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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 13:50:20 GMT -5
The sin of atheism is its objective-delusion. The sin of atheism is its delusional-arrogance. From another point of view, there is nothing much more arrogant (or delusional) than the belief that one has been selected from among billions (neighbors, both local and global) and granted special knowledge and blessings by a supreme creator and ruler of the universe.
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 13:56:04 GMT -5
Being against anyone is pointless imo. Should I be against you because you are Christian? I would say no. We don't believe in God. Period. We do believe in love and compassion, caring about others and their welfare, trying to be the very best we can be in this life. We just don't share your belief in God. Rational badgers the theists on TMB by a standard interrogation, "Do you have any proof of a paranormal being?" First of all Rational hasn't any proof of his own existence. He changes during his life. He has no evidence he'll ever exist again. He no more exists than God does by his own criteria. All the while he irrationally persists in demanding proof of God from theists. If you look at the record, I think you will find that Rational doesn't play favorites among theists and non-theists. Make an extraordinary claim, and you may be asked to supply supporting evidence. State your beliefs as just that....your beliefs, and you will likely be left alone.
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Post by faune on Mar 23, 2014 14:30:46 GMT -5
The sin of atheism is its objective-delusion. The sin of atheism is its delusional-arrogance. Lee ~ Please give some examples of what you mean above or explain why you feel this way? I don't exactly get the drift of your statements?
Also, I feel what Matisse shared below is a logical response to your post, considering the exclusivity of Christianity. I was reminded of the same illustration myself. It does come across as pretty arrogant in relation to Christian beliefs, IMO.
In addition, I believe Snow answered your question quite well in an earlier posting regarding "what atheists do believe in."
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 14:48:05 GMT -5
... I believe Snow answered your question quite well in an earlier posting regarding what "atheists do believe in." Faune, do you mean s ome atheists believe this? If I remember correctly, the context of Snow's comment was the TMB and various atheists who post here who are a target of Lee's insults. I don't think she was making a sweeping claim about all atheists. (Snow, please correct me if I am wrong!) The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God. I think snow has clearly agreed with this elsewhere, which is one reason why I think you are taking her words out of context here. I think the other attributes that snow mentions may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly, though I think it is good to let others speak for themselves when it comes to beliefs.
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Post by faune on Mar 23, 2014 16:30:11 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Lee had inquired earlier concerning what atheists DO BELIEVE? I highlighted in Blue regarding her response to that specific question and also shared her general statement concerning what would relate to all atheists ~ namely, "not sharing your belief in God."
However, I'm glad that you agree with me that " the OTHER ATTRIBUTES to atheists may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly." I believe that to be true as well.
I don't believe I "change anything" regarding what Snow wished to convey by her earlier post relating to TMB participants who might be atheists? However, she can correct me if I'm wrong, especially if I "distorted" anything she said in her post? Since she indicated she "liked" my earlier post along these lines, I doubt we have a problem here, but I'm open to her correction if I'm wrong?
Incidently, I didn't think she was making any sweeping claim about all atheists sharing her perspective about what she believed herself. However, like you, I think it could refer to others on TMB who are considered atheists. So, exactly what do you feel I'm taking out of context here, if I agree with the contents of Snow's entire post earlier, which I posted verbatim? I agree completely with your own words, too. ~ "The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God." By quoting Snow's exact words, I was allowing her to speak for herself. I was only agreeing with her. Pure and simple!
Matisse shared...
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Post by snow on Mar 23, 2014 18:16:12 GMT -5
... I believe Snow answered your question quite well in an earlier posting regarding what "atheists do believe in." Faune, do you mean s ome atheists believe this? If I remember correctly, the context of Snow's comment was the TMB and various atheists who post here who are a target of Lee's insults. I don't think she was making a sweeping claim about all atheists. (Snow, please correct me if I am wrong!) The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God. I think snow has clearly agreed with this elsewhere, which is one reason why I think you are taking her words out of context here. I think the other attributes that snow mentions may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly, though I think it is good to let others speak for themselves when it comes to beliefs. Matisse, yes I don't believe it applies to all atheists. The only thing I know of that applies to all atheists is they don't believe in any god period. I was trying to make the point though that even if I didn't believe there was a God, I still had other beliefs that would be quite similar to theists, those being love, compassion etc.
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 18:33:21 GMT -5
Faune, do you mean s ome atheists believe this? If I remember correctly, the context of Snow's comment was the TMB and various atheists who post here who are a target of Lee's insults. I don't think she was making a sweeping claim about all atheists. (Snow, please correct me if I am wrong!) The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God. I think snow has clearly agreed with this elsewhere, which is one reason why I think you are taking her words out of context here. I think the other attributes that snow mentions may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly, though I think it is good to let others speak for themselves when it comes to beliefs. Matisse, yes I don't believe it applies to all atheists. The only thing I know of that applies to all atheists is they don't believe in any god period. I was trying to make the point though that even if I didn't believe there was a God, I still had other beliefs that would be quite similar to theists, those being love, compassion etc. That's how I read it as you posted it, Snow!
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 18:54:28 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Lee had inquired earlier concerning what atheists DO BELIEVE? I highlighted in Blue regarding her response to that specific question and also shared her general statement concerning what would relate to all atheists ~ namely, "not sharing your belief in God."
However, I'm glad that you agree with me that " the OTHER ATTRIBUTES to atheists may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly." I believe that to be true as well.
I don't believe I "change anything" regarding what Snow wished to convey by her earlier post relating to TMB participants who might be atheists? ??? However, she can correct me if I'm wrong, especially if I "distorted" anything she said in her post? Since she indicated she "liked" my earlier post along these lines, I doubt we have a problem here, but I'm open to her correction if I'm wrong?
Incidently, I didn't think she was making any sweeping claim about all atheists sharing her perspective about what she believed herself. However, like you, I think it could refer to others on TMB who are considered atheists. So, exactly what do you feel I'm taking out of context here, if I agree with the contents of Snow's entire post earlier, which I posted verbatim? ??? I agree completely with your own words, too. ~ "The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God." By quoting Snow's exact words, I was allowing her to speak for herself. I was only agreeing with her. Pure and simple!
Matisse shared...
Lee never asked what atheists believe in (He objected to what atheists DON'T believe in, which I took to mean "God") and so snow wasn't responding to a direct question about what atheists believe in. I think this is where your post that I objected to runs into trouble. You come along and add this false idea of the direct question from Lee about what atheists believe and change the context of Snow's response. So even if you cut and paste Snow's words, you have mangled the setting of those words.
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Post by faune on Mar 23, 2014 19:12:29 GMT -5
Snow ~ I think I get the point that Matisse was making now, and I want to put it in simpler terms. In your statement you used the word "we" regarding Lee's criticism of atheists posting on TMB. In response, I agreed with both statements you made in this earlier post, based upon what I have witnessed personally among the different participants here on TMB who would be considered atheists. I did not take it to mean anybody outside this Board, which wouldn't pertain regarding all atheists ~ especially concerning what you do believe in and try to manifest in your personal life and relationships. That's why I questioned the reason why Matisse thought I had misconstrued your meaning and distorted it in some way?
It just sounded like a simple misunderstanding of my interpretation of your words and I wanted to set the record straight in answering Matisse's question? However, it was the use of the word, "we" instead of "I" within your answer to Lee that seemed to be what was causing the discrepancy here?
I took it to mean yourself and other atheists/agnostics here on TMB ~ but NOT to imply all atheists in general regarding what you DO believe. In sharing what you do believe, you shared: "We do believe in love and compassion, caring about others and their welfare, trying to be the very best we can be in this life."
The only statement that would pertain to all atheist's would be your last words, "We just don't share your belief in God."
Therefore, I didn't think I was taking your words out of context by the interpretation I applied to them due to the use of the word "we" in your posting. Hopefully, this clears up my own rationale regarding how I interpreted your post?
Snow shared...
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 19:41:58 GMT -5
Snow ~ I think I get the point that Matisse was making now... Based on what follows the ... in the above quote, I don't think you understood my point at all, Faune. -- I wish you would consider using the "Like" function when you agree with what someone has said and leave it at that, instead of attempting to re-package and re-state what that person has said. You almost always twist things up in some way when you do this. Over the past week, and on a few different threads, this has happened over and over again, and more than one person has called your attention to it. The easy way to avoid inadvertently misrepresenting someone else's words, Faune, is to speak only for yourself, and let others speak for themselves!
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Post by faune on Mar 23, 2014 20:26:22 GMT -5
So, this is your comeback over something I apologized for on another thread? I admitted to "bloopers" I had made in my thread entitled, "Theists, Diests, Atheists, Agnostics?" I don't claim to be perfect and I do make mistakes ~ a lot of them on this Board. I use the "Like" function a lot for posts I agree with on TMB and often without comment.
However, when I see the word "we" used in a statement, I take it to mean more than one person included in the discussion. If not, perhaps just using the word "I" would better serve the purpose in expressing a personal opinion regarding beliefs? I just took Snow's response to Lee earlier to "include all the members on TMB who are atheists" due to the use of the pronoun "we" in her statement. So, what's my big crime in that?
However, I plan on taking your good advice in the future to avoid "misrepresenting" anybody on TMB, especially those who share atheists beliefs. I have no interest in making "waves" on this Board with anybody, including yourself.
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 20:44:39 GMT -5
So, this is your comeback over something I apologized for on another thread? I admitted to "bloopers" I had made in my thread entitled, "Theists, Diests, Atheists, Agnostics?" I don't claim to be perfect and I do make mistakes ~ a lot of them on this Board. I use the "Like" function a lot for posts I agree with on TMB and often without comment.
However, when I see the word "we" used in a statement, I take it to mean more than one person included in the discussion. If not, perhaps just using the word "I" would better serve the purpose in expressing a personal opinion regarding beliefs? I just took Snow's earlier statement to "include all the members on TMB who are atheists" due to the use of the pronoun "we" in her statement. So, what's my big crime in that? O_o
Being against anyone is pointless imo. Should I be against you because you are Christian? I would say no. We don't believe in God. Period. We do believe in love and compassion, caring about others and their welfare, trying to be the very best we can be in this life. We just don't share your belief in God. However, I plan on taking your good advice in the future to avoid "misrepresenting" anybody in the future, especially those who share atheists beliefs. I have no interest in making "waves" on this Board with anybody, including yourself.
I think I have explained clearly what I perceive to be the problem. I'm not going to try to explain it again. My parting advice: When you post, Faune, speak only for yourself. If you have nothing new to add to a thread, leave it alone, or "Like" what other people have already said.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 20:52:31 GMT -5
this is america still right?
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Post by matisse on Mar 23, 2014 20:58:48 GMT -5
this is america still right? It's TMB. People from lots of different places around the world post here, not just people from the United States (is this what you mean by "america"?)
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Post by rational on Mar 23, 2014 22:44:37 GMT -5
Paranormal being? And what's so normal about human beings if they change during their lifetimes and desist at death? Change and evolution is normal. Death is normal. Paranormal would be a being that did not change and did not die. If the shoe fits leave no stone unturned because a rolling stone gathers no moss. (I just felt like mixing metaphors!)
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Post by rational on Mar 23, 2014 22:45:41 GMT -5
The sin of atheism is its objective-delusion. The sin of atheism is its delusional-arrogance. You do realize that sin is not something that atheists experience.
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Post by rational on Mar 23, 2014 22:47:31 GMT -5
you could substitute error for sin You could but, you could also substitute correctness.
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Post by rational on Mar 23, 2014 22:54:20 GMT -5
this is america still right? To what does 'this' refer to?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 0:04:30 GMT -5
you know freedom of speech and all...
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Post by faune on Mar 24, 2014 0:29:34 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Lee had inquired earlier concerning what atheists DO BELIEVE? I highlighted in Blue regarding her response to that specific question and also shared her general statement concerning what would relate to all atheists ~ namely, "not sharing your belief in God."
However, I'm glad that you agree with me that " the OTHER ATTRIBUTES to atheists may be appropriate for the atheists who post here regularly." I believe that to be true as well.
I don't believe I "change anything" regarding what Snow wished to convey by her earlier post relating to TMB participants who might be atheists? However, she can correct me if I'm wrong, especially if I "distorted" anything she said in her post? Since she indicated she "liked" my earlier post along these lines, I doubt we have a problem here, but I'm open to her correction if I'm wrong?
Incidently, I didn't think she was making any sweeping claim about all atheists sharing her perspective about what she believed herself. However, like you, I think it could refer to others on TMB who are considered atheists. So, exactly what do you feel I'm taking out of context here, if I agree with the contents of Snow's entire post earlier, which I posted verbatim? I agree completely with your own words, too. ~ "The only belief that one can attribute to all atheists is that atheists do not believe in God." By quoting Snow's exact words, I was allowing her to speak for herself. I was only agreeing with her. Pure and simple!
Matisse shared...
Lee never asked what atheists believe in (He objected to what atheists DON'T believe in, which I took to mean "God") and so snow wasn't responding to a direct question about what atheists believe in. I think this is where your post that I objected to runs into trouble. You come along and add this false idea of the direct question from Lee about what atheists believe and change the context of Snow's response. So even if you cut and paste Snow's words, you have mangled the setting of those words. Mattisse ~ I agree. I just re-checked this thread and learned that it was Walker who asked that question about what atheist believed in when he responded to my post about Abraham Lincoln being considered an atheist by many of his peers, because of his comments regarding Christianity. Since Snow used the pronoun "we" instead of "I" throughout her sentence in reply to Lee's remark concerning atheists, I took it as including herself and the rest of the atheists on TMB.
Since neither Walker nor Lee called me on the mix-up of their names or quotes, I guess they decided to let it slide as part of normal occurrences in pro-board discussions? They were both gentlemen in their kindness towards me and my bloopers on this thread.
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Post by matisse on Mar 24, 2014 3:59:14 GMT -5
Faune, you are careless with other people's words. You "apologize" when someone calls you on it just before you turn around and are careless again....and again.
I wouldn't care nearly as much if your 'bloopers' were with your own words or made while describing your own experiences.
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Post by faune on Mar 24, 2014 8:30:07 GMT -5
Faune, you are careless with other people's words. You "apologize" when someone calls you on it just before you turn around and are careless again....and again. I wouldn't care nearly as much if your 'bloopers' were with your own words or made while describing your own experiences. Matisse ~ Point taken. Perhaps now we can end this "badgering" over my screw-ups on this Board? It truly amazes me that the people whose quotes I did accidently transpose in this thread, Lee and Walker, didn't feel the same need to call me out for it to the extent that you did? If it caused any misunderstanding with Snow's post regarding atheists' beliefs as a result, I also apologize to her for my error.
Perhaps now we can return to the original subject of this thread, relating to Herman Beaber, as Walker suggested earlier?
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Post by matisse on Mar 24, 2014 9:00:42 GMT -5
The point extends well beyond this thread and well beyond Walker's and Lee's posts. If you don't understand this, than you likely have not gotten the point. I guess we will see.
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Post by rational on Mar 24, 2014 12:56:05 GMT -5
you know freedom of speech and all... I guess I don't know and making the substitution of the noun you provided for the pronoun doesn't help: freedom of speech and all is america still right?Bottom line - most countries have the legal right to the freedom of speech although in practice some places are not all that free in their freedom!
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Post by snow on Mar 24, 2014 17:52:30 GMT -5
I was probably the one at fault here. I shouldn't have used the word 'we' when talking about anything other than atheists not believing in God. I should have only referred to myself for the rest of it. I apologize.
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Post by matisse on Mar 24, 2014 18:29:42 GMT -5
I was probably the one at fault here. I shouldn't have used the word 'we' when talking about anything other than atheists not believing in God. I should have only referred to myself for the rest of it. I apologize. In the context of your post, Snow, I understood that you were speaking about some atheists, not all. Put in a different setting, it wasn't as clear. The message I have been trying to articulate to faune might have been delivered on another thread and not linked to anything you have posted. So I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear.
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Post by Lee on Mar 24, 2014 20:07:21 GMT -5
The sin of atheism is its objective-delusion. The sin of atheism is its delusional-arrogance. How can atheism be a sin if there is no God? How can licentiousness be licensed if there's no God? How did it happen that we were endowed with moral-freewill?
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Post by Lee on Mar 24, 2014 20:10:06 GMT -5
The sin of atheism is its objective-delusion. The sin of atheism is its delusional-arrogance. From another point of view, there is nothing much more arrogant (or delusional) than the belief that one has been selected from among billions (neighbors, both local and global) and granted special knowledge and blessings by a supreme creator and ruler of the universe. Atheism is not a point of view but the absence of one.
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