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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2014 19:47:34 GMT -5
Dubious, I do have a question though. John would not have been able to study any of the gospels that we have now because they were not around to study at that point. He would have had his Hebrew books and writings, but the NT wasn't in existence when he is said to have written Revelation. So when you say there are references in revelations to other writings, it is possible that the other writings were written AFTER John did his writing and some of the references were just actual references in the gospels to John's writings. In other words, he was the source of some of the things you believe he referenced. Not saying this is true, but it is a thought knowing the gospels were not written by who they are named after and not by eye witnesses and after the destruction of Jerusalem. I propose in my book that Revelation was written about 80 CE. My work is historical/critical, so I tie it to historical events as best I can, and this timeframe fits the best for that kind of analysis. That means Revelation was written after Mark but probably before the other gospels. However, Mark didn't seem to influence Revelation so much (unless you think Revelation's description of the war came solely from Mark's description). More likely, Revelation was actually combating the passive portrayal of Jesus in Mark, insisting on a more traditional messianic figure. But there are TONS of references to Hebrew scriptures and to other Jewish writings. The book of Enoch considerably influenced Revelation (and other New Testament documents). So did the book of Jubilees...that's where the idea of a replacement city for the destroyed Jerusalem (the New Jerusalem) descending out of heaven comes from. You are right, though, that some Jewish writings very similar to Revelation came after Revelation. We don't always know who borrowed from whom. Did Revelation borrow from Esdras, from the later books of Enoch, etc? Depends on how you date them. How about this verse: "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. " That's in 2 Thess, which I argue borrowed from Revelation rather than vice versa. I think it was written about 90 CE. Is that before or after Rev? Depends on how you date them. It's all rather fascinating actually. The dating of all of the bible is all over the place. There are some passages taken almost verbatim like the synoptic gospels, but even they had to add their own bits to it to appeal to the crowd they were writing for. DMG mentioned that it has been speculated that Revelation was written by more than one author. I have also read that The Gospel of John was not written by John, but my his favorite disciple Mary Magdalene. So many different thoughts out there, but no real way of knowing anything concrete.
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2014 19:59:41 GMT -5
I certainly wouldn't take what John hallucinated and call it a Revelation. To him it very likely seemed very real. So he wrote it down. It appealed to some who like that kind of thing as they seem to continue to like it now. That doesn't mean it has any relevance in reality. It's was John's delusion. He had a right to it. But for us to take it as guidance, is ludicrous as so much of what is in the bible is. The bible is a collection of individual opinions about what they thought life and death was. Some of them thought about it more than others. Doesn't make any of it any more conclusive than all the opinions we have on TMB really. Snow ~ You make it real hard on those who take the Bible as being inerrant from Genesis to Revelation. However, perhaps it never was meant to be taken literally and that's where the discrepancy lies ~ we are reading more into scripture than was intended?
Well the bible doesn't make it easy to believe it is inspired or inerrant so I would say it's not my fault! We now know that the bible is probably an effort to put into words people's understanding of their world as they saw it and some of it is written in symbolism, which is never to be taken literally. I must confess, I don't know how anyone in this day and age could ever believe the bible is inerrant. Obviously it must take a lot of faith and I failed in that subject.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 22:56:32 GMT -5
<abbr data-timestamp="1397263654000" class="time" title="Apr 11, 2014 19:47:34 GMT -5">Apr 11, 2014 19:47:34 GMT -5</abbr> snow said It's all rather fascinating actually. The dating of all of the bible is all over the place. There are some passages taken almost verbatim like the synoptic gospels, but even they had to add their own bits to it to appeal to the crowd they were writing for. DMG mentioned that it has been speculated that Revelation was written by more than one author. I have also read that The Gospel of John was not written by John, but my his favorite disciple Mary Magdalene. So many different thoughts out there, but no real way of knowing anything concrete.
Yes, there are so many different thoughts, -that is why it really shouldn't get people upset.
No Christian would get upset about something that wasn't set concrete in the Vedas.
There is so many more really important subjects that we should bend our thoughts toward.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 11, 2014 23:10:20 GMT -5
The book of Revelation[ has been quite controversial throughout history amongst biblical scholars.
Do I understand it correctly that Revelation isn't considered canonical by some of the Christian denominations? In particular, the Eastern Orthodox?
I seem to recall there being heated debate as to whether or not to include this book in the "official" list. From wiki... It seems that 100 AD is the deadline to get your "papers" submitted and be included in the official canon.
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2014 0:51:02 GMT -5
The book of Revelation[ has been quite controversial throughout history amongst biblical scholars.
Do I understand it correctly that Revelation isn't considered canonical by some of the Christian denominations? In particular, the Eastern Orthodox?
I seem to recall there being heated debate as to whether or not to include this book in the "official" list. It seems that 100 AD is the deadline to get your "papers" submitted and be included in the official canon. P-) A tricky feat since AD/BC wasn't yet invented!
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 12, 2014 2:37:13 GMT -5
All I know is that a good buddy of mine who goes by the name "Mohammed" tried to submit a book called "Koran" to the committee of those who approve what is officially God's word but he missed a deadline and was rejected.
So he told them to pound sand and started his own business. It's doing well the last I heard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 3:26:19 GMT -5
could have Virgo, can you answer the question of this thread, "Is the Book of Revelation fake?" in any more of an affirmative way?
nah just agreeing with what you posted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 3:29:37 GMT -5
I disagree again. I think we have considerable historical evidence to know what John was thinking about as he wrote. I went verse-by-verse through the whole book, explaining its first-century context. DD, I do respect your research of the scripture and realize that you have spent a lot of time & effort on the subject.
The book of Revelation[ has been quite controversial throughout history amongst biblical scholars.
Do I understand it correctly that Revelation isn't considered canonical by some of the Christian denominations? In particular, the Eastern Orthodox?
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 10:00:43 GMT -5
All I know is that a good buddy of mine who goes by the name "Mohammed" tried to submit a book called "Koran" to the committee of those who approve what is officially God's word but he missed a deadline and was rejected. So he told them to pound sand and started his own business. It's doing well the last I heard. LOL thanks for the early morning chuckle!!
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 10:01:47 GMT -5
DD, I do respect your research of the scripture and realize that you have spent a lot of time & effort on the subject.
The book of Revelation[ has been quite controversial throughout history amongst biblical scholars.
Do I understand it correctly that Revelation isn't considered canonical by some of the Christian denominations? In particular, the Eastern Orthodox?
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 12, 2014 13:29:52 GMT -5
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol I feel a bit miffed since there is no way I could ever have been a "babe".
The fact that I have sprouted a small pair of B-cups in my later years notwithstanding. Its mostly diet related and not something I am proud of.
My choice of being born a white male was made with the understanding that this would give me the greatest of advantages in life. Sadly I now understand that your average swimsuit model has greater revelation than I in things regarding the divine realm.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 12, 2014 13:39:00 GMT -5
Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol I feel a bit miffed since there is no way I could ever have been a "babe".
The fact that I have sprouted a small pair of B-cups in my later years notwithstanding. Its mostly diet related and not something I am proud of.
My choice of being born a white male was made with the understanding that this would give me the greatest of advantages in life. Sadly I now understand that your average swimsuit model has greater revelation than I in things regarding the divine realm. I empathize with your situation, Gecko. Like so many decisions we make in life, one of the most important decisions we make is who our ancestors will be, and it hardly seems "fair" that we are forced to make that decision at such an early "staqe" in life. Could someone please give me directions to the "complaint' department to see if these "rules' couldn't be changed, maybe even retroactively, and reimbursement of some sort, and then we could all say together and in unison we've come a loooooooooong way, babe". Alvin
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 15:46:43 GMT -5
Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol I feel a bit miffed since there is no way I could ever have been a "babe".
The fact that I have sprouted a small pair of B-cups in my later years notwithstanding. Its mostly diet related and not something I am proud of.
My choice of being born a white male was made with the understanding that this would give me the greatest of advantages in life. Sadly I now understand that your average swimsuit model has greater revelation than I in things regarding the divine realm. Well maybe that's what they mean by 'women's intuition'? We are just more 'equipped' to 'understand'... However, it does seem very unfair that as we age, even women lose this 'insight' just when they likely need it the most lol...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2014 16:21:29 GMT -5
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol Me neither! And here it was my impression that I would get wiser as I got older! Oh, Woe is me! I'm undone.
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Post by xna on Apr 12, 2014 16:31:10 GMT -5
A pastor went out one Saturday to visit his church members. At one house, it was obvious that someone was home, but nobody came to the door even though the preacher knocked several times. Finally, the preacher took out his card, wrote out “Revelation 3:20″ on the back of it, and stuck it in the door.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with me. – Revelation 3:20
The next day, the card turned up in the collection plate. Below the preacher’s message was written the following notation:
I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself. – Genesis 3:10
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2014 16:42:11 GMT -5
A pastor went out one Saturday to visit his church members. At one house, it was obvious that someone was home, but nobody came to the door even though the preacher knocked several times. Finally, the preacher took out his card, wrote out “Revelation 3:20″ on the back of it, and stuck it in the door. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with me. – Revelation 3:20 The next day, the card turned up in the collection plate. Below the preacher’s message was written the following notation: I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself. – Genesis 3:10 Thanks for that! rolling on the floor laughing (but not in my birthday suit-the floor is too dirty,)- Opps, -guess I'd better get of this #*% damn addictive computer & clean the floors up a bit!
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Post by pianoman2 on Apr 13, 2014 2:21:06 GMT -5
Bertie, good to see you hanging in there tooth and nail. You may want to get a safety cable in case you fall, but it looks like you are hanging in there and may even have some converts. Converts to what, I don't know but keep up the work. One day this little light will go on and there will appear a bubble that says "That makes no sense and in fact is the opposite of what I read and know to be true". Til then, keep on clawing for the 2x2's and watch as it slowly shrinks to next to nothing as more truth comes out about it.......... er, thanks Pianoman. What part of the message to the seven churches in Revelation do you think I am struggling with? (plenty elsewhere in Revelations to give you a headache!!!) Bert, I think you are struggling with the whole 2x2 thing, but hang in there. Like I said, I was there and I had my eyes opened, so it can happen to you also.....Good luck
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 5:01:34 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism?
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 9:45:02 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism? Why is it important to find any new church? Really? What do they have to offer that just living doesn't offer?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 13, 2014 10:03:35 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism? Why is it important to find any new church? Really? What do they have to offer that just living doesn't offer? Quite a bit, snow. For me, churches offer companionship, fellowship, encouragement, and a means of participating in coordinated humanitarian efforts.
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Post by pianoman2 on Apr 13, 2014 11:04:16 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism? I am not looking for 2x2's, 3x3's but I could use some good 4x4's We are repairing a house and it needs wood. Seriously, I don't need to follow anyone on this earth. If you do, you may get over it. If not, well the 2x2's are as good as some others. Do you have Amish there, Bert?
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 13:39:04 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism? I am not looking for 2x2's, 3x3's but I could use some good 4x4's We are repairing a house and it needs wood. But you will be disappointed when you discover they are 4x4's in name only and are really 3 3/ 4 X 3 3/ 4's!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2014 14:47:31 GMT -5
I am not looking for 2x2's, 3x3's but I could use some good 4x4's We are repairing a house and it needs wood. But you will be disappointed when you discover they are 4x4's in name only and are really 3 3/ 4 X 3 3/ 4's! Consider yourself lucky. A 4 x 4 is only 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" in most places!
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2014 16:55:49 GMT -5
Why is it important to find any new church? Really? What do they have to offer that just living doesn't offer? Quite a bit, snow. For me, churches offer companionship, fellowship, encouragement, and a means of participating in coordinated humanitarian efforts. I have found that I can do coordinated humanitarian efforts without belonging to a church that will only judge me and preach at me. I have no desire for that kind of companionship at all. The judging that goes on in churches upsets me and I would never feel comfortable. In the real world for some reason it doesn't bother me. Maybe because it's just normal stuff instead of the self righteousness I have been on the receiving end of whenever I'm around church people. I am glad that hasn't been your experience and that you do find companionship, fellowship, encouragement while in their midst.
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Post by pianoman2 on Apr 13, 2014 23:42:25 GMT -5
Aw Rat. I gotta correct you. If you buy finished or planed 4x4s then you are correct, but if you buy unfinished lumber they are 4x4s. Sorry, but I know how you are about facts.......
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Post by faune on Apr 14, 2014 0:16:07 GMT -5
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Well no wonder I know nothing!! I haven't been a 'babe' for a lot of years now... lol Snow ~ Neither have I, so don't feel bad! Honestly, your words reminded me of that old Sony and Cher song, "I Got You Babe" which they made back in the 1970's when they were young themselves. www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsO8R8u0MYk
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Post by faune on Apr 14, 2014 0:30:57 GMT -5
So what did you find after "2x2"ism? 3x3'ism? 1x'ism? Bert ~ One word would describe it ~ Freedom!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 0:40:28 GMT -5
So when Jesus sent out the twelve and the seventy, and then the hundred or more we read in Acts and Epistles - you wouldn't be with them. And maybe, you would be with the Jews and Pagans, just reciting poety, doing theatre or dancing like Laurel and Hardy?
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