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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 0:28:26 GMT -5
It's amazing, these stories you read. You are left wondering what the context is, what is the other side of the account, or for that matter - if it's even true at all. The fact that you make obtuse remarks about the possible lack of veracity of the stories rather than probing the storytellers for more information is an indication that you are not really interested in the truth. Ask, probe, get all the information available, then you can properly decide if you should reject the stories as being untrue. Or have you already decided that Bob Williston is lying?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 0:32:58 GMT -5
Ok, I am asking, why would a Worker stop a conversation to ask a question of someone? Never seen such a thing in thousands of meetings, nor have I heard of such a thing. Theories, please. No, wait, facts please!
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Post by fred on Apr 11, 2014 0:34:24 GMT -5
It's amazing, these stories you read. You are left wondering what the context is, what is the other side of the account, or for that matter - if it's even true at all. That's just it ,Bert, a lot of theses stories seem absolutely beyond the pale, things you would expect no normal person to be involved with. However, even if only half of them were factually true and an accurate reports, it would cause the ordinary person to pause and consider.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 2:37:13 GMT -5
Might help if you got some specifics, fred. Here few questions are answered, few terms are defined, few anecdotes make sense. All this smells of spiritual thuggery.
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Post by whyisitso on Apr 11, 2014 6:53:54 GMT -5
Might help if you got some specifics, fred. Here few questions are answered, few terms are defined, few anecdotes make sense. All this smells of spiritual thuggery. That's rather ignorant don't you think Bert? I think the person above stated what happened to them. IE It wasn't one of those fables like they preach from the platform (oops, sorry. Wrong thread) and I stated exactly what happened to me. Seems like you don't trust anyone Bert. Do you even trust yourself? I could go into my story of being bullied out of 'the truth' but I'm sure you could look back on my posts and you'll find it on here. That's actually probably a really good example of Spiritual Bullying. But anyway according to you it's probably all thuggery and in some way shape or form we would have deserved it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 6:58:22 GMT -5
Please define "spiritual bullying" and demonstrate how your definition is not biblical. I mean, lots of people get told what to do in the bible. And as for someone claiming they were asked something by a Worker during that Worker's own preaching -- yeah right, something missing here, as if that happens every day.
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Post by ellie on Apr 11, 2014 7:58:11 GMT -5
There is still an undercurrent of bullying with regards to the role of women among the F&W. Mainly it comes from the sister workers and sometimes the older women. Many seem to have this fixation that women should be cooking up roast dinners rather than be out working. Little do they realise that for some (myself included) working contributes to the marriage in a far more practical way than cooking roast dinners could. So there's these little comments and questions with underlying hints. How many days/hours are you working? Strange questions re looking after (aka mothering) husbands. Fortunately my other half refuted the last direct hint I received from a sister worker. This was in front of the meeting crowd. Sometimes it honestly feels like I need to come prepared with a memorised list of rebuttals around some of the older sister workers. As for stopping the bullying whether spiritual or otherwise most sensible people stop once their argument or comments are refuted once. (For me it's been a different sister worker every time making the silly comments) This is probably a really stupid question but why do you put up with this? Truthfulness starts with the rank and file. If everyone said "No" and didn't engage when asked about matters considered personal there would be little to talk about. Rat good question actually. I would certainly not put up with this if it were repeated by the same woman. My problem is that these women employ subtle and also clever tactics. They pick their target, take a shot and move on. If it’s me I only get the one chance to be assertive and say no I am not interested in those types of comments or in the present topic of conversation. Maybe I should say that I don’t find the conversation edifying? Basically I need to be pretty prepared to catch this.
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 8:26:41 GMT -5
Isn't is spiritual bullying any time some one speaks about their way being the only true way when there are so many ways out there? Isn't it spiritual bullying when Christians tell non Christians they are going to hell if they don't give their life to Jesus? Isn't it bullying when one religious group condemns another group to their particular version of hell? Well you get the idea. Evangelical Christians that think it's their God given right and duty to tell people how to live their lives don't have any choice but to be spiritual bullies imo. It is difficult (impossible??) for a non-spiritual person to experience spiritual bullying. A christian telling me I am going to hell has little meaning to me. The point is, spiritual bullying only works if the victim allows it and believes what the offender is telling them. Why do people allow their abusers to manipulate them with things they do not believe? To stop bullying step back and try to objectively evaluate what is being said and ask yourself what parts of it you believe.
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 8:29:15 GMT -5
I'd have to say that having my prayer criticized was damaging to how I spoke as it made me so self conscious when praying. I felt like I was being judged on everything that came out of my mouth. Then several years later being told I ummmed & arrred to much.... Well I didn't speak in meeting for 6 mths after that I was so mortified. Even now 15 odd yrs later when I speak in meetings at work I freeze! I wasn't like that before. Anyway, I'm certain a lot worse has been said to people. That was just my 2 cents worth :) I've been called on the carpet by workers and meeting elder because I apparently was praying for people who were kicked out of meetings. You'd think they'd be ashamed of themselves -- they should have been praying for them themselves. The worst I ever witnessed in a meeting was when the sister worker interrupted her sermon, looked at my wife, and said "Do you have something to say to me?" No one in the room had a clue what she was talking about, including my wife. When she saw that my wife didn't get it, she repeated herself, "Do you have something to say to me?" My wife just sat totally stunned. Then the worker fiddled with her Bible, lamented that she had lost her train of thought, and then carried on. My wife has not been in a meeting since. By the way, my wife is very deaf, and sometimes she whispers quietly to herself. But on that occasion no one, even the man sitting beside her, said they had not even heard her whispering. What did you say to the worker, Bob?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 8:57:58 GMT -5
You're not off the hook Rational. "Spiritual bullying" is often code for "moral bullying" In our church some might feel "spiritually" bullied for something that the "bully" feels is moral. Only the one bullied might not concede it's a moral issue because he or she takes their moral cues from a different set of values, ie outside the church. An example of "moral bullying" is when a vegan treats you, a meat eater, with disgust. Or you have a bad name and people cross the street to avoid you. Or you are now told you cannot smoke 10m from from any building entrance (as is happening now in Australia.)
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2014 11:02:12 GMT -5
Isn't is spiritual bullying any time some one speaks about their way being the only true way when there are so many ways out there? Isn't it spiritual bullying when Christians tell non Christians they are going to hell if they don't give their life to Jesus? Isn't it bullying when one religious group condemns another group to their particular version of hell? Well you get the idea. Evangelical Christians that think it's their God given right and duty to tell people how to live their lives don't have any choice but to be spiritual bullies imo. It is difficult (impossible??) for a non-spiritual person to experience spiritual bullying. A christian telling me I am going to hell has little meaning to me. The point is, spiritual bullying only works if the victim allows it and believes what the offender is telling them. Why do people allow their abusers to manipulate them with things they do not believe? To stop bullying step back and try to objectively evaluate what is being said and ask yourself what parts of it you believe. But I wasn't referring to atheists. I was referring to people of other religions. They can be spiritually bullied, if they let themselves be. In other words, not for lack of trying. Of course it takes two to tango.
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 12:00:30 GMT -5
Isn't is spiritual bullying any time some one speaks about their way being the only true way when there are so many ways out there? Isn't it spiritual bullying when Christians tell non Christians they are going to hell if they don't give their life to Jesus? Isn't it bullying when one religious group condemns another group to their particular version of hell? Well you get the idea. Evangelical Christians that think it's their God given right and duty to tell people how to live their lives don't have any choice but to be spiritual bullies imo.Snow ~ I can understand your rationale here, especially when you are the recipient of such remarks. Unfortunately, many forget what Jesus said about judging our fellow man in Matthew 7:1-5 in his Sermon on the Mount?
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 12:12:19 GMT -5
Rational shared...
Rational ~ I know you speak from experience, as my husband is an agnostic/atheist and he feels the same way as you do. He could care less what conclusions that Christians draw regarding the state of his soul. In fact, he jokes a lot about it. I have learned to accept his POV as different from my own and nothing more. He has a right to his POV based upon his experiences and gained knowledge over the years, which is why I say nothing to convince him otherwise. If people aren't seeking after divine guidance, than Christians shouldn't impose their own views upon them. JMT
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2014 12:25:26 GMT -5
Rational shared...
Rational ~ I know you speak from experience, as my husband is an agnostic/atheist and he feels the same way as you do. He could care less what conclusions that Christians draw regarding the state of his soul. In fact, he jokes a lot about it. I have learned to accept his POV as different from my own and nothing more. He has a right to his POV based upon his experiences and gained knowledge over the years, which is why I say nothing to convince him otherwise. If people aren't seeking after divine guidance, than Christians shouldn't impose their own views upon them. JMT I am guessing your husband once professed? It's none of my business, so no need to reply about your situation, but I notice a lot of posts from ex 2x2 who did not join another church, but lost all belief in god. I wonder if this is common, or are atheist just more frequent posters?
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 12:48:31 GMT -5
Rational shared... Rational ~ I know you speak from experience, as my husband is an agnostic/atheist and he feels the same way as you do. He could care less what conclusions that Christians draw regarding the state of his soul. In fact, he jokes a lot about it. I have learned to accept his POV as different from my own and nothing more. He has a right to his POV based upon his experiences and gained knowledge over the years, which is why I say nothing to convince him otherwise. If people aren't seeking after divine guidance, than Christians shouldn't impose their own views upon them. JMT
I am guessing your husband once professed? It's none of my business, so no need to reply about your situation, but I notice a lot of posts from ex 2x2 who did not join another church, but lost all belief in god. I wonder if this is common, or are atheist just more frequent posters? Xna ~ You guessed right about my husband professing at one time ~ in fact, for 10 years before he lost faith in all religion in general due to some senior workers really ticking him off with their comments at a particularly difficult time in our lives. My experience can be found at the bottom of Page 1 on this same thread in my response to Ellie's post.
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2014 12:56:21 GMT -5
Rational shared... Rational ~ I know you speak from experience, as my husband is an agnostic/atheist and he feels the same way as you do. He could care less what conclusions that Christians draw regarding the state of his soul. In fact, he jokes a lot about it. I have learned to accept his POV as different from my own and nothing more. He has a right to his POV based upon his experiences and gained knowledge over the years, which is why I say nothing to convince him otherwise. If people aren't seeking after divine guidance, than Christians shouldn't impose their own views upon them. JMT
I am guessing your husband once professed? It's none of my business, so no need to reply about your situation, but I notice a lot of posts from ex 2x2 who did not join another church, but lost all belief in god. I wonder if this is common, or are atheist just more frequent posters? I think more stayed in the Christian religion and just sought out another church. At least that what I have seen on here and TLC when I was there. People like dmg and I went to no belief in God and no other religion. Rational has never had a belief in God even though he grew up in a professing family. Some of us are agnostic and others atheist. I usually rank myself as agnostic because I don't know if their is an intelligence that somehow has any say over what we see, but I definitely don't believe it's the Christian God or any of the Gods of the various religions I have studied. So that's my view on it anyway.
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2014 13:04:48 GMT -5
You guessed right about my husband professing at one time ~
---------------
Thanks
I wasn't following this thread very close. Sounds like that was a difficult experience.
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 13:30:56 GMT -5
You guessed right about my husband professing at one time ~ --------------- Thanks I wasn't following this thread very close. Sounds like that was a difficult experience. Xna ~ Perhaps I should share the rest of the details of this story which I just relayed earlier in a response to a PM I received from a member of this board who got similar treatment from the F&W's in their area. Perhaps when it comes to fiery trials in our lives and the test of our faith, this incident often comes up in my memory as being a major one in my own experience?
I guess I've always been a believer in that old saying about "God helps those who help themselves." In other words, when hard times occur in one's life, you just can't do nothing and hope that the mountain is going to move on it's own accord, without some effort on your part. We never asked anybody for help with our problem ~ we did what we felt was necessary to survive in a bad economy and it eventually worked out well for us in the end.
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2014 13:43:38 GMT -5
I usually rank myself as agnostic because I don't know if their is an intelligence that somehow has any say over what we see, but I definitely don't believe it's the Christian God or any of the Gods of the various religions I have studied.
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Thanks for the insight.
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 14:02:54 GMT -5
I usually rank myself as agnostic because I don't know if their is an intelligence that somehow has any say over what we see, but I definitely don't believe it's the Christian God or any of the Gods of the various religions I have studied. ------------- Thanks for the insight. Xna ~ You should check our my fairly new thread on "Glimpses into Eternity" regarding different NDE's and how people relate them to what can be expected in the afterlife in spite of what you believe to be true or not. Nanci Danison's website is especially interesting to check out concerning the meaning behind these NDE's, too.
professing.proboards.com/thread/21966/glimpses-eternity-dr-ramond-moody?page=2
ndestories.org/nanci-danison/ (Nanci Danison ~ NDE Stories, Videos & More)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iezgq2bNbJU (Nanci Danison ~ The Ripple Effect After an NDE)
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2014 14:48:07 GMT -5
I usually rank myself as agnostic because I don't know if their is an intelligence that somehow has any say over what we see, but I definitely don't believe it's the Christian God or any of the Gods of the various religions I have studied. ------------- Thanks for the insight. Xna ~ You should check our my fairly new thread on "Glimpses into Eternity" regarding different NDE's and how people relate them to what can be expected in the afterlife in spite of what you believe to be true or not. Nanci Danison's website is especially interesting to check out concerning the meaning behind these NDE's, too.
professing.proboards.com/thread/21966/glimpses-eternity-dr-ramond-moody?page=2
ndestories.org/nanci-danison/ (Nanci Danison ~ NDE Stories, Videos & More)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iezgq2bNbJU (Nanci Danison ~ The Ripple Effect After an NDE)
Ok I watched parts of the clip. I wasn't so convinced. I think my skeptical brain kicked in when an alive person says "I died March 14, 1994, but thanks for sharing. However I don't believe she is misrepresenting her experience like some psychic reader's. I recently heard about a new rat death experiment. The study showed, at least in the mammalian brain there are measurable changes in brain waves that are associated with, awake heighten activity. www.snacc.org/documents/Borjigin_et_al.pdf
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 15:56:44 GMT -5
Spiritual bullies are insecure. They want you to share some of their misery. They are in most if not all religious beliefs. The less accountability of openess in the group, the more these bullies exist. Stop spiritual bullying in your meeting, club, church etc.. Don't expect the leaders to do anything about it and they may be bullies themselves. This problem is worse in a "one true way" because people associate the group with eternal life.
Spiritual bullies give money to the organization and its leadership in order to get more power and CONTROL. They are sick in the head and will make you sick in the head if you give them power, place and your fear. They go to the restroom just like you do..their bodily waste stinks just like yours. Don't let them get away with it.
Often there is no reason or rhyme to their chastisement. Other than a lust for power by the bully. Friends don't let friends be bullied. If you have bullied people before, you don't have to do so in the future. Repent and admit your faults to the victim.
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 16:05:58 GMT -5
Xna ~ This was my response to Dmmichgood's comment regarding NDE's as a known atheist on this Board. I spoke of Anita Moorjani's experience where she ended up being healed of a terminal disease as a result of her NDE. I also shared the change in Nanci's Danison's attitude from being raised Roman Catholic to what she believes to be reality today. Her response would remind you more of New Thought concepts out of New Age teachings, IMHO? I liked the answer she gave in the last short video on what she took away from her NDE experience in relation to religious teachings of the past within her church.* You should check this one out for your amusement, as it's pretty easy to comprehend in the last link cited below?
However, as a Christian and believer in God, I find this topic pretty interesting to explore and have researched it for quite some time now. I even read a book on the topic a while back entitled, "The Big Book of Near Death Experiences by P.M.H. Asweet thinger. It's a fascinating research study done on all types of NDE's for the curious seeker of information regarding this strange occurrence and I would recommend it to anybody seeking more information on this topic.
www.amazon.com/The-Big-Book-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/1571745475 (The Big Book of Near Death Experiences)
www.amazon.com/P.M.H.-Asweet thinger/e/B001H6IZY4/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_pop_1 (P.M.H. Asweet thinger's books on NDE's)
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Post by faune on Apr 11, 2014 17:15:55 GMT -5
Rational ~ It looks like the "automatic editor" on TMB is at it again scrambling my posts according to my last posting on this thread? Is there a cure for this strange occurrence?
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 17:17:25 GMT -5
But I wasn't referring to atheists. I was referring to people.
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 17:19:40 GMT -5
Rational ~ It looks like the "automatic editor" on TMB is at it again scrambling my posts according to my last posting on this thread? Is there a cure for this strange occurrence? Looks to me like everything is working exactly as expected. What did you think was the error?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 11, 2014 17:24:09 GMT -5
I've been called on the carpet by workers and meeting elder because I apparently was praying for people who were kicked out of meetings. You'd think they'd be ashamed of themselves -- they should have been praying for them themselves. The worst I ever witnessed in a meeting was when the sister worker interrupted her sermon, looked at my wife, and said "Do you have something to say to me?" No one in the room had a clue what she was talking about, including my wife. When she saw that my wife didn't get it, she repeated herself, "Do you have something to say to me?" My wife just sat totally stunned. Then the worker fiddled with her Bible, lamented that she had lost her train of thought, and then carried on. My wife has not been in a meeting since. By the way, my wife is very deaf, and sometimes she whispers quietly to herself. But on that occasion no one, even the man sitting beside her, said they had not even heard her whispering. What did you say to the worker, Bob? Well, I said a lot. And it took 8 days to get it all done. Four or 5 months later she wrote a letter and suggested she could come and "help" us, so I wrote her a 2 page letter explaining what she would have to deal with if she were serious about helping, gently explained that I would understand if she felt incapable of dealing with it -- and the only thing we heard from her since was a sympathy card 4 months after than when my mother in law died, with the new workers list and Bible Study List enclosed. Apologize for something -- not on your life.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 11, 2014 17:25:17 GMT -5
Isn't is spiritual bullying any time some one speaks about their way being the only true way when there are so many ways out there? Isn't it spiritual bullying when Christians tell non Christians they are going to hell if they don't give their life to Jesus? Isn't it bullying when one religious group condemns another group to their particular version of hell? Well you get the idea. Evangelical Christians that think it's their God given right and duty to tell people how to live their lives don't have any choice but to be spiritual bullies imo. It is difficult (impossible??) for a non-spiritual person to experience spiritual bullying. A christian telling me I am going to hell has little meaning to me. The point is, spiritual bullying only works if the victim allows it and believes what the offender is telling them. Why do people allow their abusers to manipulate them with things they do not believe? To stop bullying step back and try to objectively evaluate what is being said and ask yourself what parts of it you believe. ABSOLUTELY SO.
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