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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 12:05:34 GMT -5
I suppose they see God as the author of all good things that happen to them and Satan as the author of all the bad things while God allows it to happen for some later higher purpose that will work out for the better in the end. It's perfectly logical. People find comfort in it in good times and bad. I guess so, but what I don't understand is how anyone can find it comforting? All you have to do is look at the illogical aspect of it and then all comfort would fly out the window. For me anyway. It makes no logical sense to me at all. God is either sovereign of he's not. If he is then he did the bad things too, or allowed the bad things to happen at the very least. What does that say about God? He is not a very good or comforting entity in that case. Is the random happenings of life so hard to live with that they have to grasp at comfort from a source that suspends all logic? The idea is that God is sovereign but "allows" bad things to happen to people for (good) reasons often unknown to the recipient until some time in the future. Personally, I see the logic and the comfort although I don't embrace the concept myself. People in distress need to know why and this gives them reasons. Most people aren't comfortable accepting that there is randomness and not knowing. God has always been believed in to provide reasons for the unknown.....that's really the whole idea behind faith in the first place......to provide a structure and answers for the unknown.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2014 15:00:38 GMT -5
I guess so, but what I don't understand is how anyone can find it comforting? All you have to do is look at the illogical aspect of it and then all comfort would fly out the window. For me anyway. It makes no logical sense to me at all. God is either sovereign of he's not. If he is then he did the bad things too, or allowed the bad things to happen at the very least. What does that say about God? He is not a very good or comforting entity in that case. Is the random happenings of life so hard to live with that they have to grasp at comfort from a source that suspends all logic? The idea is that God is sovereign but "allows" bad things to happen to people for (good) reasons often unknown to the recipient until some time in the future. Personally, I see the logic and the comfort although I don't embrace the concept myself. People in distress need to know why and this gives them reasons. Most people aren't comfortable accepting that there is randomness and not knowing. God has always been believed in to provide reasons for the unknown.....that's really the whole idea behind faith in the first place......to provide a structure and answers for the unknown. I do understand that people do it to answer the unknown and give themselves comfort. What I find is that none of the answers or the absence of knowing if there is such an entity takes away from any comfort there might be for me. You really need to ignore several things in order to draw comfort from thinking God has it all figured out.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 16:20:11 GMT -5
The idea is that God is sovereign but "allows" bad things to happen to people for (good) reasons often unknown to the recipient until some time in the future. Personally, I see the logic and the comfort although I don't embrace the concept myself. People in distress need to know why and this gives them reasons. Most people aren't comfortable accepting that there is randomness and not knowing. God has always been believed in to provide reasons for the unknown.....that's really the whole idea behind faith in the first place......to provide a structure and answers for the unknown. I do understand that people do it to answer the unknown and give themselves comfort. What I find is that none of the answers or the absence of knowing if there is such an entity takes away from any comfort there might be for me. You really need to ignore several things in order to draw comfort from thinking God has it all figured out. No doubt. You have to have faith for it to work for you.
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Post by Lee on Apr 7, 2014 20:20:40 GMT -5
Exactly. Design follows intelligence. Design also follows necessity. What instantiates creation's necessity?
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Post by Lee on Apr 7, 2014 20:27:36 GMT -5
Normal would be demonstrable and testable. In your world you believe there is an invisible being that you talk to and who you believe has created the universe. When you can produce any evidence of this entity that can tested you can talk about making a correction. Until then, it is simply your belief, not supported by logical or material proof, and you are more than welcome to it. Normal to you would be directly demonstrable and testable. Normal to me would be also be indirectly demonstrable and testable. May I suggest you are given to greater tyranny? The TMB is not an inquiry about the existence of God but his nature. Why do you participate here if its not to interfere?
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2014 20:42:03 GMT -5
Design also follows necessity. What instantiates creation's necessity? The universe is not a necessity nor was it designed. One theory is that it was simply a random event. Looking around that certainly cannot be disproved.
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2014 22:13:02 GMT -5
Normal would be demonstrable and testable. In your world you believe there is an invisible being that you talk to and who you believe has created the universe. When you can produce any evidence of this entity that can tested you can talk about making a correction. Until then, it is simply your belief, not supported by logical or material proof, and you are more than welcome to it. Normal to you would be directly demonstrable and testable. Normal to me would be also be indirectly demonstrable and testable. Sure - let's go with indirectly demonstrable. And then explain the indirect test that will verify your claim. You may suggest anything you wish but you will have to specify which definition of tyranny you wish to have applied. I was not aware you were the person who dictates what is and is not discussed.Any action interferes. I think what you are looking for is interaction that agrees with your beliefs and raises no questions. I can almost picture a group of people in a circle all congratulating the person next to them for their comments to the previous comment.
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Post by Lee on Apr 8, 2014 22:46:58 GMT -5
What instantiates creation's necessity? The universe is not a necessity nor was it designed. Just like God it just is. I can go with that.
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Post by rational on Apr 9, 2014 7:31:00 GMT -5
The universe is not a necessity nor was it designed. Just like God it just is. I can go with that. Great!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 22:54:59 GMT -5
He'd had it with the sh-heads on here who don't believe in God. I mean if you don't believe in God and you ain't gonna be resurrected, what the hell good are ya? Blimey whatever happened to love your neighbour? On here we are all neighbours. Your going to throw rocks over the fence they will come back at you with interest. If you have bad neighbours you have to move not start a war with them. I know we had bloody Lebbos next door. I not sure what I am now atheist or Christian just very confused with the meetings screwing with my head. I just know it is going to years to get past the BS brainwashing and find what I can really believe in for myself.
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Post by Lee on Apr 10, 2014 23:06:24 GMT -5
He'd had it with the sh-heads on here who don't believe in God. I mean if you don't believe in God and you ain't gonna be resurrected, what the hell good are ya? Blimey whatever happened to love your neighbour? On here we are all neighbours. Your going to throw rocks over the fence they will come back at you with interest. If you have bad neighbours you have to move not start a war with them. I know we had bloody Lebbos next door. I not sure what I am now atheist or Christian just very confused with the meetings screwing with my head. I just know it is going to years to get past the BS brainwashing and find what I can really believe in for myself. Unbelief in God or unbelief in a resurrection of the human soul or psyche is a depressant. That's why I pick on atheists. They're not contributing to the comfort or betterment of the human condition and certainly they're not addressing the theological minefield of the 2x2 and other environs. How can they do that when the soul is but an apparition of transient, physical fluctuations (to them)? Atheists have no business on the TMB except where God may want someone to mess with the person making a god in their own image. There may be a lot of those but an atheist can only bring God's wrath and not his salvation.
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2014 14:46:31 GMT -5
Unbelief in God or unbelief in a resurrection of the human soul or psyche is a depressant. I can understand, from your point of view, why you cling to this belief. Your whole life is focused on getting the prize that arrives right after you die. You are like the person who goes to work everyday, hating their job, but sticking with it because they will be vested and, at some point, get their retirement. Take away the promise of life after death and your life looses its goal. Looses its focus.I have had so many people who were working at a job they did not like tell me that they had the retirement all planned out and I had nothing.You mean like the christians and other theists have in the past?Oh, I think the atheists do address the situation. Stop believing that some people have magical powers and address the problematic situations as adults dealing with adults.Actually, it is not even that. It is in the same class of entities as god, satan, and the rest of the paranormal that people believe in.It has to do with the enjoyment of life. It is so interesting to see the various gods that, as you say, people have created in their own image.Not seeing the wrath of god. Almost seems like things happen in a random fashion to both theists and atheists and then the theists pick the events that support their beliefs. And then gather with people of similar beliefs and reinforce each other's beliefs.
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Post by Lee on Apr 11, 2014 21:34:49 GMT -5
Like Dubious Disciple I tend to believe Christ has already returned and the greatest pleasure can be found in exhibiting Christ today.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 9:22:30 GMT -5
Like Dubious Disciple I tend to believe Christ has already returned and the greatest pleasure can be found in exhibiting Christ today. Well that's a noble goal but how does hating atheists achieve that goal?
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Post by Lee on Apr 12, 2014 22:02:48 GMT -5
It maintains the contrast between theists and atheists.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 22:53:02 GMT -5
It maintains the contrast between theists and atheists. And you feel that is important? Or a good way try to look superior? Bringing down someone to appear higher doesn't usually work to well you know.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 9:12:00 GMT -5
It maintains the contrast between theists and atheists. And when the belief in god or not is the only difference it is important to the theists to make sure that one point is magnified as much as possible. Otherwise, there is no difference between the groups. Besides, it seems that built into the christian religion is the need to have others to look down on and to condemn to eternal damnation. If everyone suddenly became a christian, christianity would fall apart. Christianity needs to pretend to have the high ground and if everyone is the same there is no high ground.
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Post by Lee on Apr 13, 2014 11:00:39 GMT -5
Rational and Snow:
The question raised by atheists and theists is a question about existence, are we in connection with or an extension of something, or nothing at all. Ultimately, the question is whether we are anything at all.
However legitimate your observations of Christians are, in your cases your spins are a projection of your own abandon.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2014 12:54:23 GMT -5
Rational and Snow: The question raised by atheists and theists is a question about existence, are we in connection with or an extension of something, or nothing at all. Ultimately, the question is whether we are anything at all. Oh, we are something. Just like the frogs and zebras. I think not. If the observations are legitimate they are only a reflection of reality, not a projection. However, for some of us, there is no need for spin. We live and then we die. Pretty simple.
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Post by Lee on Apr 14, 2014 19:41:05 GMT -5
Rational and Snow: The question raised by atheists and theists is a question about existence, are we in connection with or an extension of something, or nothing at all. Ultimately, the question is whether we are anything at all. Oh, we are something. Just like the frogs and zebras. Explain. However legitimate your observations of Christians are, in your cases your spins are a projection of your own abandon. I think not. If the observations are legitimate they are only a reflection of reality, not a projection. Your certitude there is no God gives you away. By your own criteria no one can prove there is or is not a God. Your certitude resembles the delusions of demoniacs. However, for some of us, there is no need for spin. We live and then we die. Pretty simple. Atheists regard life as a temporal phenomenon. Theists regard death as a temporal phenomenon. All humans wrestle with atheism in every decision. Take your death culture and shove it. A hundred years ago you would have been properly institutionalized.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2014 20:18:21 GMT -5
Oh, we are something. Just like the frogs and zebras. Explain. You asked if humans were anything at all and I responded they were, just as frogs and zebras are something. To date, my certitude is based on the fact that those who believe that a paranormal being exists have been unable to produce any evidence to support their claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The death culture belongs to the theists. They live for death and the hereafter. They see death as a means of passage. They sing about death. Christians make statutes of a dead man hanging on a cross. Christianity is based on human sacrifice. So talk to me about where the death culture exists. 1914? I doubt it. But a thousand years ago the theists were burning witches. Something that probably makes you proud to be a theist.
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Post by Lee on Apr 15, 2014 21:09:38 GMT -5
You asked if humans were anything at all and I responded they were, just as frogs and zebras are something. What are frogs and zebras if they proceed from nothing and go to nothing? Your certitude there is no God gives you away. By your own criteria no one can prove there is or is not a God. Your certitude resembles the delusions of demoniacs. To date, my certitude is based on the fact that those who believe that a paranormal being exists have been unable to produce any evidence to support their claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. You have it, we exist. Atheists regard life as a temporal phenomenon. Theists regard death as a temporal phenomenon. All humans wrestle with atheism in every decision. Take your death culture and shove it. The death culture belongs to the theists. They live for death and the hereafter. They see death as a means of passage. They sing about death. Christians make statutes of a dead man hanging on a cross. Christianity is based on human sacrifice. So talk to me about where the death culture exists. So you've noticed human beings are concerned with mortality more than other animals. Why is that? What does it say about humans as well as existence? A hundred years ago you would have been properly institutionalized. 1914? I doubt it. But a thousand years ago the theists were burning witches. Something that probably makes you proud to be a theist. What makes you different from those we dispose and incarcerate?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 0:05:05 GMT -5
It maintains the contrast between theists and atheists. i totally agree here. Not worried by atheists. Mum and Dad were atheist grew up with it my bro and sister are. That is why it caused such havoc when I came to meetings. I was kicked out at 15 yo and didn't see my parents for 6 years. It was hard at the time but now I think it gave me space to try and find what I wanted to believe in - just a pity it was a lie though I don't think God is a lie.It gives you a contrast and even though people are red hot disbelievers they can change their minds and still wonder if there is something. Bring rude to them doesn't seem kind or Christian. Coming out of the meetings leaves people in need of a place to reach out no matter where their head space is. Even If people are angry and diss allusioned and cynical I envy people who can trust enough to jump straight into something else. It absolutely terrifies me. We were misjudging ourselves and others in the meetings I don't want to be judging people trying to find their feet on the forum here.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2014 10:33:54 GMT -5
You asked if humans were anything at all and I responded they were, just as frogs and zebras are something. What are frogs and zebras if they proceed from nothing and go to nothing? They are something, which was the question you asked. Specifically, they have the property we call life. Just as you do. As do the frogs and the zebras. I knew you could get it! I don't know if this is the case. It could be that humans just have better communication skills.For some it is because they have built up a culture of death where the main goal of life is to life for a promised reward following death. It is like telling a toddler that they can have something they desire, ice cream, perhaps, after their nap. At that point they become very focused on their nap because they know once that event happens they will get what they have been promised.From my point of view it says they have comforted themselves into believing that there is some reward waiting for them following death. They see this life as a holding station to be endured, always with good works/faith/worship/etc., so that they can meet the qualifications that they believe are needed to pass on to the promise land after death.Nothing. There will always be those, assuming when you said 'we' you were including yourself with the theists, who think they are somehow better and, when/if they have the ability will strike out against others who do not hold the same beliefs as they do. It certainly is not unique to christianity but does seem to be prevalent among those who believe in entities/ideas/etc. that cannot be demonstrated to exist. Burn/incarcerate/marginalize - when you believe your beliefs are the only right beliefs and when you believe that some omnipotent omniscient paranormal being is on your side you feel you can turn on and act with impunity against the non-believers. And if it doesn't work out call them martyrs and promise them eternal riches!
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Post by Lee on Apr 16, 2014 23:43:32 GMT -5
What are frogs and zebras if they proceed from nothing and go to nothing? They are something, which was the question you asked. Specifically, they have the property we call life. Just as you do. They are phenomenon to be sure. What's a phenomenon? So you've noticed human beings are concerned with mortality more than other animals. I don't know if this is the case. It could be that humans just have better communication skills. Why do they have better communication skills? For some it is because they have built up a culture of death where the main goal of life is to life for a promised reward following death. It is like telling a toddler that they can have something they desire, ice cream, perhaps, after their nap. At that point they become very focused on their nap because they know once that event happens they will get what they have been promised. The Christian doctrine of election contradicts the meritocracy and eschatology of Darwinism. What does it say about humans as well as existence? From my point of view it says they have comforted themselves into believing that there is some reward waiting for them following death. They see this life as a holding station to be endured, always with good works/faith/worship/etc., so that they can meet the qualifications that they believe are needed to pass on to the promise land after death. The Christian doctrine of election contradicts the meritocracy and eschatology of Darwinism. What makes you different from those we dispose and incarcerate? Nothing. There will always be those, assuming when you said 'we' you were including yourself with the theists, who think they are somehow better and, when/if they have the ability will strike out against others who do not hold the same beliefs as they do. It certainly is not unique to christianity but does seem to be prevalent among those who believe in entities/ideas/etc. that cannot be demonstrated to exist. Burn/incarcerate/marginalize - when you believe your beliefs are the only right beliefs and when you believe that some omnipotent omniscient paranormal being is on your side you feel you can turn on and act with impunity against the non-believers. And if it doesn't work out call them martyrs and promise them eternal riches! So because there are theists, there is sin. That explains a lot!
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Post by rational on Apr 17, 2014 0:31:05 GMT -5
They are something, which was the question you asked. Specifically, they have the property we call life. Just as you do. They are phenomenon to be sure. What's a phenomenon? I will let you answer your own sophomoric questions.At some point the christian doctrine will catch up.It does. Sin is a transgression against the will of god. Eliminate god and sin is gone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 0:34:47 GMT -5
I can NEVER became a atheist.It would be ignorant of me not to believe in God because I cannot understand everything.The brain is one of the multitude of things that make it impossible for it just to have simply fallen or have been banged in to place. We have all received a brain that can REASON so therefore there will be NO excuse when we take our last breath in to our amazing lungs.But I feel with my limited understanding that creation would have been much better of WITHOUT MAN.
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Post by Lee on Apr 17, 2014 6:12:50 GMT -5
They are phenomenon to be sure. What's a phenomenon? I will let you answer your own sophomoric questions. This is a question for you to own. You are the one who will not consider whether anything might be fundamental to our private conceptions of existence. You are the one who disputes whether anything might be fundamental to existence. The Christian doctrine of election contradicts the meritocracy and eschatology of Darwinism. At some point the christian doctrine will catch up. Hitler pushed it along best he could and got spanked. Who spanked him? Why was he spanked? So because there are theists, there is sin. That explains a lot! It does. Sin is a transgression against the will of god. Eliminate god and sin is gone. You're an anti-theist as well as an unbeliever.
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