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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 11, 2014 15:49:58 GMT -5
I tip my hat to those who can believe in Christianity and somehow rise above such archaic and divisive mindsets. Those would be the mystics. I still maintain that there is a thread ... that runs though all peoples, places, times. (And no, it is definitely not 2X2ism. But it doesn't exclude 2X2 members either.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 20:15:54 GMT -5
So, presuming you left your little meeting BrownOwl (to the consternation of all who loved you and are faithful) where did you find The Real Truth? nb And remember, most of these people don't like any sort of sexual misconduct - be it CSA, divorce, sex-before-marriage, homosexuality, bestiality, porn, sexual innuendo, promiscuity, incest, single- parenthood and a host of other things which are an indespensible part of the world's "popular culture" and pretty well taken for granted behavior these days. Bert, you are describing people who I have seen attending your church. The only difference is they are not so open about it. A good argument Wobblyboot (love that name) Never heard anyone in my church say they are perfect. I knew one man who was having an affair. Certainly hope he has grown up and repented (!) But that says something about HIM and not his church. It would say something about his church IF our church decided to CONDONE such behavior - as is happening in mainstream churches as divorce, homosexuality etc are increasingly condoned.
That's different. Very different.
I go further - if you join a church where, say, divorce and remarriage are accepted as normal, then YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS THE PEOPLE WHO COMMIT THIS ADULTERY, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF HAVEN'T COMMITTED IT, because you show you are not offended by the doctrine.
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Post by Gene on Apr 11, 2014 20:38:53 GMT -5
Bert, you are describing people who I have seen attending your church. The only difference is they are not so open about it. A good argument Wobblyboot (love that name) Never heard anyone in my church say they are perfect. I knew one man who was having an affair. Certainly hope he has grown up and repented (!) But that says something about HIM and not his church. It would say something about his church IF our church decided to CONDONE such behavior - as is happening in mainstream churches as divorce, homosexuality etc are increasingly condoned.
That's different. Very different.
I go further - if you join a church where, say, divorce and remarriage are accepted as normal, then YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS THE PEOPLE WHO COMMIT THIS ADULTERY, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF HAVEN'T COMMITTED IT, because you show you are not offended by the doctrine.Oh good lord. Who needs Bert's favorite show, five and a half men, when we have Bert for entertainment?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 20:43:32 GMT -5
i believe bert is probably referencing these two verses...
2Jn_1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 2Jn_1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
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Post by fred on Apr 11, 2014 20:48:10 GMT -5
Bert, you are describing people who I have seen attending your church. The only difference is they are not so open about it. A good argument Wobblyboot (love that name) Never heard anyone in my church say they are perfect. I knew one man who was having an affair. Certainly hope he has grown up and repented (!) But that says something about HIM and not his church. It would say something about his church IF our church decided to CONDONE such behavior - as is happening in mainstream churches as divorce, homosexuality etc are increasingly condoned.
That's different. Very different.
I go further - if you join a church where, say, divorce and remarriage are accepted as normal, then YOU ARE AS GUILTY AS THE PEOPLE WHO COMMIT THIS ADULTERY, EVEN IF YOU YOURSELF HAVEN'T COMMITTED IT, because you show you are not offended by the doctrine.Talk about how moral attitudes have changed in the fellowship, and this is fact though you are probably not empowered to believe it. Back in the 50's in a case I am very familiar with, a young worker was caught in an affair with a married friend. John Hardie immediately dismissed him and told him to get as far out west as he could go. Fast forward to the 2000's and the same behaviour is excused in several cases that I am aware of. Now the story is, 'oh, he has apologised and we're short of workers anyway.' What ought to happen to a worker who fathers a child and wants to continue in the job? You don't see this as a decline?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 21:47:30 GMT -5
Excellent Ross. And most of us would agree with you.
As per divorce - its a mystery to many observers but in Australia the divorce rate for church attenders is actually higher than for people who don't attend church. And the churches are forced to accept this. This is a one very valid point the "gay community" have posited about church "hypocrisy" - ie the churches will accept D&R, which Jesus said was adultery, but wouldn't accept homosexuals because it is banned in the bible.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 11, 2014 21:49:16 GMT -5
Back to the original question of why today's professing youth are drifting away from the meetings. One thing I believe is a contributing factor is that they have learned to question what they are told. Here is a small example.... Many years ago I was told an amazing story by a worker or elder (I honestly cant recall) about how some scientists were calculating some planetary or star positions and the super computer they were using found an error in the timeline. One of the men was familiar with the Bible and they found the "lost time" that the computer said was missing.
I recently went through some old papers of my folks and found a printed copy. A few minutes later on snopes I found it.
The Lost Day
When a worker or elder tells you something that turns out to be untrue, how are you able to believe anything else that they tell you??
Court records and news reports are accessible like never before, and the youth of today are diligent in searching out such things. When the official (2x2 leadership approved) story conflicts with news reports or court records some will keep trusting the 2x2 leaders but many will lose their zeal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 21:51:36 GMT -5
Quote - "Oh good lord. Who needs Bert's favorite show, five and a half men, when we have Bert for entertainment?"
ha ha ha !!!!!
Isn't that TWO and a half men? Is it possible that one day a "two and a half men" show will be about two gays and a "gay boy" * Such a moral leap is not as great as the one from the days of "I Dream of Jeannie" to Two and a half men." And I believe this leap will be inevitable.
* pre-adult homosexual male for those who don't know.
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Post by xna on Apr 11, 2014 21:54:06 GMT -5
Back to the original question of why today's professing youth are drifting away from the meetings. One thing I believe is a contributing factor is that they have learned to question what they are told. Here is a small example.... Many years ago I was told an amazing story by a worker or elder (I honestly cant recall) about how some scientists were calculating some planetary or star positions and the super computer they were using found an error in the timeline. One of the men was familiar with the Bible and they found the "lost time" that the computer said was missing.
I recently went through some old papers of my folks and found a printed copy. A few minutes later on snopes I found it.
The Lost Day
When a worker or elder tells you something that turns out to be untrue, how are you able to believe anything else that they tell you??
Court records and news reports are accessible like never before, and the youth of today are diligent in searching out such things. When the official (2x2 leadership approved) story conflicts with news reports or court records some will keep trusting the 2x2 leaders but many will lose their zeal. What's the harm? A site is worth visiting... whatstheharm.net
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 21:55:44 GMT -5
Back to the original question of why today's professing youth are drifting away from the meetings. One thing I believe is a contributing factor is that they have learned to question what they are told. Here is a small example.... Many years ago I was told an amazing story by a worker or elder (I honestly cant recall) about how some scientists were calculating some planetary or star positions and the super computer they were using found an error in the timeline. One of the men was familiar with the Bible and they found the "lost time" that the computer said was missing.
I recently went through some old papers of my folks and found a printed copy. A few minutes later on snopes I found it.
The Lost Day
When a worker or elder tells you something that turns out to be untrue, how are you able to believe anything else that they tell you??
Court records and news reports are accessible like never before, and the youth of today are diligent in searching out such things. When the official (2x2 leadership approved) story conflicts with news reports or court records some will keep trusting the 2x2 leaders but many will lose their zeal. That could have been the old saw about the sun going backward in Gideon's time. With this wonderful thing call Google I looked this up five years ago. Ha!!! The story goes that a computer was crunching some earth orbital stats when a red light starting flashing and a siren went off. I stopped right there - data is data to a computer, nothing more. The story is utterly FAKE. But some religious people, for whom the story was invented, swallowed it hook, line and sinker. As it is, my church contains lots of religious people too. Sigh...
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 22:35:51 GMT -5
you can surprise the father through free will... Snow Using a term from our senior poster Surely you can't put much stock in Matisses neouroscientist and psycholgist whose thoughts change with the weather. Prophets of God have shown a consistency found no where elsr in the world.Jesus is reliable ,trustworthy and desires theos who worship Him in spirit and truth. Those who are all for Jesus enjoy a liberty and joy the world has a hard time understanding but find easy belittling. Jmt ken you can surprise the father through free will... Snow Using a term from our senior poster Surely you can't put much stock in Matisses neouroscientist and psycholgist whose thoughts change with the weather. Prophets of God have shown a consistency found no where elsr in the world.Jesus is reliable ,trustworthy and desires theos who worship Him in spirit and truth. Those who are all for Jesus enjoy a liberty and joy the world has a hard time understanding but find easy belittling. Jmt ken Trying to compare the so-called "Prophets of God" and the study neuroscience, isn't even comparing "apples & oranges"-it isn't even comparing fruit with electrons!
Could it be that those so-called "Prophets of God" show a "consistency" because they didn't really know anything much to start with and never sought to enlarge even that little knowledge that they had?
Whereby, those that study neuroscience, a study of nerves and especially of how nerves affect our learning and behavior,-continue to learn & build on what they know?
That isn't a matter of "changing with the weather."
If the neuro-sciencitist wouldn't have kept learning and building on that, we wouldn't have medicine that relieves many of the illnesses, -epilepsy, Parkinson's, schizophrenia, to name a few.
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Post by gecko45 on Apr 11, 2014 22:39:50 GMT -5
Back to the original question of why today's professing youth are drifting away from the meetings. One thing I believe is a contributing factor is that they have learned to question what they are told. Here is a small example.... Many years ago I was told an amazing story by a worker or elder (I honestly cant recall) about how some scientists were calculating some planetary or star positions and the super computer they were using found an error in the timeline. One of the men was familiar with the Bible and they found the "lost time" that the computer said was missing.
I recently went through some old papers of my folks and found a printed copy. A few minutes later on snopes I found it.
The Lost Day
When a worker or elder tells you something that turns out to be untrue, how are you able to believe anything else that they tell you??
Court records and news reports are accessible like never before, and the youth of today are diligent in searching out such things. When the official (2x2 leadership approved) story conflicts with news reports or court records some will keep trusting the 2x2 leaders but many will lose their zeal. That could have been the old saw about the sun going backward in Gideon's time. With this wonderful thing call Google I looked this up five years ago. Ha!!! The story goes that a computer was crunching some earth orbital stats when a red light starting flashing and a siren went off. I stopped right there - data is data to a computer, nothing more. The story is utterly FAKE. But some religious people, for whom the story was invented, swallowed it hook, line and sinker. As it is, my church contains lots of religious people too. Sigh...I was young and gullible, I "swallowed" the story like the sheep we were taught to be. Remember I was a young naive boy from a small town in the upper midwest, we were taught that going to college could "ruin your faith". Compared to the typical farm families that professed in the golden era (1910-1940) we were tough customers in the late 70's but bought into the system readily. Today's youth exponentially harder to fool.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2014 22:41:30 GMT -5
Back to the original question of why today's professing youth are drifting away from the meetings. One thing I believe is a contributing factor is that they have learned to question what they are told. Here is a small example.... Many years ago I was told an amazing story by a worker or elder (I honestly cant recall) about how some scientists were calculating some planetary or star positions and the super computer they were using found an error in the timeline. One of the men was familiar with the Bible and they found the "lost time" that the computer said was missing.
I recently went through some old papers of my folks and found a printed copy. A few minutes later on snopes I found it.
The Lost Day
When a worker or elder tells you something that turns out to be untrue, how are you able to believe anything else that they tell you??
Court records and news reports are accessible like never before, and the youth of today are diligent in searching out such things. When the official (2x2 leadership approved) story conflicts with news reports or court records some will keep trusting the 2x2 leaders but many will lose their zeal. What's the harm? A site is worth visiting... whatstheharm.net
Great site! Thanks,
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timber
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Post by timber on Apr 12, 2014 7:16:38 GMT -5
My children don't profess because they feel that there is a lack of freedom of choice. My son is a talented musician and was told by a worker that he wouldn't be able to pursue this kind of career and still profess. This was very hurtful to him. While we have warned him about the dangers of some of the environments that musicians may find themselves in, we also know that from a very young age, he demonstrated a passion for it. We believe that people should use the talents that God has given to them, not bury them. My daughter never "fit in" with the young crowd and the cliques that formed with them. She values the freedom to search for a relationship with God without feeling like she has to give up her personality, etc.. Not sure if I made any sense, but this is my input..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 8:19:15 GMT -5
My children don't profess because they feel that there is a lack of freedom of choice. My son is a talented musician and was told by a worker that he wouldn't be able to pursue this kind of career and still profess. This was very hurtful to him. While we have warned him about the dangers of some of the environments that musicians may find themselves in, we also know that from a very young age, he demonstrated a passion for it. We believe that people should use the talents that God has given to them, not bury them. My daughter never "fit in" with the young crowd and the cliques that formed with them. She values the freedom to search for a relationship with God without feeling like she has to give up her personality, etc.. Not sure if I made any sense, but this is my input.. Makes perfect sense. While my kids continue to go to meeting, one is just like your daughter and has always been uncomfortable with the cliques whom she found tended to be interested in more shallow subjects and had a distinct in/out mentality. As a result, I think she can count the number of her professing friends on one hand that doesn't have a full complement of fingers, while at the same time having a huge number of good solid non-professing friends (but also avoiding the shallow clique-like non-professing friends as well). The point is, if you are a young professing person not interested in running with cliques, your social opportunities are greatly reduced and your main alternative is to look for friendship beyond the friends which can be much more satisfying for individualistic and independent people. That leads me to my next point. Why do kids stay in the meetings? Well, I would suggest that the social aspect is huge. However, the social aspect requires that you get into the cliques and run with the crowd. There isn't much room for individuality and those who enjoy the social aspect of the young friends are prepared to lose or reduce their individuality in exchange for the social life. If they do, they often have many nice friends and a decent social life. Sorry to hear about the worker who decided to become your son's parent. I thought they were getting out of the parenting business but perhaps not yet.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 10:31:59 GMT -5
Quote - "Oh good lord. Who needs Bert's favorite show, five and a half men, when we have Bert for entertainment?" ha ha ha !!!!! Isn't that TWO and a half men? Is it possible that one day a "two and a half men" show will be about two gays and a "gay boy" * Such a moral leap is not as great as the one from the days of "I Dream of Jeannie" to Two and a half men." And I believe this leap will be inevitable. * pre-adult homosexual male for those who don't know. And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 11:00:59 GMT -5
Quote - "Oh good lord. Who needs Bert's favorite show, five and a half men, when we have Bert for entertainment?" ha ha ha !!!!! Isn't that TWO and a half men? Is it possible that one day a "two and a half men" show will be about two gays and a "gay boy" * Such a moral leap is not as great as the one from the days of "I Dream of Jeannie" to Two and a half men." And I believe this leap will be inevitable. * pre-adult homosexual male for those who don't know. And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand? Unless it leads to them abusing people because of it, I am wondering why I should care about anyone's sexuality?
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 12, 2014 13:07:32 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the worker who decided to become your son's parent. I thought they were getting out of the parenting business but perhaps not yet."
Again, my "perverted mind", read this statement altogether wrong, but did manage to correct my error of interpretation, after rereading it. ~~~~~~~ Alvin
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 15:40:28 GMT -5
And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand? Unless it leads to them abusing people because of it, I am wondering why I should care about anyone's sexuality? Exactly, I don't think we should care unless there is abuse. We have seen some pretty horrific cases of abuse involving children of heterosexual couples.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 16:42:37 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about the worker who decided to become your son's parent. I thought they were getting out of the parenting business but perhaps not yet." Again, my "perverted mind", read this statement altogether wrong, but did manage to correct my error of interpretation, after rereading it. ~~~~~~~ Alvin Whoa, I don't want to ask where you were going with that one Alvin!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 16:51:23 GMT -5
And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand? Unless it leads to them abusing people because of it, I am wondering why I should care about anyone's sexuality? Clearday - I am aware that Jesus said nothing about this (or nothing is recorded that he said on this topic) but do you think that the Old Testament commendments relating to homosexuality give us some insight into the mind of God? Or not ...?
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 17:36:57 GMT -5
Unless it leads to them abusing people because of it, I am wondering why I should care about anyone's sexuality? Clearday - I am aware that Jesus said nothing about this (or nothing is recorded that he said on this topic) but do you think that the Old Testament commendments relating to homosexuality give us some insight into the mind of God? Or not ...? Why oh why are people so determined to cling desperately to a few verses in Leviticus? If God created everything do you really think Homosexuality is a mistake? Men wrote the bible and it definitely reflects their opinion on the subject too!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 18:16:35 GMT -5
Clearday - I am aware that Jesus said nothing about this (or nothing is recorded that he said on this topic) but do you think that the Old Testament commendments relating to homosexuality give us some insight into the mind of God? Or not ...? The Mosaic and Levital laws were primarily legal codes for social order of an ancient culture. The pronouncements against homosexuality were in the same legal codes which prohibited trimming your beard or cutting the hair on the side of your head. You were also prohibited from slaying a cow and its young on the same day. You couldn't sell your land permanently. You could sell a foreigner in a slave trading business however, but could not use Israelites in your slave trading business. You were required to pay your employees daily. You couldn't attend church for 33 days after giving birth to a boy, 66 days after giving birth to a girl. You couldn't eat prawns or scallops or oysters. No eating fat. One fabric only in your clothes. If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles Stubborn children were to be stoned, and the stoning was to be instigated by their parents A rape victim must marry the rapist. So no, it doesn't give us much insight into the mind of God, if any. It does give us insight into an ancient culture which had no way of understanding many things including the fact that homosexuals are not homosexuals by choice although I suppose it is possible for a rare few to pervert their minds in that direction. Homosexuality is a fact of life and whatever two consenting adults do should be no business of mine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 21:59:59 GMT -5
Quote - "Oh good lord. Who needs Bert's favorite show, five and a half men, when we have Bert for entertainment?" ha ha ha !!!!! Isn't that TWO and a half men? Is it possible that one day a "two and a half men" show will be about two gays and a "gay boy" * Such a moral leap is not as great as the one from the days of "I Dream of Jeannie" to Two and a half men." And I believe this leap will be inevitable. * pre-adult homosexual male for those who don't know. And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand? No Snow, give or take a generation and you won't have a comedy about two gays raising a straight, innocent boy. That will be like people today watching Leave it to Beaver or Bewitched. Too tame. You will have a comedy about a GAY BOY who is probably making advances on his own two fathers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 22:00:47 GMT -5
XNA
What's the harm? A site is worth visiting... whatstheharm.net
Thanks, that is one of the best sites I have ever seen.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2014 22:33:22 GMT -5
And explain to me why two gay men cannot raise a gay child or heterosexual child quite adequately? All it takes is love, guidance, compassion and commonsense. You know, kind of like heterosexual couples raising children? There are such families that exist, why not have a show about them. I can't believe that people are still so stuck that they can't allow people to be who they are in regards to their sexuality? Why is this so hard to understand? No Snow, give or take a generation and you won't have a comedy about two gays raising a straight, innocent boy. That will be like people today watching Leave it to Beaver or Bewitched. Too tame. You will have a comedy about a GAY BOY who is probably making advances on his own two fathers.ok then. There's not much anyone can add to this. You have a very interesting view of humans.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 22:54:30 GMT -5
No Snow, give or take a generation and you won't have a comedy about two gays raising a straight, innocent boy. That will be like people today watching Leave it to Beaver or Bewitched. Too tame. You will have a comedy about a GAY BOY who is probably making advances on his own two fathers.ok then. There's not much anyone can add to this. You have a very interesting view of humans. Why in the world would a heterosexual man make sexual advances on his fathers? This is a nutty idea. I suppose that could happen in a fictional comedy like Bert's favourite show: Two and a Half Men. Fantasy, it appears, has replaced reality.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2014 22:56:05 GMT -5
actually he said a GAY BOY would make the advances on his own fathers...
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