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Post by Lee on Mar 29, 2014 0:07:26 GMT -5
Society can only confer rights; they do not originate with them. In the movie "God's not dead" the professor jeered at Josh when he told him his major was pre-law. Society provides you with a license to drive a car. I am pretty sure society is granting that right. Actually I can drive a car without a state-issued license. What endows me with that right? I have not seen the movie. Was the professor a theist who didn't like the law? He was an atheist. Pre-law is the theory of law. The professor thought theists were incapable of contributing to the matter.
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Post by Lee on Mar 29, 2014 0:17:03 GMT -5
Truth is never pursued apart from beliefs such as the truth of truth, the right of right, the beauty of beauty ... all of our interpretations are founded upon prior beliefs. This is incorrect. While all have prior beliefs, the wise ones modify their beliefs when the data does no longer supports their original beliefs. No one disregards their fundamental beliefs except in the case of salvation, whereupon one realizes their wisdom was too local or temporal for their well-being.
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2014 0:26:49 GMT -5
Society provides you with a license to drive a car. I am pretty sure society is granting that right. Actually I can drive a car without a state-issued license. What endows me with that right? You are talking about the ability. Your question was about the right. I have not seen the movie. Was the professor a theist who didn't like the law? He was an atheist. Pre-law is the theory of law. The professor thought theists were incapable of contributing to the matter. [/quote]Pre-law is a pretty big field. Do you remember the specific course?
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2014 0:33:04 GMT -5
No one disregards their fundamental beliefs except in the case of salvation, whereupon one realizes their wisdom was too local and temporal for their well-being. It does sound very much like you cling to your fundamental beliefs but it is certainly not universal. Fundamental beliefs change depending on logical or material proof. Those beliefs without either are, by some, discarded. It is apparent you cling to yours.
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Post by Lee on Mar 29, 2014 0:35:31 GMT -5
They only seem to. The atheist's concept of existence is temporal and individual. Existence carries no meaning if it can not relate to something eternal and 'other', to something fixed and objective. No, your existence has no meaning for you without your belief in your paranormal being. Your paranormal condition could not be described if we could not grasp the idea of a permanent or normal condition. It is true that the atheist's existence is temporal but that does not mean that existence does not have meaning. If you are looking for a positive in test results and they occur inconsistently or rarely, is not the postulate placed into jeapordy? If an individual or the entire family of mankind is here today and gone tomorrow, doesn't the probability or certainty of its existence become correspondingly disputable?
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Post by Lee on Mar 29, 2014 0:36:31 GMT -5
Actually I can drive a car without a state-issued license. What endows me with that right? You are talking about the ability. Your question was about the right. So according to you our rights originate with our governments. I see. He was an atheist. Pre-law is the theory of law. The professor thought theists were incapable of contributing to the matter. Pre-law is a pretty big field. Do you remember the specific course? Philosophy
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2014 12:13:16 GMT -5
No, your existence has no meaning for you without your belief in your paranormal being. Your paranormal condition could not be described if we could not grasp the idea of a permanent or normal condition. You are correct. We look to the normal as compared to the paranormal. It is true that the atheist's existence is temporal but that does not mean that existence does not have meaning. If you are looking for a positive in test results and they occur inconsistently or rarely, is not the postulate placed into jeapordy?[/quote]That is the problem with attempting to evaluate things like the power of prayer. The results are exactly the same as random events so there is little correlation to be seen.No, the facts do not change, man was here and is no longer here, but the question then is who would know or care! In the case of the dodo bird, it was here and is now gone and, except for the recorded images and accounts, who would ever know?
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Post by Lee on Mar 29, 2014 22:48:58 GMT -5
Your paranormal condition could not be described if we could not grasp the idea of a permanent or normal condition. You are correct. We look to the normal as compared to the paranormal. Both exist. It's progress when we can tell the one from the other. If you are looking for a positive in test results and they occur inconsistently or rarely, is not the postulate placed into jeapordy? That is the problem with attempting to evaluate things like the power of prayer. The results are exactly the same as random events so there is little correlation to be seen. There's different types of prayer. I've known prayer that spans the conventional to the miraculous. The common chord is their confession of the Creator. But this is a digression from my point. If mankind's existence is tentative and undefined, how can he be properly said to exist at all? If an individual or the entire family of mankind is here today and gone tomorrow, doesn't the probability or certainty of its existence become correspondingly disputable? No, the facts do not change, man was hear and is no longer here, but the question then is who would know or care! In the case of the dodo bird, it was here and is now gone and, except for the recorded images and accounts, who would ever know? If mankind we're a fluke, he could have no more meaning than a fluke. You don't appreciate your depth of abandon.
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2014 12:48:20 GMT -5
If mankind's existence is tentative and undefined, how can he be properly said to exist at all? I guess because it does exist. Weather a person's life has meaning has nothing to do with their beliefs. Nor does its length. Consider the isotope nitrogen-10 with a half-life of 200 10 24 seconds. Short does not mean non-existence. No, the facts do not change, man was hear and is no longer here, but the question then is who would know or care! In the case of the dodo bird, it was here and is now gone and, except for the recorded images and accounts, who would ever know? If mankind we're a fluke, he could have no more meaning than a fluke. You don't appreciate your depth of abandon.[/quote]And that, in the sum of things is probably correct. Any one of the more than 20,000 species of trematodes have as much meaning as mankind. Flukes have been around in North America for more than 5 million years, far longer than humans. And they will probably be here long after all of mankind have shuffled off their collective mortal coils. Ahh - in re-reading I see that you probably meant were and not we're! I was thinking "we are" and making the jump to being flukes! It can be parsed in a whole different way!
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Post by Lee on Mar 31, 2014 22:45:44 GMT -5
We're the only species that grasps existence as an idea unto itself. That's why atheism doesn't compute. Our species is kin to something eternal just like the Bible says.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2014 9:27:15 GMT -5
We're the only species that grasps existence as an idea unto itself. How do you know this?The fact that an individual knows that they will not exist forever has nothing to do with a paranormal being. This is difficult for you because you feel very limited/lonely without your imaginary friend. From what you have posted, the idea that it is all over for the individual when life ends is an anathema to you. It is for many people so a belief is created to provide some meaning beyond death for those who do not feel they have meaning during their life without some further promise.This is your belief which you accept on faith, without logical or material support. Consider this: Even if the resurrection of Jesus happened exactly as the bible says, that still doesn't mean it was supernatural or an act of God. What if it was the work of aliens, or nanotechnology? Or aliens with nanotechnology. At least we know these things are actually possible. Does that sound ridiculous to you? So why does it make any more sense to believe that it was literally magic?You seem to be so wedded to the magic of god that even to consider an alternative is difficult, if not impossible.
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Post by Lee on Apr 1, 2014 21:48:29 GMT -5
We're the only species that grasps existence as an idea unto itself. How do you know this? Show me evidence to the contrary. That's why atheism doesn't compute. The fact that an individual knows that they will not exist forever has nothing to do with a paranormal being. This is difficult for you because you feel very limited/lonely without your imaginary friend. From what you have posted, the idea that it is all over for the individual when life ends is an anathema to you. It is for many people so a belief is created to provide some meaning beyond death for those who do not feel they have meaning during their life without some further promise. No. What's going on is that people do conceive of eternity and they want significance in light of it. Go eat some more dog food if that makes you happy. Our species is kin to something eternal just like the Bible says. This is your belief which you accept on faith, without logical or material support. Oh no. The vast majority of mankind pauses over the mystery of life and death, and good and evil. Consider this: Even if the resurrection of Jesus happened exactly as the bible says, that still doesn't mean it was supernatural or an act of God. What if it was the work of aliens, or nanotechnology? Or aliens with nanotechnology. At least we know these things are actually possible. Does that sound ridiculous to you? So why does it make any more sense to believe that it was literally magic?You seem to be so wedded to the magic of god that even to consider an alternative is difficult, if not impossible. I'm wedded to the holy spirit who makes all things possible. If angels and human beings conspired to create the myth of JC it'd be more not less miraculous than God over-riding the general physical procession.
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Post by xna on Apr 1, 2014 22:30:54 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2014 8:47:24 GMT -5
I don't know who you are but if you keep posting facts and backing them up you are soon going to run into trouble! Thanks for the post and saving me the trouble of tracking down the references.
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2014 8:58:16 GMT -5
]Show me evidence to the contrary. You will find it posted above by a kindly posted who took the time to look up the facts rather than just make unsupported statements.You are correct. People want to believe that death is not the end of the road so they create an eternity and furnish it to meet their needs - they build a castle in the clouds, so to speak. A house with many mansions. Built on a foundation of faith, faith that requires neither logical nor material proof.I am sure most people do. And some create artifacts to make them feel good about things for which they believe they must have answers. This creation of a belief system to fill the void that these people feel is not universal. Probably a very comforting belief. How do you come to terms with the things that are not made possible? The unanswered prayers?You place human created myths that high on the scale? Wow.
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Post by blacksheep on Apr 2, 2014 10:14:17 GMT -5
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Post by Lee on Apr 2, 2014 23:15:44 GMT -5
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Post by Lee on Apr 2, 2014 23:19:14 GMT -5
I'm wedded to the holy spirit who makes all things possible. Probably a very comforting belief. How do you come to terms with the things that are not made possible? The unanswered prayers? God's thoughts are higher than ours. If angels and human beings conspired to create the myth of JC it'd be more not less miraculous than God over-riding the general physical procession. You place human created myths that high on the scale? Wow. The JC myth/event is pretty awesome whichever way you dice it.
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 0:04:21 GMT -5
Probably a very comforting belief. How do you come to terms with the things that are not made possible? The unanswered prayers? God's thoughts are higher than ours. Sounds like another use for the god of the gaps. Prayers are not answered - we don't know why but it must be god's will. The bible promises prayer will be answered but god knows best so that prayer is disregarded.So are the Norse myths about their gods. And the Greek myths. And they are older than the JC myth. I don't think awesome is the word that works here.
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Post by Lee on Apr 3, 2014 0:30:44 GMT -5
The myth of JC involves the dilemma of freedom versus justice. Mankind could be swiped from the globe as he allegedly once was. This is what he deserves given his penchant to rule evilly over himself. But might doesn't make right of itself because God is love, and love involves freewill. Amazing to consider the myth of JC might gradually be immunizing the world of fratricide.
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Post by fixit on Apr 3, 2014 5:36:44 GMT -5
Few of us live out our ideological idealizations but I'm one of them. I'm not against atheists for what they believe in but what they don't. Being against anyone is pointless imo. Should I be against you because you are Christian? I would say no. We don't believe in God. Period. We do believe in love and compassion, caring about others and their welfare, trying to be the very best we can be in this life. We just don't share your belief in God. I wonder if the ungodliness of those who profess to believe in God is a major driver for atheism.
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2014 6:40:20 GMT -5
No. Atheists talk in circles and use scientific jargon and yet dodge simple answers to questions. But if you believe in nothing, that it Ok with me. Being an atheist is an answer to one question: you do not accept the claim there is a god. It answers only that one single question. It tells you nothing about what they do believe in. Each atheist can hold unique other beliefs. By only knowing someone is an atheist you know nothing about their other beliefs except they reject the claim of a particular god. Christians are also atheist in the minds of someone who believes in another non Christian god. I don't believe in any of gods, so poly atheism seems the most exact expression of me. To me, all people are born atheist and remain so until or unless they adopt a belief in a god, and yes atheist disagree on this too. Some ideas many people have general come to believe in, be they theist or atheist ie; the golden rule , the code of Hammurabi, reciprocal altruism, empathy - Theory of mind, ECG en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabien.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Ruleen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruismen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mindAs they say; the difference between an atheist and a Christian is, atheist believe in one less god than Christians.
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 8:10:41 GMT -5
The myth of JC involves the dilemma of freedom versus justice. That theme also can be found in Crime and Punishment.Swiped like a fraudulent credit card! Mankind certainly could cause his own demise. Kurt Vonnegut's explored this concept in Cat's Cradle with the development of Ice-nine.I agree. I see things like the mud slides in Washington as natural phenomena but when you have an all powerful being that you believe controls the universe and all within it you must have to ask yourself "What did these people do wrong so have the wrath of god punish them so severely". That kind of love I can do without.Is the homicide of brothers even spoken against in the JC myth?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 3, 2014 9:43:34 GMT -5
xna wrote - Each atheist can hold unique other beliefs. By only knowing someone is an atheist you know nothing about their other beliefs except they reject the claim of a particular god.
I appreciated this explanation. We are sooooooo inclined to hang a "label" on a person, and then have all kinds of preconceived thoughts and ideas and judgements on that person. I was reminded of my erroneous inclination towards this a while ago when we were in Ramallah, Israel. A young Muslim Palestinian was sharing his anguishing experience of losing his friends to Israeli soldiers (describing in some detail the brutal killings), and I made some off-remark about he sure must not like the Jews because of this . (or something to that effect) Strongly correcting me , he said "YOU CAN NOT GENERALIZE", and he went on to explain how his family (Muslim) have very precious friends who are Israeli Jews. You can't judge a person strictly on his religion ,nationality , beliefs or non-beliefs, color of skin, occupation, etc etc etc. Surely, he spoke wisely. Like, xna, and others have expressed, knowing someone as an atheist , describes only one attribute of that person. It is also common to observe "labels" being bandied around to denigrate people, like, they're "Christian", or "professing" or "black" or ............ Thanks xna. Alvin
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2014 10:35:09 GMT -5
Alvin wrote - I was reminded of my erroneous inclination towards this a while ago when we were in Ramallah, Israel. A young Muslim Palestinian was sharing his anguishing experience of losing his friends to Israeli soldiers (describing in some detail the brutal killings), and I made some off-remark about he sure must not like the Jews because of this . (or something to that effect) Strongly correcting me , he said "YOU CAN NOT GENERALIZE". The first person who ever told me he was an atheist was an Israeli. I was still professing then, and was shocked that someone would admit that openly. At the time I was repulsed by him, and thought he must be the agent of the devil himself. He turned out to be a nice guy, and over time I found he had good reasons for coming to that position. This process took many years for me - being a slow learner. I have sense told him that story, and that I now share his view. For him an atheist in Israel is not an exceptional position. From that experience, I learned to put everyone at the same position when I first meet them. Then, based on what they do, or say I move them up or down from there. I have too been in Ramallah, seen car bombing, and terrorist or "freedom fighters" shot in front of me. Israel is a place of religion at the extremes. Like many things taken to their logical ends, the god question become more clear. I guess that may explain in part why there are many more unbelievers in Israel than in the USA. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Israel
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 11:20:32 GMT -5
xna wrote - Each atheist can hold unique other beliefs. By only knowing someone is an atheist you know nothing about their other beliefs except they reject the claim of a particular god. Each atheist can hold unique other beliefs. By only knowing someone is an atheist you know nothing about their other beliefs except they reject the claim of a ny particular god.
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Post by fred on Apr 3, 2014 17:22:54 GMT -5
Alvin wrote - I was reminded of my erroneous inclination towards this a while ago when we were in Ramallah, Israel. A young Muslim Palestinian was sharing his anguishing experience of losing his friends to Israeli soldiers (describing in some detail the brutal killings), and I made some off-remark about he sure must not like the Jews because of this . (or something to that effect) Strongly correcting me , he said "YOU CAN NOT GENERALIZE". The first person who ever told me he was an atheist was an Israeli. I was still professing then, and was shocked that someone would admit that openly. At the time I was repulsed by him, and thought he must be the agent of the devil himself. He turned out to be a nice guy, and over time I found he had good reasons for coming to that position. This process took many years for me - being a slow learner. I have sense told him that story, and that I now share his view. For him an atheist in Israel is not an exceptional position. From that experience, I learned to put everyone at the same position when I first meet them. Then, based on what they do, or say I move them up or down from there. I have too been in Ramallah, seen car bombing, and terrorist or "freedom fighters" shot in front of me. Israel is a place of religion at the extremes. Like many things taken to their logical ends, the god question become more clear. I guess that may explain in part why there are many more unbelievers in Israel than in the USA. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism#Israel During my university years I became good friends with a guy who was Jewish - it boggled my mind to realize that he was also an atheist. Since then I have come to a better understanding of what it means to be a Jew.
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Post by rational on Apr 3, 2014 17:46:57 GMT -5
During my university years I became good friends with a guy who was Jewish - it boggled my mind to realize that he was also an atheist. Since then I have come to a better understanding of what it means to be a Jew. What it means from a religious standpoint or cultural? In the old race classification most people in that area would be classified as Caucasians. I guess it could be narrowed to semites who originated/live in the Near East. Jews are tough to classify since it is mainly their beliefs that separate them from their neighbors.
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