enjoyable enough to really get into it. I like your demonstration of persons getting frustrated with slogan answers. Yes the now bold comment stated without explanation of it’s meaning is not useful. You are correct there are some friends around who are shy once out of their comfort zone. For those people I suppose the F&W make up the most of their social existence, and leaving would be a big adjustment. I do believe I’m seeing fewer and fewer of those types of younger friends, however, it is pretty difficult to say if this is reflective of the group as a whole. It may well be my particular circumstances.
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Post by ellie on Apr 16, 2014 8:25:05 GMT -5
Regarding the posts relating to fear and rules. Fear no, but attempted enforcement of rules, absolutely. Below is an example of attempted and failed rule enforcement from 4 years ago.
Two workers attended an event with many young friends. Shortly after this the senior worker organised some ‘special young people’s meetings’. We were informed that those who did not attend the meetings would be getting a personal visit. With the benefit of hindsight I see this as a bullying tactic.
At the beginning of the meetings a discussion format was suggested by the worker. The worker however was dismissive of opinions and questions. One young person whom the worker patronisingly dismissed has now left the meetings. More than likely these meetings helped assist in the making of that decision.
As for the content of the meetings 1 Timothy 2 8-9 and some other verses I cannot remember now were read. Two main topics were spoken about. One was women’s apparel. The worker’s main point was that we are apparently to wear sleeves of a certain length. I’m not sure of the exact specifications although it was deemed that the sleeve did not necessarily need to extend as far as the elbow. Some vague mention of wrath was included as an add on for the guys. 1 Timothy 2:10 was largely ignored.
The second topic was the consumption of alcohol. Drunkenness’ is apparently not the only thing to be avoided. All consumption of alcohol is to be avoided. What we learnt from the meetings is that our views and questions are apparently inferior to that worker’s opinions. We also learnt to avoid inviting any workers to events and to hide any behaviour that we think may prompt any more such meetings. Afterwards when asked we would say the concept of young people meetings is lovely. What we don’t usually elaborate on was the content and execution of those meetings.
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Post by ellie on Apr 16, 2014 8:28:58 GMT -5
Quote - " By what definition was of mine was Jesus joyless?" Same definition as you used to describe us.Quote - " By the way regarding the Jews - tell me this was not said without care for the fate of the Jewish people "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"What else did Jesus say about them?You may wish to search the thread for mentions of joyless and see whom it was that first mentions joylessness.
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Post by ellie on Apr 16, 2014 8:56:20 GMT -5
Excellent post, including the great suggestions.We had a worker recently lamenting someone who quit "because they are missing so much". She really believes it of course. What she has in mind is her own experience of the social relationships and spiritual encouragement of attending meeting, and then figures that her own experience should be the same for everyone else. Of course it isn't. Friends don't experience socially what workers experience, and anyone seeking truth will frequently get frustrated in their search for answers.....getting slogan-like answers at best. If a friend disagrees with anything about the meetings or the preaching, you can be sure that by leaving the meetings, they won't be "missing much" because much of the social component will be gone before they leave. From my view of young people, the informal social friendships among the friends works well for some of them, particularly those who are a bit shy. They know what to expect and feel comfortable in a known environment. For other young people, the meetings and social life are at best a peripheral part of their lives, not bad enough to dump it, not enjoyable enough to really get into it.
Ellie ~ From your excellent post, I picked up on "Rules, rules, and more rules" as being what could be expected from the workers with no meaningful change in their attitudes. Although a few surface changes in devices allowed within the home and general appearance of the youth may be realized today, I really doubt the workers have departed much from their controlling behaviors, especially when the friends display in their testimonies less exclusive views than those accepted within the group. From my own past experience, this was a big "No-No" and would get you shunned and confronted by the friends and workers for thinking differently from the group mentality. I believe somebody named Brandon got a similar rebuke or excommunication from meetings within one of Walker's postings recently? I know this, because I personally was frowned upon due to not agreeing with this same group mentality. I felt it was unjust when I shared my own views on things and was told they didn't line up with the worker's accepted platform or gospel message. No doubt this had a lot to do with my own "shunning within the fellowship" and the silence I received afterwards, when I left meetings one Easter Sunday back in April 1995? After 30 years of exposure, I felt I had enough for a life time and just departed without notice to anybody within the meeting. Since nobody even called afterward to ask why I wasn't attending meetings, I assumed they didn't care anyway by the obvious silence from both F&W's. In fact, every Easter Sunday when I attend church service, I think of my final exit from the 2x2's and rejoice in my new found freedom of belief and worship.
Clearday ~ I agree with your summary on the young people within the 2x2's. Namely, the youth seem to fall within two groups ~ the shy ones of the first group who conform due to the comfort it affords them in their social awkwardness and the second group who consider the meetings a peripheral part of their lives ~ not bad enough to dump, but not really enjoyable enough to embrace wholeheartedly. In the past, I'm sure I would have fallen within the second group, since I was a teenager from a non-professing home and had enjoyed some normal freedoms before joining the 2x2's. If something the workers insisted upon, such as dress and conduct around the friends, I complied while within their presence, but lived my life according to my own preferences outside their circle of influence. I have to admit, I was really happy to have come from a non-professing home when I heard the stories of B&R's who were raised within this strict structure of the F&W's. No doubt, if I was born and raised within the 2x2's, I would have rebelled and left a whole lot sooner than I did? In fact, during my college days, I did fall away from meetings pretty much and didn't start back again until in my early 20's, when my finance (now husband) during my last year of college decided to profess after wanting to be introduced to the F&W's and meetings. That totally took me by surprise and even broke us up for about a year, but we eventually got back together again and married and I returned to the fold. The remaining years are part of my history within the 2x2's.
Faune - I had this element to my upbringing, where I was allowed (by my parents) certain activities, and to a lesser degree clothing, so long as I kept this quiet from workers and certain friends who would disapprove and might create a fuss. I imagine it is not all that uncommon among the friends to have this kind of upbringing. It's not surprising that we quickly learn to have a best behaviour and an everyday version of ourselves.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 8:59:05 GMT -5
Regarding the posts relating to fear and rules. Fear no, but attempted enforcement of rules, absolutely. Below is an example of attempted and failed rule enforcement from 4 years ago. Two workers attended an event with many young friends. Shortly after this the senior worker organised some ‘special young people’s meetings’. We were informed that those who did not attend the meetings would be getting a personal visit. With the benefit of hindsight I see this as a bullying tactic. At the beginning of the meetings a discussion format was suggested by the worker. The worker however was dismissive of opinions and questions. One young person whom the worker patronisingly dismissed has now left the meetings. More than likely these meetings helped assist in the making of that decision. As for the content of the meetings 1 Timothy 2 8-9 and some other verses I cannot remember now were read. Two main topics were spoken about. One was women’s apparel. The worker’s main point was that we are apparently to wear sleeves of a certain length. I’m not sure of the exact specifications although it was deemed that the sleeve did not necessarily need to extend as far as the elbow. Some vague mention of wrath was included as an add on for the guys. 1 Timothy 2:10 was largely ignored. The second topic was the consumption of alcohol. Drunkenness’ is apparently not the only thing to be avoided. All consumption of alcohol is to be avoided. What we learnt from the meetings is that our views and questions are apparently inferior to that worker’s opinions. We also learnt to avoid inviting any workers to events and to hide any behaviour that we think may prompt any more such meetings. Afterwoods when asked we would say the concept of young people meetings is lovely. What we don’t usually elaborate on was the content and execution of those meetings. Thanks for that. It's been over 10 years since we have encountered that sort of legalistic instruction. The idea of specifying sleeve length isn't likely to be presented around here and certainly wouldn't be accepted by young people. It would really distance workers from the kids. One thing the workers are trying to battle is meeting attendance by young people. It is becoming much more common for young people to reduce meeting attendance, and many just don't go on Wednesday night at all. Of course the workers are approaching the problem in a backward manner which is not unusual. They think those who don't attend are "missing so much" rather than asking "are we giving enough?".
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 16, 2014 10:13:28 GMT -5
The positive relationship building I was thinking of is when the workers spend time with the younger crowd doing "regular stuff".
A short while ago I had a visit with a young fella who had been down to Iowa (or Nebraska, I forget which) for the annual corn de-tassling. A large number of young folks get together for this supervised event (girls stay at one place, boys at another), and some workers were there. In the evenings they would sing or play ball, or the workers would share their own personal testimony. For this young man it was a new experience to get to know the "human" side of workers and he felt more comfortable around them after that. Time spent in that manner accomplished things that 100 conventions or gospel meetings couldn't.
From my own experience, an afternoon spent playing volleyball in a school gymnasium with young folks or riding four wheelers in the hills with them, brought us closer together and made them more comfortable with workers than gospel meetings or hymn sing evenings.
I appreciate the workers who make such efforts but not all see it that way. Some, (usually older ones), feel compelled to keep a distance from the friends (young people in particular) and retain an aloof aura about the ministry. Am sure they have their reasons but personally I don't think our Lord intended to model his fellowship on the rigid militaristic style of officers and enlisted.
It would be a useful study to see if regions that have a more "approachable" style of workers have a larger retention of the young people. My own observations would suggest that, but it rather difficult to quantify what "approachable" means.
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Post by lazarus66 on Apr 16, 2014 10:16:26 GMT -5
Quote Re "fear and rules" - "Oh I see. Yes, that is what is seems to have come to. I think they had more to offer at one time, but from what I have heard here, those days are long gone."But I thought the old days were about black stockings and the like? Can someone elaborate on how we have changed? Bert, you are not old enough to remember the black stockings but that is an example of the nonsense one must endure to be a 2x2. For fear, if you don't follow the rules we are going to take your salvation away, like they really think they can. nothing in those lines have changed. William Irving, Jack Carroll and George Walker and the "creators" of 2x2ism had the plan down pat and it still works. I bet you would quake in your boots if your head worker started dressing you down in public or even private, yet he is just a man and has no special dispensation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 11:03:54 GMT -5
i am reminded of this verse: 2Co_13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: and this verse: 2Co 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction.
the workers have the power to punish those who do wrong...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 14:40:26 GMT -5
i am reminded of this verse: 2Co_13:2 I told you before, and foretell you, as if I were present, the second time; and being absent now I write to them which heretofore have sinned, and to all other, that, if I come again, I will not spare: and this verse: 2Co 13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the power which the Lord hath given me to edification, and not to destruction. the workers have the power to punish those who do wrong... Too bad they weren't given that power from Jesus. Worker following worker is a long standing tradition.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 15:23:40 GMT -5
so you don't believe that paul was inspired of God?
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 16, 2014 16:00:02 GMT -5
I would contend that when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached then it is the power of God for salvation (Romans 1:16) and lives, young and old are transformed by God’s grace alone and are not led to believe that it is their works that gains them acceptance with God (Ephesians 2:7-10). Once we come to God in repentance we then have peace with God (Romans 5:1-11) and that motivates to get involved in Christian service. Where the Gospel is truly preached and people turn to Christ in repentance and have assurance that their sins are forgiven they do not need any gimmicks to keep them in the service of Jesus Christ. The truly born again Christian is acutely conscious that we did not choose God but He chose us and appointed us to bear fruit, (John 15:16).
As I listened to the preaching of workers in the past, there was little, if any engagement with the text of Scripture and no call to repentance that we find in the Apostle Peter’s first sermon on the day of Pentecost. Following Peter’s penetrating sermon in Acts 2 it wasn’t Peter who had to make an appeal but the people who were so convicted that they asked, ‘what must we do.’ Peter’s response is as relevant today as it was then, ‘repent and be baptised.’
‘Workers don't offer anything for their young people’ – pay attention to what Paul calls the things of first importance 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and preach the transforming Gospel of Jesus Christ – then you are offering young and old all they need to live a holy, blameless and abundant life.
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Post by Mary on Apr 16, 2014 16:15:22 GMT -5
so you don't believe that paul was inspired of God? Isn't that what clearday was saying when he said "Too bad they weren't given that power from Jesus. Worker following worker is a long standing tradition." He is saying that the workers need to be inspired by God not following each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 18:05:17 GMT -5
he's suggesting that paul wasn't given that power from God and that we are only following men(workers)...i wanted clarification as i see it differently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:12:04 GMT -5
so you don't believe that paul was inspired of God? I believe that Paul was inspired by God just like you and me. I believe that Jesus was One with God, not like you and me. If you need bible quotes to back this up, let me know.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:13:17 GMT -5
he's suggesting that paul wasn't given that power from God and that we are only following men(workers)...i wanted clarification as i see it differently. Let's make this super simple: Jesus is the Son of God. Paul was not. If you need more clarification, please let me know and we will try again.
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