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Post by xna on Apr 8, 2014 23:03:33 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Job's suffering.
It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved.
I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 8, 2014 23:36:49 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Noah suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. The problem with monotheism is that the believers cannot reconcile suffering with God's nature. Their god is supposed to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. These are not compatible characteristics in one who permits suffering/evil.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 0:02:46 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Noah suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. the purest Gold comes from the hottest fire as they say...
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Post by xna on Apr 9, 2014 5:57:25 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Noah suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. the purest Gold comes from the hottest fire as they say... Are you saying that the F&W see the suffering of "dennisj" as god at work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Post by snow on Apr 9, 2014 9:36:52 GMT -5
some of them probably. Many Christians seem to think suffering is necessary. Not true. It's just a part of life. Doesn't do anything other than cause pain. I know because I live daily with lots of it and will till I die.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 10:37:18 GMT -5
the purest Gold comes from the hottest fire as they say... Are you saying that the F&W see the suffering of "dennisj" as god at work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk everything happens for a reason...
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 9, 2014 10:40:28 GMT -5
xna In the thread Good without God thread I pointed out that in judges that Israel went through cycles Rebellion, Retibution, Reconciliation and then Restoration. So then retribution is what some call suffering/trials when it is really correction.That correction saw the children be given over to the people of other Gods for a period of time. Then there is pruning to produce more fruit that can be painful also but in the end more fruitful and more help to others. I believe that when we ask God he will show us the purpose for everything in our lives. ken
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Post by What Hat on Apr 9, 2014 11:37:08 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 12:24:37 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Noah suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. the purest Gold comes from the hottest fire as they say... So let's all go to hell. I think they made that saying up to excuse oneself of responsibility for something.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:26:30 GMT -5
although witty, i would never wish for that to happen...
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 12:26:52 GMT -5
some of them probably. Many Christians seem to think suffering is necessary. Not true. It's just a part of life. Doesn't do anything other than cause pain. I know because I live daily with lots of it and will till I die. The American Protestant attitude is that God causes righteous people to prosper financially.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 12:27:29 GMT -5
Are you saying that the F&W see the suffering of "dennisj" as god at work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk everything happens for a reason... What happened to time and chance?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 12:41:26 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. Suffering and punishment is not correction -- it's a technique of programming to cause a person to behave a certain way whether he knows the REAL reason for the behavior or not. For human beings, the problem with punishment is that it is far too often administered to the wrong person, by the wrong person, for the wrong reason, to an unreasonable degree, and primarily for the comfort and convenience of the person doing the punishing. I taught character development at a middle school for juvenile delinquents -- ages 11-14. Entrance requirements: you have to have committed a crime such as beat up a teacher, set fire to the school, carry a gun to school, sell drugs on campus, etc. Without exception they knew nothing about morality or civility because all they had ever experience people reaching their desired goals was force and punishment. The highly successful students are not the ones that have been raised by the rod.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 12:42:11 GMT -5
although witty, i would never wish for that to happen... What about Hitler?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:43:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 12:46:04 GMT -5
although witty, i would never wish for that to happen... What about Hitler? i feel bad that hitler choose the wrong path and is now burning in hell for it...just as i feel bad for murders, thiefs, habitual liers...etc...that go to hell also, in my world its a terrible place to go...
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Post by What Hat on Apr 9, 2014 13:48:56 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. Suffering and punishment is not correction -- it's a technique of programming to cause a person to behave a certain way whether he knows the REAL reason for the behavior or not. For human beings, the problem with punishment is that it is far too often administered to the wrong person, by the wrong person, for the wrong reason, to an unreasonable degree, and primarily for the comfort and convenience of the person doing the punishing. I taught character development at a middle school for juvenile delinquents -- ages 11-14. Entrance requirements: you have to have committed a crime such as beat up a teacher, set fire to the school, carry a gun to school, sell drugs on campus, etc. Without exception they knew nothing about morality or civility because all they had ever experience people reaching their desired goals was force and punishment. The highly successful students are not the ones that have been raised by the rod. This sounds like mainly a reaction to my opening sentence, and although I said "often", "sometimes" might be a better word. Certainly "always" is not what I meant, not that you took it that way. I think the tenor of your comments is in keeping with my general outlook on suffering.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 9, 2014 13:51:26 GMT -5
i feel bad that hitler choose the wrong path and is now burning in hell for it...just as i feel bad for murders, thiefs, habitual liers...etc...that go to hell also, in my world its a terrible place to go... I have had this conversation with others, and to me, an eternity of punishment seems too long, even for Hitler. Some don't agree.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 9, 2014 14:26:05 GMT -5
When I professed I saw God allowing suffering as a tool he used to test people and cause people to cry out to Him. God seemed to have no problem with Noah suffering. It was reported that Mother Teresa in her house for the dying also used suffering as a tool in hopes it would help them cry out to God and be saved. I have changed my mind on suffering. Some suffering is good. For example a kid puts his hand on a hot stove even thought he is told not to. His suffering prevents him from doing that agin, but unnecessary suffering should be prevented when possible. the purest Gold comes from the hottest fire as they say... However, humans are "flesh & blood," not a metal like gold!
That metaphor doesn't work very well.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 9, 2014 14:34:25 GMT -5
Are you saying that the F&W see the suffering of "dennisj" as god at work? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk everything happens for a reason... Of course everything happens for a reason... it is just that the reason doesn't have anything to do with any god!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 16:26:02 GMT -5
I know. They've been struggling to explain that one for millennia.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 16:27:19 GMT -5
i feel bad that hitler choose the wrong path and is now burning in hell for it...just as i feel bad for murders, thiefs, habitual liers...etc...that go to hell also, in my world its a terrible place to go... You must be terribly afraid of going there.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 9, 2014 16:28:31 GMT -5
Suffering and punishment is not correction -- it's a technique of programming to cause a person to behave a certain way whether he knows the REAL reason for the behavior or not. For human beings, the problem with punishment is that it is far too often administered to the wrong person, by the wrong person, for the wrong reason, to an unreasonable degree, and primarily for the comfort and convenience of the person doing the punishing. I taught character development at a middle school for juvenile delinquents -- ages 11-14. Entrance requirements: you have to have committed a crime such as beat up a teacher, set fire to the school, carry a gun to school, sell drugs on campus, etc. Without exception they knew nothing about morality or civility because all they had ever experience people reaching their desired goals was force and punishment. The highly successful students are not the ones that have been raised by the rod. This sounds like mainly a reaction to my opening sentence, and although I said "often", "sometimes" might be a better word. Certainly "always" is not what I meant, not that you took it that way. I think the tenor of your comments is in keeping with my general outlook on suffering. I was agreeing and expounding only.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2014 16:46:46 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. So when you say "that really burns my butt".....you really know what you are talking about!
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Post by What Hat on Apr 9, 2014 17:50:37 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. So when you say "that really burns my butt".....you really know what you are talking about! The concept is lodged deep in the cerebral cortex.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 9, 2014 17:51:42 GMT -5
This sounds like mainly a reaction to my opening sentence, and although I said "often", "sometimes" might be a better word. Certainly "always" is not what I meant, not that you took it that way. I think the tenor of your comments is in keeping with my general outlook on suffering. I was agreeing and expounding only. I thought so, but wasn't completely, totally sure, therefore a little second guessing of what I wrote. No worries here.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 9, 2014 18:02:01 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. What is the old saying? “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” I’m probably about the last person in this world to address this, as I have had a pretty good life. I am 55 years old, never been hospitalized, and have only ever had the occasional cold or flu. On a physical level (at least) I have had far fewer challenges in this life than most people. On a psychological/emotional level, now, that might be less clear. This is something I have been learning: Anything you resist leads to suffering. The minute that you accept “This is the way it is; deal with it”, the "suffering" is gone (though the pain may not be), and all that energy is instantly available to you change things/deal with things (if that is what you want).
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 10, 2014 1:00:37 GMT -5
It seems that children often don't really learn a lesson, like staying away from a hot stove, unless they learn it the hard way. I still remember vividly how I learned to stay away from hot things. When I was 3 or 4 years old in Holland we had no indoor plumbing and so we children would use a porcelain chamberpot. Now Mom, said "don't get too close to the coal stove", but sitting with my pants down, and a cold mostly unheated house, the inevitable happened. This was my first actual experience with something burning my butt, although at a metaphorical level it has happened many times since. The fortunate part is that I suffered no lasting injuries. So that incident has a good upside in that I learned a lasting lesson, but I wouldn't say it was a "good" way to learn. Better to "obey" the dictates of your parents or common sense than learn things the hard way. Thus suffering itself is never good, but it seems to be unavoidable. I don't think I had empathy for the illness and suffering of others, until I had suffered from some medical issues myself. Suffering, in the general sense, does seem to bring out many fine human qualities. But suffering in the specific instance should be avoided. I once heard a gentleman arguing that cancer was a really good thing, because it brought so many back to God. That is a perverse way of thinking. Cancer is terrible, awful, and it is unfortunate that it sometimes takes cancer to change people or families for the better. That is not the route by which we want to get to a better place. Another perversity is that people may be afraid to complain about suffering, because they think it is God's Will and suffering is good. That's silly; you should always want suffering to end. Go ahead and complain, at least to anyone who will listen. Suffering is never good, even though it may have good effects. My own belief is that God does not want anyone to suffer, but sometimes suffering is what it takes. That's to our discredit and not the way God wants things to go. In exactly the same way no good parent wishes their child to burn their butt on a hot coal stove. What is the old saying? “Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.” I’m probably about the last person in this world to address this, as I have had a pretty good life. I am 55 years old, never been hospitalized, and have only ever had the occasional cold or flu. On a physical level (at least) I have had far fewer challenges in this life than most people. On a psychological/emotional level, now, that might be less clear. This is something I have been learning: Anything you resist leads to suffering. The minute that you accept “This is the way it is; deal with it”, the "suffering" is gone (though the pain may not be), and all that energy is instantly available to you change things/deal with things (if that is what you want). Aside from people who are into S&M, you are probably extremely rare in your appreciation of pain that cannot be willed away -- and, I should add, the pain of mental anguish.
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