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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 9:03:21 GMT -5
I wish I could hang around long enough to be able to say "I told you so!"
In the 1980's a feminist relative and her friends took me to task about women wearing tattoos. I said I can see a time when tattoos would be mainstream for women. I was "extreme" and I was an "embarrasment" to them because it seemed so revolting.
I also said I believed the "sexualizing" of children would be "storm in a tea cup." Haven't heard the issue even mentioned in the Australian media for the past four or five years.
Yes, "Slippery Slope" can be a logic fallacy. It can also, as many social commentators have acknowledged - be true.
And yes, I consider some of the new laws re child porn to be watered down. And even liberal US newspapers think so, too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 9:07:59 GMT -5
I wish I could hang around long enough to be able to say "I told you so!" In the 1980's a feminist relative and her friends took me to task about women wearing tattoos. I said I can see a time when tattoos would be mainstream for women. I was "extreme" and I was an "embarrasment" to them because it seemed so revolting. I also said I believed the "sexualizing" of children would be "storm in a tea cup." Haven't heard the issue even mentioned in the Australian media for the past four or five years. Yes, "Slippery Slope" can be a logic fallacy. It can also, as many social commentators have acknowledged - be true. And yes, I consider some of the new laws re child porn to be watered down. And even liberal US newspapers think so, too. Meanwhile, your own Victoria is ramping up child abuse legislation........how would that be a "told you so"? Child protection legislation has been getting tougher and tougher all over the world for the last 25 years. That process is undeniable and it will soon get tougher as it starts to get more intrusive into the homes. The civil liberty people aren't going to like it. If there is a slippery slope here, they are slipping uphill.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 9:16:02 GMT -5
That's true, but unfortunately, a slightly different issue. It's a bit like banning cigarettes because they are "not good for you" but legalizing narcotics because of the failure of the war on drugs. Immorality passes through three stages. First, it is reviled. Second, it is debated. Third, we wonder what the hell we were arguing about. Bert. Here's an example: Quote - By Jane Graham – 11 April 2014 Beauty pageants aren't about beauty, a 14-year-old pageant devotee told the BBC this week. They're about confidence. Jasmine was one of many who called BBC 5Live to cheer the growing popularity of child beauty pageants in the UK and explain to all the disapproving doubting Thomasinas out there that such contests have no impact beyond sending home a bunch of happy, fulfilled little girls at the end of a fun-filled day.www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/jane-graham/why-theres-nothing-beautiful-about-judging-little-girls-30175236.htmlNext will come the kiddie bikini beauty contests, the peek-a-boo bras, knickers and what have you - 15 years, max. But I don't think this will be the route to true child porn - the "beauty pageants" provide an unconscious supporting role. Nor will "virtual child porn" provide a direct support. I think child porn will simply come by wearing down people's resistance, one slice at a time - just like most other moral issues were decided. It will be about "tolerance" above all, ie "you are sick, but who am I to judge if no-one has been hurt" People have no bearing on what is right anymore. It's all a matter of opinion. You will be a "disapproving doubting Thomas" as if the problem is yours, not your sicko society. And the numbers of men watching this porn seems to be growing exponentially. It's like people not bothering to complain about sex, violence and bad language on TV and radio. They can do it, but in the end just give up. Its moral exhaustion. Then you will wonder what the fuss was all about.
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Post by fixit on Apr 16, 2014 18:44:20 GMT -5
Bert, why do you think more is being done now to combat child sexual abuse than earlier generations have done?
Why do you think the Victorian and Commonweath governments are trying to make religious authorities accountable?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 19:05:25 GMT -5
I hear you. It's a strange situation. But you can't say what I wrote is not true.
What appears to be happening is two things:
1 - we are cracking down on child abuse. 2 - we are redefining child abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 19:45:04 GMT -5
I hear you. It's a strange situation. But you can't say what I wrote is not true. What appears to be happening is two things: 1 - we are cracking down on child abuse. 2 - we are redefining child abuse.You have both right. Not only are laws getting tougher about child abuse, but child abuse is being redefined to include things that two generations ago thought was either not abuse at all or in some cases, proper parenting.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:15:43 GMT -5
Yes I find it strange too.
We don't allow kids down coal mines anymore, but....
About 47% of Australian children now belong to single parent "families" Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 30% increase in children on Care and Protection Orders in six years. 2008 Queensland figures reveal a 2000% (two thousand) rise in the rate of juvenile sex attacks in less than 10 years. 25% of Australian children under the age of 14 have had sex. 25% of Australian men who sought DNA confirmation in paternity cases discovered they are not the father. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 50% of parents polled don’t monitor what their children watch on TV, up from 20% just 15 years earlier. Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dec 7th 2011 27% increase in violence in Victorian school in 3 years, with 57% of teachers threatened or faced aggressive language. Galaxy Survey Jan 2012. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. Drug addicted babies tripled in ten years. 2012 Journal American Medical Assoc.. Juvenile male assaults more than doubled in ten years (1527 in 2000-2001 to 3776 in 2009-2010) Vic Children Court stats.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:22:25 GMT -5
Yes I find it strange too.
We don't allow kids down coal mines anymore, but.... About 47% of Australian children now belong to single parent "families" Teenage binge drinking doubled in 6 years 71% increase in sexual violence against children in 9 years. 30.2% of teenagers have sold, consumed or been offered drugs in the past year 30% increase in children on Care and Protection Orders in six years. 2008 Queensland figures reveal a 2000% (two thousand) rise in the rate of juvenile sex attacks in less than 10 years. 25% of Australian children under the age of 14 have had sex. 25% of Australian men who sought DNA confirmation in paternity cases discovered they are not the father. 30% increase in sexual activity and drinking for year 12 girls since 2002. (Australian Research Centre for Sex, Health and Society.) 50% of parents polled don’t monitor what their children watch on TV, up from 20% just 15 years earlier. Australian Research Alliance for Children and Youth, Dec 7th 2011 27% increase in violence in Victorian school in 3 years, with 57% of teachers threatened or faced aggressive language. Galaxy Survey Jan 2012. UNH Crimes against Children Research Center (CCRC) 2009. Three out of five children were exposed to violence, abuse or a criminal victimization in the last year, including 46 percent who had been physically assaulted, 10 percent who had been maltreated by a caregiver, 6 percent who had been sexually victimized, and 10 percent who had witnessed an assault within their family. Drug addicted babies tripled in ten years. 2012 Journal American Medical Assoc.. Juvenile male assaults more than doubled in ten years (1527 in 2000-2001 to 3776 in 2009-2010) Vic Children Court stats.
"Figures don’t lie, but liars figure." Mark Twain Not that I'm calling you a liar Bert because I don't believe you are. The point is, your statistics have demonstrated over and over that they represent a delusion that the world is falling apart. And when another world crisis occurs, you will say "I told you so" but the reality is that the world is most likely to use the crisis to learn and make a better world.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2014 23:35:16 GMT -5
No, I posted the thread about the reduction of violence in our society.
I kinda suspect that a lot of what went on crime stats in the past are things now decriminalized. And visa versa.
Other generations would shrug if you bashed your wife, and would string you up of you let your 8 year old publicy parade in sexy apparel.
The world isn't falling apart, but I do like to tell people that for every invention we both gain and lose something. So it's hard to tease out what signifies what, and where we are going.
One thing for certain - we are becoming less Christian and more ungodly.
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Post by snow on Apr 17, 2014 11:14:39 GMT -5
No, I posted the thread about the reduction of violence in our society. I kinda suspect that a lot of what went on crime stats in the past are things now decriminalized. And visa versa. Other generations would shrug if you bashed your wife, and would string you up of you let your 8 year old publicy parade in sexy apparel. The world isn't falling apart, but I do like to tell people that for every invention we both gain and lose something. So it's hard to tease out what signifies what, and where we are going. One thing for certain - we are becoming less Christian and more ungodly. Less Christian does not necessarily mean less Godly. Sometimes Christianity is incompatible with Godliness. All the things that might be good about religions, can also make them incompatible with compassion, egalitarianism and basic human rights.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2014 18:23:07 GMT -5
Quote - "Less Christian does not necessarily mean less Godly. Sometimes Christianity is incompatible with Godliness. All the things that might be good about religions, can also make them incompatible with compassion, egalitarianism and basic human rights."
How so? I don't think this has been thought through. Christianit is simply being like Jesus. As John put it, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did".
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Post by snow on Apr 18, 2014 19:54:28 GMT -5
Quote - "Less Christian does not necessarily mean less Godly. Sometimes Christianity is incompatible with Godliness. All the things that might be good about religions, can also make them incompatible with compassion, egalitarianism and basic human rights." How so? I don't think this has been thought through. Christianit is simply being like Jesus. As John put it, " Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did". Because sometimes people do bad things when they think they are being like Jesus. Especially when they interpret what Jesus was like was to be exclusive etc.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 23:09:28 GMT -5
Ross Quote - "Over the past 20 years there has been a yawning and growing gap between the public teaching of senior male workers around the world and private behaviour." I can't comment without specifics.
Quote - "Senior male workers are accountable to no-one and head workers are largely promoted on the basis of cronyism and nepotism. Promoted to what? A bigger suitcase?
Quote - "There are zero accountability measures in place." Accountable for what?
Quote - "Do you hold your leaders responsible for the chasm that exists between their public preaching and private behaviour? I can't comment without specifics. And specifics need to be the Ministry and not a single person.
Quote - "Do you think (getting back to this thread topic) that young people are looking at your senior leaders and simply saying "they don't live what they preach, so why obey them?" You are CONTENT to live in a world what exactly WHO or WHAT is your example? I don't see Workers not living by what they preach. If I did I would raise the issue with them. And if a preacher (any preacher, any church) says not to commit adultery, and I see him or her doing it - that's no license for me not to obey that edict, or is it? One Worker put it recently that the Gospel is a "two edge sword" - it applies to the preacher as much as it does to the laity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 23:14:49 GMT -5
Snow quote - "Because sometimes people do bad things when they think they are being like Jesus. Especially when they interpret what Jesus was like was to be exclusive etc."
That's why reading scripture is so important. You get a good idea not only of HOW Jesus lived, but WHY. Peole can resort to proof texts and/or church traditions, but in the end we all have a good idea of how Jesus lived.
nb those who try to tell you Paul has no legitimacy, will also bridle at John's verse, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did." That was Paul's message too.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2014 7:51:36 GMT -5
Quote - "A shame for those who care about the church and want to see it survive."
I am sure it can "survive" in a different format - modernized; secularized; morally neutered; scripturally watered down; televangelized; global-warming aware and hip-hopped to death (see my thread Father Bob.)
But I certainly wouldn't be a part of it.
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Post by jj on Apr 21, 2014 6:59:24 GMT -5
Many heterosexual people like casual sex also!
I've heard it said that sexuality is a spectrum, not black and white. Many potential determining factors, genetic, hormonal etc. Who am I to judge? As I was thinking about the title of this thread some words of the Billy Joel song 'A matter of trust' came to mind
It took a lot for you to not lose your faith in this world I can't offer you proof But you're going to face a moment of truth It's hard when you're always afraid You just recover when another belief is betrayed... After you've heard lie upon lie It can hardly be a question of why
JJ ~ I feel you bring up some good points above! I also can see Bert's side of this argument according to the trends we are witnessing today's culture. However, like Snow said earlier, "change can be viewed as chaos at first" before it becomes meaningful within society. I feel in the present time we're seeing a paradigm shift in different views on sexual orientation. I don't believe this is a bad thing; in fact, I feel it's long over-due. People cannot live within a "bubble" forever in the way they view this world through their own individual religious beliefs. There has to be a shift in perspective eventually to get along within this world? I feel this is what is being viewed today with people "kicking and screaming" over the realization of a shift in this perspective? What do you think? Sorry I didn't reply sooner Faune , you made good points which I agree with- I guess all social changes eventually bring people out of their bubble in the end. Perhaps it's what's different and unknown that scares people, it even scares me at times
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2014 21:12:13 GMT -5
Bert, I have to ask ! You said you don't see workers not living what they preach. So I am curious how many workers do you know ? I would guess that I am younger than you & I can think of 4 workers from NSW & Vic that have not lived what they preached .... without adding QLD, SA & WA !
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2014 21:27:13 GMT -5
did you know many gays like "casual sex"? So is it only gays that like casual sex Bert !!!! Isobelrose. Heterosexuals are often into "casual sex" but it's by far more prevalent with homosexual men. Here you have BOTH partners with the same male nature - perhaps this is the reason. I don't wish to be "gay bashing" but today's sexual issue is gays.
In another generation there were issues about feminism; abortion; divorce etc which would have filled any early pre-internet TMB site. Bert, can you tell us just how the hell you know that "casual sex" "is far more prevalent with homosexual men?
Also, why should "sex" be such an "issue" in any generation if people would just mind their own business and let people love people without placing a censure on those people?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 22:16:59 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Apr 21, 2014 22:40:24 GMT -5
No doubt one can find straight men with similar statistics. One can also find gay men who have been with the same partner for decades. What is your point?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 22:48:51 GMT -5
the point was "how do you know" and we "know" from statistics...in my younger years i was pretty "wild" and i've only had 4 women thats afar cry from 100-500...i've heard rumors that magic johnson had 1000 partners and wilt chamberline had 20,000...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2014 22:52:21 GMT -5
YES, WALLY, AND WHAT IS THAT SITE ALL ABOUT THAT YOU REFERRED TO?
What kind of propaganda would you expect from them?
This is what they are about:(from wiki)
"The Family Research Council (FRC) is an American conservative Christian group and lobbying organization formed in the United States in 1981 by James Dobson. It was incorporated in 1983.[2] In the late 1980s, the FRC officially became a division of Dobson's main organization, Focus on the Family, but after an administrative separation, the FRC became an independent entity in 1992. Tony Perkins is the current president.
The FRC promotes what it considers to be traditional family values, by advocating and lobbying for socially conservative policies.
It opposes and lobbies against LGBT rights (such as same-sex marriage and LGBT adoption), abortion, divorce, embryonic stem-cell research and pornography.
The FRC is affiliated with a 501(c)(4) lobbying PAC known as FRC Action.[3]
In 2010, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) classified the FRC as an anti-gay hate group, a designation which generated controversy. In 2012, a security guard working at the FRC headquarters was shot by a man who saw the organization listed on the SPLC's web site."
If the Southern Poverty Law Center says that the The Family Research Council is an anti-gay hate group, you can bet your bottom dollar that they are an anti-gay hate group!
The Southern Poverty Law Center has been fighting hate groups for years, and my husband & I have supported the Southern Poverty Law Center for years.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2014 22:57:49 GMT -5
the point was "how do you know" and we "know" from statistics...in my younger years i was pretty "wild" and i've only had 4 women thats afar cry from 100-500...i've heard rumors that magic johnson had 1000 partners and wilt chamberline had 20,000... Good Lord! Wally, you actually admit to having had 4 (four)women?
and have the nerve to say "only" four?
And now YOU are on your high horse about "casual sex?"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 22:58:14 GMT -5
no different then propaganda from a left wing site like SPLC...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 22:59:52 GMT -5
the point was "how do you know" and we "know" from statistics...in my younger years i was pretty "wild" and i've only had 4 women thats afar cry from 100-500...i've heard rumors that magic johnson had 1000 partners and wilt chamberline had 20,000... Good Lord! Wally, you actually admit to having had 4 (four)women?
and have the nerve to say "only" four?
And now YOU are on your high horse about "casual sex?"
we all make mistakes in this life that were not proud of...and yes i have some authority to speak on such matters...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 22, 2014 0:34:23 GMT -5
no different then propaganda from a left wing site like SPLC... Hardly left wing propaganda.
This what the southern Poverty Law Center does. "The Southern Poverty Law Center is dedicated to fighting hate and bigotry and to seeking justice for the most vulnerable members of our society.
Using litigation, education, and other forms of advocacy, the Center works toward the day when the ideals of equal justice and equal opportunity will be a reality.
Founded by civil rights lawyers Morris Dees and Joseph Levin Jr. in 1971, the SPLC is internationally known for tracking and exposing the activities of hate groups.
Our innovative Teaching Tolerance program produces and distributes – free of charge – documentary films, books, lesson plans and other materials that promote tolerance and respect in our nation’s schools.
The SPLC was founded to ensure that the promises of the civil rights movement became a reality for all. Since our founding in 1971, we’ve won numerous landmark legal victories on behalf of the exploited, the powerless and the forgotten.
Our lawsuits have toppled institutional racism in the South, bankrupted some of the nation’s most violent white supremacist groups and won justice for exploited workers, abused prison inmates, disabled children and other victims of discrimination. They have taken on hate crime groups like the neo-Nazis & white supremacists like the Klu Klux Klan.
You surely aren't a member of either of those groups are you, Wally?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 0:38:33 GMT -5
Rom_12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor(hate) that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
the SPLC keeps redefining what is hate to suit thier needs...they are as left wing as it gets...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 22, 2014 0:45:05 GMT -5
Good Lord! Wally, you actually admit to having had 4 (four)women?
and have the nerve to say "only" four?
And now YOU are on your high horse about "casual sex?"
we all make mistakes in this life that were not proud of...and yes i have some authority to speak on such matters... Well, if you consider having sex with 4 (four) different people makes you an authority on such matters, you win hands down over me!
Did any of those liaisons produce any progeny?
If so, I hope that you are taking responsibility for their upbringing.
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