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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 20:20:21 GMT -5
This younger generation must be engaged or they will totally lose it. Some of my cousins kids play in a church band. I know some young people who play church sports. These experiences puts a good taste in young people's mouths for the fellowship they grow up in. And they aren't writing about their unhappy church upbringing on some message board. Workers praise young people for standing true yet don't realize how some of them behave behind their backs. Even when young professing people seem fairly normal, hyprocrisy can rear its head. Girls dress differently around older meeting people than when they get together for sleepovers. Some young men cover up tats yet display them when they go on hiking trips. Young people need to be themselves. It is hard on one's nerves to be one person here and another person there.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 20:26:40 GMT -5
there is suppose to be a falling away at the end. it must come to pass that Christ be revealed with his second coming and also that the son of perdition be revealed...
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
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Post by jj on Apr 10, 2014 20:33:03 GMT -5
This younger generation must be engaged or they will totally lose it. Some of my cousins kids play in a church band. I know some young people who play church sports. These experiences puts a good taste in young people's mouths for the fellowship they grow up in. And they aren't writing about their unhappy church upbringing on some message board. Workers praise young people for standing true yet don't realize how some of them behave behind their backs. Even when young professing people seem fairly normal, hyprocrisy can rear its head. Girls dress differently around older meeting people than when they get together for sleepovers. Some young men cover up tats yet display them when they go on hiking trips. Young people need to be themselves. It is hard on one's nerves to be one person here and another person there. I agree, it can be quite damaging and stressful to lead a double life. For a time when I professed, I had pierced ears and took them out when I was around friends and wore them at work and home. Likewise I had a TV, occasionally wore pants etc- I definitely wasn't as 'clean' as I appeared The endless focus on external spiritual appearances drive me mad in the end.
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 21:41:59 GMT -5
there is suppose to be a falling away at the end. it must come to pass that Christ be revealed with his second coming and also that the son of perdition be revealed... 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; You've learned all the 2x2 lines haven't you Wally. How else can you explain it when people just aren't putting up with the deceit anymore, the blind eye to CSA, the spiritual hierarchy and they vote with their feet. Must be that 'falling away' that was predicted towards the end that always seems to get moved further forward every time it doesn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 22:07:16 GMT -5
you only have to look around and see that the falling away is here and not just for 2x2's...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 22:31:10 GMT -5
you only have to look around and see that the falling away is here and not just for 2x2's... Well we were surprised. My husband and I are church hopping now no meetings. we are in the ACT I can tell you the churches here are full. We've been to Baptist a few times , Uniting and Presbyterian quite a few now. Not too many spare seats. We were always told the churches are not doing well - they are flourishing here. We will have to go really early to get anywhere near the Presbyterian for Easter service and it's a big old church.
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Post by déjà vu on Apr 10, 2014 22:35:32 GMT -5
Nearly three out of every five young Christians disconnect from their churches after the age of 15, but why? A new research study released by the Barna Group points to six different reasons as to why young people aren't staying in their pews. The results of this study come from the interviews of teenagers, young adults, youth pastors, senior pastors and parents that were taken over the course of five years read on ; www.christianpost.com/news/study-why-young-christians-leave-the-church-56722/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 22:44:08 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2014 23:12:07 GMT -5
you only have to look around and see that the falling away is here and not just for 2x2's... Whoever said it was just the 2x2's. Most denominations within Christianity are losing people. Mostly for the reason I stated above. Many people are more interested now in having a personal relationship with God that isn't about exclusivity, hierarchy, and a middle man (god broker).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 0:02:01 GMT -5
Nearly three out of every five young Christians disconnect from their churches after the age of 15, but why? A new research study released by the Barna Group points to six different reasons as to why young people aren't staying in their pews. The results of this study come from the interviews of teenagers, young adults, youth pastors, senior pastors and parents that were taken over the course of five years read on ; www.christianpost.com/news/study-why-young-christians-leave-the-church-56722/Interesting article. I took the liberty to summarize it in bullet point excerpts for reasons why young people are leaving: “Christians demonize everything outside of the church” most of the time the church ignores real-world problems their church was too concerned about the negative impact of movies, music and video games. Many young adults also feel that their experience of Christianity was shallow. God appeared to be missing from their experience of church. “Christians are too confident they know all the answers” “Christianity is anti-science.” churches are too simple or too judgmental when it comes to issues of sexuality. young adults struggle with the exclusivity of Christianity. “churches are afraid of the beliefs of other faiths” it is “unfriendly to those who doubt.” they feel like they can't ask life's most pressing questions in church “significant intellectual doubts” about their faith.
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Post by reallyandtruly on Apr 11, 2014 5:16:33 GMT -5
We had a discussion at the table the other night about church. My kids are 18 and 14. They are part of a large youth group at our local church - over 300 kids in senior high. About 35% of the kids have non-Christian parents so it is a wonderful evangelism opportunity. We asked them what they liked about church. They answered: Friends (from different backgrounds than at school and across the private/public school system), learning about the Bible in a way that they understand, talking about teenage issues with leaders and other teenagers, good Bible teaching that they understand - they said they liked one minister's teaching particularly because it went into more detail, leaders that were younger who understood them. Nothing terribly surprising. I had a good time growing up in the meetings - many of my friends who have also left meetings did as well. We had lots of friends and people we could chat with. I didn't really know what I believed but I had a lot of fun. The fellowship has a lot of positives - it's a shame about the teaching though which is resulting in many people (including young people) leaving something that was quite positive. Whilst my experience at our church has been overall more positive, no church is perfect and the 2x2's could have kept a whole lot more people if they had not drifted from the truth about Jesus. Young people, all people want their church to stand for something that is clear, Bible based and offers them real hope. If it doesn't it's not surprising that people leave and look for something which does. Many Christians who move into a new area will go to a number of different services and one of their key determinants (apart from sound doctrine) will be what the youth ministry offers. We did that when we moved into a new area of Sydney 7 years ago. Our kids started going to a local church with their friends - after a few months we realised that it was probably a good thing to check out the church. We did that and it has been a good experience. That is interesting because the many young people that I know that have left this way have not done so to go to another church or because or doctrinal issues. Most will honestly say that they 'have no need of God' People in general feel less need for God and so church numbers are falling.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 5:43:44 GMT -5
It's a truth that if you lower the standard of your church you can attract more people.
In a few years people will be asking us why we don't accept legalized drugs (everybody does it!) or why we don't share partners (its in the bible?) or we don't sexualize kids (they have rights too!) Who you follow says a lot about who you are and what you want.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 6:04:07 GMT -5
There are two trends in Western society - Church membership is dying by about one percent a year - (and that applies to my church too.) Church doctrine and practice is steadily declining.
The latter might be impossible to measure. (Some have tried, ie counting the amount of biblical disbelief)
This tells you where we are going:
"We live in a culture where people are more offended by swear words and middle fingers than they are by famine, warfare and the destruction of our environment."
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2014 10:00:14 GMT -5
There are two trends in Western society - Church membership is dying by about one percent a year - (and that applies to my church too.) Church doctrine and practice is steadily declining. The latter might be impossible to measure. (Some have tried, ie counting the amount of biblical disbelief) This tells you where we are going: "We live in a culture where people are more offended by swear words and middle fingers than they are by famine, warfare and the destruction of our environment."I definitely disagree with this. Our children are far more environmentally conscious than we ever were. They are more vegan, they are composting they are fighting against GMO foods. My children have taught me more about saving the environment than ever even occurred to me. They are also protesting war and going out to third world countries to help. I truly do believe they are leaving the churches and becoming more humanist in nature. To me that is a wonderful transformation. I love where they are going and I truly believe it was our generation that did the most damage then any other time in history. Hopefully it's not to late for our children to bring that around.
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Post by irvinegrey on Apr 11, 2014 11:31:37 GMT -5
It's a truth that if you lower the standard of your church you can attract more people. In a few years people will be asking us why we don't accept legalized drugs (everybody does it!) or why we don't share partners (its in the bible?) or we don't sexualize kids (they have rights too!) Who you follow says a lot about who you are and what you want. A rather cynical response that follows the 2x2 party line!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 13:48:34 GMT -5
It's a truth that if you lower the standard of your church you can attract more people. In a few years people will be asking us why we don't accept legalized drugs (everybody does it!) or why we don't share partners (its in the bible?) or we don't sexualize kids (they have rights too!) Who you follow says a lot about who you are and what you want. There is significant evidence that churches who lose their focus on Jesus, lower their standard and stand for nothing are dying quickly. Those who stand for Christ and wholehearted discipleship in this part of the world (and some others that I am aware of) are experiencing growth of at least 6-8% per annum. I see that happening in my neck of the woods: the bible teaching churches are growing, the liberal churches are shrinking
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 14:12:09 GMT -5
you only have to look around and see that the falling away is here and not just for 2x2's... Well we were surprised. My husband and I are church hopping now no meetings. we are in the ACT I can tell you the churches here are full. We've been to Baptist a few times , Uniting and Presbyterian quite a few now. Not too many spare seats. We were always told the churches are not doing well - they are flourishing here. We will have to go really early to get anywhere near the Presbyterian for Easter service and it's a big old church. From what I have observed, I see a lot of new megachurchs on the increase while the mainline older churches losing people. I am not sure that it whether it evens out in the long run.
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Post by breakingfree on Apr 11, 2014 14:57:23 GMT -5
This younger generation must be engaged or they will totally lose it. Some of my cousins kids play in a church band. I know some young people who play church sports. These experiences puts a good taste in young people's mouths for the fellowship they grow up in. And they aren't writing about their unhappy church upbringing on some message board. Workers praise young people for standing true yet don't realize how some of them behave behind their backs. Even when young professing people seem fairly normal, hyprocrisy can rear its head. Girls dress differently around older meeting people than when they get together for sleepovers. Some young men cover up tats yet display them when they go on hiking trips. Young people need to be themselves. It is hard on one's nerves to be one person here and another person there. My daughter decided to leave meetings because she believed what Gods Word said about her: She is fearfully and wonderfully made and that the Lord created her with gifts and talents He wanted her to pursue and perfect with the intent of glorifying Him. But, the message she was getting in meetings were that these talents, gifts and passions were worldly and to be denied. She attended a Christian sports camp that encourages and teaches the student athletes how to honor God in their pursuits. The message they were teaching was more biblically inspired than what the workers were saying. She also realized she had been lied to about the motive of these "worldly Christians". The workers in our area often warned that all religious outsiders were motivated by money and vain glory. I'm sure these charlatans exist, but we have yet to encounter one in our experience.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 15:45:46 GMT -5
The decline of "truth" is the issue I am discussing here. Young people don't feel the meetings are hip and cool. Music and sports involves youth in a positive way and helps them learn about the Lord.The quietness before meetings, lack of powerful preaching, the low profile nature of the group, childhood memories of hard chairs and stern looks doesn't appeal to many youth. Outside of certain families, this lowly way won't appeal to many people born and raised in stable homes from other religious perspectives.In my rural town, the church parking lots are about as full as ever. yet the meetings are getting smaller and older. In eastern US, the decline is appalling.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 2:03:04 GMT -5
Snow Quote - "I definitely disagree with this. Our children are far more environmentally conscious than we ever were." That's not my point. We trade one virtue for another. We are warned about loving the creation more than the creator. And believe me - not many greenies are into loving God.
Quote - "They are more vegan, they are composting they are fighting against GMO foods." Vegan has no spiritual merit. Vegans I know are quite happy to cheat, lie and steal. (I lived with a bunch of them once.) Their "morals" are in their food. Composting is good. I am a fanatic composter - but it aint religion. GM food is the safest food in the world as it is the only food which has been tested. Denying it condemns future generations - and has a similar intellectual merit to the anti-vaccine lobby. in third world countries to starvation.
Quote - "They are also protesting war..." I just checked to see if "peace movement" websites were ignoring the incredibly dangerous situation in Ukraine. I was wrong - they hadn't ignored it, they were promoting the Russian invasion. If George Bush invaded Crimea your "peace" protesters would be in full swing, supporting Crimea as they supported Uncle Joe Stalin, Uncle Mao, Uncle ho-ho Ho Chi Minh and even "uncle" Sadaam Hussein. Don't make me sick.
Quote - "and going out to third world countries to help." What, like Africa? I gave to Africa in the 1960's, I gave to Africa in the 1970's, I gave to Africa in the 1980's, I gave to Africa in the 1990's and I gave to Africa in the 2000's. No more. You will find many people (and this now includes politicized churches)who will denounce Capitalism, technology, Capitalism, GM foods, Capitalism, trade, Capitalism, globalization, Capitalism and the like - THE VERY THINGS WHICH HELPED MAKE POOR ASIANS RICH. That is to say - such churches don't care to understand the reasons for poverty, anymore than they understand the bible.
Quote - "I truly do believe they are leaving the churches and becoming more humanist in nature. To me that is a wonderful transformation. I love where they are going and I truly believe it was our generation that did the most damage then any other time in history. Hopefully it's not to late for our children to bring that around." So you think the world is getting better? By what standards are you measuring it?
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 13, 2014 5:07:59 GMT -5
Bert what state do you live in ? I mean what state in Australia
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 10:31:35 GMT -5
SnowQuote - "I definitely disagree with this. Our children are far more environmentally conscious than we ever were." That's not my point. We trade one virtue for another. We are warned about loving the creation more than the creator. And believe me - not many greenies are into loving God.Quote - "They are more vegan, they are composting they are fighting against GMO foods." Vegan has no spiritual merit. Vegans I know are quite happy to cheat, lie and steal. (I lived with a bunch of them once.) Their "morals" are in their food. Composting is good. I am a fanatic composter - but it aint religion. GM food is the safest food in the world as it is the only food which has been tested. Denying it condemns future generations - and has a similar intellectual merit to the anti-vaccine lobby. in third world countries to starvation.Quote - "They are also protesting war..." I just checked to see if "peace movement" websites were ignoring the incredibly dangerous situation in Ukraine. I was wrong - they hadn't ignored it, they were promoting the Russian invasion. If George Bush invaded Crimea your "peace" protesters would be in full swing, supporting Crimea as they supported Uncle Joe Stalin, Uncle Mao, Uncle ho-ho Ho Chi Minh and even "uncle" Sadaam Hussein. Don't make me sick.Quote - "and going out to third world countries to help." What, like Africa? I gave to Africa in the 1960's, I gave to Africa in the 1970's, I gave to Africa in the 1980's, I gave to Africa in the 1990's and I gave to Africa in the 2000's. No more. You will find many people (and this now includes politicized churches)who will denounce Capitalism, technology, Capitalism, GM foods, Capitalism, trade, Capitalism, globalization, Capitalism and the like - THE VERY THINGS WHICH HELPED MAKE POOR ASIANS RICH. That is to say - such churches don't care to understand the reasons for poverty, anymore than they understand the bible.Quote - "I truly do believe they are leaving the churches and becoming more humanist in nature. To me that is a wonderful transformation. I love where they are going and I truly believe it was our generation that did the most damage then any other time in history. Hopefully it's not to late for our children to bring that around." So you think the world is getting better? By what standards are you measuring it? Yes Bert, I do think the world is getting better. It is becoming a more tolerant world for the things we should have never been intolerant about. Religions are starting to show more tolerance for each other. Whites a showing more tolerance for non-whites, our younger generation and some of the older generation are becoming more conscious of the planet they live on, more people are protesting injustices that we never used to blink an eye at. More people are thinking for themselves and evaluating the truth and dangers of believing in all the things our ancestors believed in whether they were good for humanity or not. More people are leaving the traditional religions and connecting to their version of God in a more personal way that does away with exclusivity and dogma. Yes it is becoming a better world in my estimation. Have a look at this TED talk by Steven Pinker: www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence
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Post by pianoman2 on Apr 13, 2014 11:00:14 GMT -5
When you have nothing, you have nothing to offer................
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 11:56:40 GMT -5
When you have nothing, you have nothing to offer................ No one has nothing. You will always have yourself and that is the most precious thing we have to offer others, ourselves.
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Post by Gene on Apr 13, 2014 17:30:36 GMT -5
SnowQuote - "I definitely disagree with this. Our children are far more environmentally conscious than we ever were." That's not my point. We trade one virtue for another. We are warned about loving the creation more than the creator. And believe me - not many greenies are into loving God.Quote - "They are more vegan, they are composting they are fighting against GMO foods." Vegan has no spiritual merit. Vegans I know are quite happy to cheat, lie and steal. (I lived with a bunch of them once.) Their "morals" are in their food. Composting is good. I am a fanatic composter - but it aint religion. GM food is the safest food in the world as it is the only food which has been tested. Denying it condemns future generations - and has a similar intellectual merit to the anti-vaccine lobby. in third world countries to starvation.Quote - "They are also protesting war..." I just checked to see if "peace movement" websites were ignoring the incredibly dangerous situation in Ukraine. I was wrong - they hadn't ignored it, they were promoting the Russian invasion. If George Bush invaded Crimea your "peace" protesters would be in full swing, supporting Crimea as they supported Uncle Joe Stalin, Uncle Mao, Uncle ho-ho Ho Chi Minh and even "uncle" Sadaam Hussein. Don't make me sick.Quote - "and going out to third world countries to help." What, like Africa? I gave to Africa in the 1960's, I gave to Africa in the 1970's, I gave to Africa in the 1980's, I gave to Africa in the 1990's and I gave to Africa in the 2000's. No more. You will find many people (and this now includes politicized churches)who will denounce Capitalism, technology, Capitalism, GM foods, Capitalism, trade, Capitalism, globalization, Capitalism and the like - THE VERY THINGS WHICH HELPED MAKE POOR ASIANS RICH. That is to say - such churches don't care to understand the reasons for poverty, anymore than they understand the bible.Quote - "I truly do believe they are leaving the churches and becoming more humanist in nature. To me that is a wonderful transformation. I love where they are going and I truly believe it was our generation that did the most damage then any other time in history. Hopefully it's not to late for our children to bring that around." So you think the world is getting better? By what standards are you measuring it? Yes Bert, I do think the world is getting better. It is becoming a more tolerant world for the things we should have never been intolerant about. Religions are starting to show more tolerance for each other. Whites a showing more tolerance for non-whites, our younger generation and some of the older generation are becoming more conscious of the planet they live on, more people are protesting injustices that we never used to blink an eye at. More people are thinking for themselves and evaluating the truth and dangers of believing in all the things our ancestors believed in whether they were good for humanity or not. More people are leaving the traditional religions and connecting to their version of God in a more personal way that does away with exclusivity and dogma. Yes it is becoming a better world in my estimation. Have a look at this TED talk by Steven Pinker: www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violenceI agree, Snow. And much of the progress is due to people speaking up and saying "we're not taking this any more." And, so, they've elected representatives, who in turn have appointed justices, who, together, have put into place, for example, laws requiring banks to put customers before profits, and laws requiring local governments and businesses to respect the rights of the individual for self-determination. I see progress.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 13, 2014 18:04:46 GMT -5
What is religion for, anyway? Can't the REAL CORE NEED for Christianity by itself draw people to religion?
What does it say about a religion whose young people join for the friendship, the sports, and in some places the education and the health care? What did Jesus have besides his "message"?
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 18:38:39 GMT -5
there is suppose to be a falling away at the end. it must come to pass that Christ be revealed with his second coming and also that the son of perdition be revealed... 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; You've learned all the 2x2 lines haven't you Wally. How else can you explain it when people just aren't putting up with the deceit anymore, the blind eye to CSA, the spiritual hierarchy and they vote with their feet. Must be that 'falling away' that was predicted towards the end that always seems to get moved further forward every time it doesn't happen. Snow ~ More like a "falling away from deception," which in God's eyes, I suspect, would be a good thing? Jesus would never advocate living a double life to suit the workers. He believed in living a transparent life and being an example to the world through compassion and moral values. The Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5 - 7) comes to mind as the foundation he would recommend building upon today ~ not covering up your misdeeds to appear righteous before men. He also addressed this fact in relation to the religious crowd of his day in Matthew 23. Not exactly praises coming from his mouth ~ more like woes for their hypocrisy!
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Post by faune on Apr 13, 2014 18:53:00 GMT -5
This younger generation must be engaged or they will totally lose it. Some of my cousins kids play in a church band. I know some young people who play church sports. These experiences puts a good taste in young people's mouths for the fellowship they grow up in. And they aren't writing about their unhappy church upbringing on some message board. Workers praise young people for standing true yet don't realize how some of them behave behind their backs. Even when young professing people seem fairly normal, hyprocrisy can rear its head. Girls dress differently around older meeting people than when they get together for sleepovers. Some young men cover up tats yet display them when they go on hiking trips. Young people need to be themselves. It is hard on one's nerves to be one person here and another person there. I agree, it can be quite damaging and stressful to lead a double life. For a time when I professed, I had pierced ears and took them out when I was around friends and wore them at work and home. Likewise I had a TV, occasionally wore pants etc- I definitely wasn't as 'clean' as I appeared The endless focus on external spiritual appearances drive me mad in the end.
Honestly, kids changing clothes for the workers goes way back in time. I did that myself, too, when I was a teen during the 60's. Jeans were in and dresses were out except for Sunday morning meeting!
However, something I find much worse would be workers committing CSA while professing to be God's anointed and putting on a show of righteous living when such evil lurks in their hearts! One thing for sure, that's an obvious "red flag" in the area of deception and immoral behavior, while also being a preacher within the "only perfect way."
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