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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 6:01:50 GMT -5
I would prefer to say "I believe in Jesus - his sacrifice, his payment for my sins, my righteousness before God because he lived the perfect life of obedience that I cannot."
It greatly concerns me that your answer doesn't seem to have much room for Jesus himself.
My denomination doesn't matter. The particular church where I choose to worship doesn't matter - because they prefer to always point to Jesus, not to themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 6:11:14 GMT -5
Quote - "I would prefer to say "I believe in Jesus - his sacrifice, his payment for my sins, my righteousness before God because he lived the perfect life of obedience that I cannot." That is right and fine. But with a statement must come its interpretation into worship. JW's and Mormons say the same, but I cannot accept their worship.
Quote - "It greatly concerns me that your answer doesn't seem to have much room for Jesus himself." The term "Gospel" means "good news" but we all understand it to mean "good news of Jesus Christ."
Quote - "My denomination doesn't matter. The particular church where I choose to worship doesn't matter - because they prefer to always point to Jesus, not to themselves." Solomon also believed in your ecumenical outlook. Christ's way is a Narrow way and many, though content with what Jesus DID, are not happy with much of Jesus actually SAID.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 6:31:09 GMT -5
Actually, the JWs and Mormons do NOT give this message. In fact, they are almost identical to the 2x2s in their beliefs:
- They pay lip service to believing in Jesus, BUT ... you must also believe in their way, ministry, format as the only true way; - They deny that Jesus is God; - They all popped up around the same time (late 1800s), with founding prophets who were eventually proven to be false (made false prophecies, as per the Biblical standard of a false prophet).
I am well aware that Gospel means Good News. What IS the good news? That we have to try and be as good as Jesus? That's very bad news, as none of us can possibly do it. How then, can we have any kind of assurance of having salvation? Or do we have to continue to be "try hards" with no assurance?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 6:54:01 GMT -5
Quote - "Actually, the JWs and Mormons do NOT give this message. In fact, they are almost identical to the 2x2s in their beliefs:" That's guilt by association.
Quote - "They pay lip service to believing in Jesus, BUT ... you must also believe in their way, ministry, format as the only true way;" Correct me if I am wrong but Mormons send young guys on "ministry" for several years. These guys, chosen for their looks, have to pay their own way. JW's have this strange "witnessing" where they do a part time door knock, handing out literature. This is in part an acknowledgement of Jesus' commandment regards Ministry, and its a whole lot more faithful to scripture than the Catholic and Orthodox OT ideas about priests, altars and temples.
Quote - "They deny that Jesus is God;" If you mean "trinity" that's a subject in itself. The Mormons are sensitive to that allegation and have sought to introduce more Jesus into their name and liturgy.
Quote - They all popped up around the same time (late 1800s), with founding prophets who were eventually proven to be false (made false prophecies, as per the Biblical standard of a false prophet). That's guilt by association again. I am in no doubt that many cultures and many generations have seen people living and preaching as scripture mandated.
Quote - I am well aware that Gospel means Good News. What IS the good news? That we have to try and be as good as Jesus? That's very bad news, as none of us can possibly do it. How then, can we have any kind of assurance of having salvation? Or do we have to continue to be "try hards" with no assurance?" We can be LIKE Jesus. We have "strong hope" of salvation, but we know Judgement begins in the house of God. The "Way is narrow", it is "bearing of the cross", it involves "rejection of the world" --- these are the things Jesus spoke of. I often say here that people can get a "red letter bible" and just focus on those red words alone - they give a very serious dimension to Jesus, with half of everything He said being warning, admonition, judgement, commandment, threat, partiality, testings and the like. As one Worker put it, "Jesus means what he said."
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 7:36:11 GMT -5
I'll stand with Romans 5:10 on this one: "For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"
We are already reconciled with God through the death of Jesus (the punishment for our sins was on him). How much more shall be we saved through his life (which is perfect), credited to us?
"Strong hope"? or "Certain hope"? If we trust only in Jesus, our hope can be nothing but certain. If we trust in anything else man-centred, then yes, we have some cause for concern.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 7:41:11 GMT -5
And probably a long way off thread topic here, Bert, but why no full name/picture identifying yourself? If you really believe everything you profess to on this forum, why not really stand behind it as who you really are?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 7:47:20 GMT -5
We need to stand behind ALL scripture. A lot of it isn't pleasant - please don't blame people who preach this also. Our salvation is secure IF we endure to the end. We are warned of many who don't endure to the end. The Gospel with either break us, or grind us to powder. Is the profile image your's? You are attractive. mine is just about what I look like! Over the years I have had all sorts of images here. Don't bother anymore.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 7:57:03 GMT -5
Yep, that's me. The image is not so much the point, but who you actually are. Surname? Location? I presume Australian due to times you're online?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 7:57:15 GMT -5
Yep, that's me. The image is not so much the point, but who you actually are. Surname? Location? I presume Australian due to times you're online?
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timber
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Post by timber on Apr 5, 2014 7:59:34 GMT -5
The following is from an article I found on catholic.net The author is Lorraine Espenhain. Many well-meaning Christians are making the mistake of believing that they are accepted by God the Father on the basis of what they have chosen to give up for Him, rather than on Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. Whether they want to accept this truth or not, this is a subtle ploy from the evil one to get them to put confidence in their flesh, instead of the righteousness of Christ.
If I believe that I am accepted and loved by God as long as I avoid cosmetics, jewelry, and embrace teetotalism, then Christ died for me in vain. If staying away from a television set, movie theater, deck of cards, or hair salon will keep my name written in Heaven, I believe in another Gospel other than the Gospel which Paul preached.
If a minister can stand behind a pulpit and teach people that in order to be saved they need to adhere to his personal convictions, is he any less of a ‘dog’ or ‘evil-worker’ than the legalistic Jews were who existed in Paul’s day? Would Paul have spared these leaders if he lived in our day? I tell you, he would not. Paul was not afraid to expose such leaders in the churches and neither am I.
Anyone who preaches acceptance with God on the basis of anything other than the redemptive work of Christ on Calvary is a false teacher. Any church leader who adds to that redemptive work is just as much a dog or evil-worker as those were who lived in Paul's day.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 8:00:21 GMT -5
Yes Australia - Melb and Sydney Time zone - confusion reigns, its the end of daylight savings tonight and my body can't tell if its 12 o'clock or 11 o'clock. Gotta go. ps that profile "Never give power over an individual to a person who doesn't have to answer for his actions" I hope it isn't a dig at anyone in particular because we ALL are answerable for our actions.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 8:06:15 GMT -5
The following is from an article I found on catholic.net The author is Lorraine Espenhain. Many well-meaning Christians are making the mistake of believing that they are accepted by God the Father on the basis of what they have chosen to give up for Him, rather than on Christ’s redemptive work on the cross. Whether they want to accept this truth or not, this is a subtle ploy from the evil one to get them to put confidence in their flesh, instead of the righteousness of Christ. If I believe that I am accepted and loved by God as long as I avoid cosmetics, jewelry, and embrace teetotalism, then Christ died for me in vain. If staying away from a television set, movie theater, deck of cards, or hair salon will keep my name written in Heaven, I believe in another Gospel other than the Gospel which Paul preached. If a minister can stand behind a pulpit and teach people that in order to be saved they need to adhere to his personal convictions, is he any less of a ‘dog’ or ‘evil-worker’ than the legalistic Jews were who existed in Paul’s day? Would Paul have spared these leaders if he lived in our day? I tell you, he would not. Paul was not afraid to expose such leaders in the churches and neither am I. Anyone who preaches acceptance with God on the basis of anything other than the redemptive work of Christ on Calvary is a false teacher. Any church leader who adds to that redemptive work is just as much a dog or evil-worker as those were who lived in Paul's day. And this is why people don't like to take on board Jesus' sayings, or Paul's writings or what Jude said when it is to the contrary of the people like Espenhain. If you are not prepared for the cross, the suffering, the rejection, the daily trials, the offense and everything these men mentioned then you will not have the grace of Christ. That's there in black and white. We have the record from the entire bible of people who obeyed and laid down their lives, and of sad people who didn't.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 8:21:54 GMT -5
We need to stand behind ALL scripture. A lot of it isn't pleasant - please don't blame people who preach this also. Our salvation is secure IF we endure to the end. We are warned of many who don't endure to the end. The Gospel with either break us, or grind us to powder. Yes, very late sorry, way past my bed time too. It's about 11.15pm now if you've already turned your clock back. Thanks for the chat. One last thought to leave you with for another time - if we endure to the end, etc. (as above), fair enough. And all that you've written in the last post. Bearing in mind all that, Bert, where do you stand right now? If you died tonight in your sleep where would you stand? Counting everything up until bedtime tonight. Have you endured to the end? Been obedient enough? Had enough suffering, daily trials, persecution and offense to have saved you? Do you go to bed TONIGHT knowing you have full assurance of salvation because of everything you have done up until the end of today?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 21:15:11 GMT -5
Quote - "One last thought to leave you with for another time - if we endure to the end, etc. (as above), fair enough. And all that you've written in the last post. Bearing in mind all that, Bert, where do you stand right now? If you died tonight in your sleep where would you stand? Counting everything up until bedtime tonight. Have you endured to the end? Been obedient enough? Had enough suffering, daily trials, persecution and offense to have saved you? Do you go to bed TONIGHT knowing you have full assurance of salvation because of everything you have done up until the end of today?"
Difficult question. We can have "strong hope" of salvation. And yes, we fail every day. And ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. But keep within the will of God - give Him of your time, your love, your will.
Works don't save us, only Christ's redeeming blood. But all who will avail themselves of God's saving grace must be found doing His will. And His will is "not grievous." And we must separate ourselves from the things of our flesh and the world.
But if you have worn a hair shirt, so to speak - struggled against all manner of human desires every day --- that won't save you because you are just showing God where your appetite really lies.
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Post by fixit on Apr 5, 2014 22:28:44 GMT -5
And we must separate ourselves from the things of our flesh and the world. That would probably mean changing the kind of TV program you watch Bert.
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Post by fred on Apr 5, 2014 23:07:36 GMT -5
Now here is f&w teaching in a nutshell. Folks always say "No, we do NOT believe in salvation by works", and will then go on to point out that we must be doing God's will in order to earn his saving grace. In my eyes this is a contradiction.
Jesus came to save sinners and God's saving grace was freely given to them, justifying them as righteous in His sight before even one righteous deed.
These true believers will be found doing his will as this is the result of a renewed heart.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 5, 2014 23:46:15 GMT -5
"Works don't save us ... But ..." (you also need to do and try and be...) This is like saying "Here's a gift, but... I'd still like you to pay me back for it eventually".
Romans 3:20-22 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Bert, let me make clear I am not disputing your statements about "doing God's will" as you put it. All true believers will show fruit in their lives, or they are not true believers. But the lives of believers are lived in obedience to God out of thankfulness and love, not because they believe that their own efforts will still somehow count to their own salvation. Any effort of our own that we think contributes to our salvation is a smack in the face to Christ's sacrifice as not quite measuring up to paying the full price for our sins. (Thanks, Jesus, that's nice, but surely my efforts still get counted in). Rather, our actions to live godly lives should be expressed as "Lord, you have made full payment. I know I can never repay you. I can only seek to live in obedience to show how much I really love you." The first response is about still trying to justify ourselves. The second response is made in complete humility that we know we will never be worthy, but Christ has saved us anyway. Past tense. The tense in which it is expressed in the Bible.
Note that none of this involves some technicality (law) over what roof is over our head when we meet together to worship God (church building? barn roof? private home? stars?). We will not get extra points for something this trivial. Because extra points are not needed. Praise God that the sacrifice of Christ is already all sufficient.
I like that you are willing to discuss these issues. I'll never get tired of talking about what Christ has done for me! :-)
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Apr 6, 2014 0:13:31 GMT -5
Now here is f&w teaching in a nutshell. Folks always say "No, we do NOT believe in salvation by works", and will then go on to point out that we must be doing God's will in order to earn his saving grace. In my eyes this is a contradiction. Jesus came to save sinners and God's saving grace was freely given to them, justifying them as righteous in His sight before even one righteous deed. These true believers will be found doing his will as this is the result of a renewed heart. Good works, are results of Salvation. Jesus said, "Let your light so shine BEFORE men, that they may SEE your good works! and glorify your Father who is in heaven." Jesus also said, "Ye are the Salt of the earth. Don't hide your lights under the bed. Let it shines forth."No argument there, NathanB! I presume then, that you accept as your full brothers and sisters in Christ, ALL who believe in Christ for their full salvation and know their good works are only the result of salvation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 4:19:34 GMT -5
Re "Saint" Paul. Some, nay many, discount Paul's writings as legalisms. Some even say people who followed his epistles were "Paulites." Some have written books claiming Paul wrestled the church away from Jesus' own family and its Jewish heritage, and returned to the Law - and that is where being "saved by works" come from.
I am going through every one of the epistles, counting works vs. non-works verses. For Paul about 50% of his writings is works based.
I am doing the same for the Gospels. It's a sobering that about half of what Jesus said was works based. I understand now that the churches focus upon what Jesus DID, more than what Jesus SAID.
ie His atoning sacrifice, his care for the sick, his love of children etc..
People on the TMB often quote from "grace-based" religious books. Which are inclined to overlook what Jesus said. I find these books offensive. "Saved by grace alone" is not what Jesus taught.
Mostly, what Jesus said offended the Jews, not what He did. Mostly, what Jesus said still offends people today.
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Post by fixit on Apr 6, 2014 4:58:56 GMT -5
Bert, you might be on to something with the "grace" books.
I've often wondered where it came from.
The following scripture comes to mind...
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Post by fred on Apr 6, 2014 5:39:15 GMT -5
One thing you can't fault Bert with is that he says what he thinks!
One thing I do fault about his thinking is that he seems to fail to process what other people say - he loves to build strawmen and then the tear them down. For example, I do not know anyone who believes in 'saved by grace' that would think for one moment that this excuses them from having a changed life evidenced by works commanded by God. Bert has been told this on numerous occasions yet persists in believing otherwise.
There is one of my favourite 'saved by grace' books that I love to read - I guess Bert finds it offensive ...... it's called The Holy Bible.
So now I'm waiting for Bert to change my understanding, that this is not what is taught in the Bible. I'm open to clear teaching, but at this stage I believe there is no other way.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 5:46:42 GMT -5
Plenty here believe they are saved by grace alone, and other than not doing criminal acts, feel that is all which is required of them. Some even say church itself is superfluous.
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Post by fred on Apr 6, 2014 5:59:22 GMT -5
Plenty here believe they are saved by grace alone, and other than not doing criminal acts, feel that is all which is required of them. Some even say church itself is superfluous. Perhaps you could name some of them, so we can find out what they really believe and get this cleared up once and for all?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2014 6:45:32 GMT -5
That will take a seriously long time. Better do a poll. Word it carefully so it isn't political.
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Post by fred on Apr 6, 2014 6:58:16 GMT -5
That will take a seriously long time. Better do a poll. Word it carefully so it isn't political. I thought so.
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 7:20:34 GMT -5
I know someone here in NSW (ex 2x2) who has been approached to do an interview on this show. Will be filmed sometime next week... Open mind ~ I guess the 2x2's must be currently considered after all among these "extreme organizations or cults", if an ex-member from NSW has been invited to an interview on this particular show? That would be very interesting to watch on April 8th. Perhaps somebody from this area could provide us with a link to that TV broadcast in Australia?
Cherie shared previously...
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Post by faune on Apr 6, 2014 8:23:08 GMT -5
It's actually quite remarkable to see how much paranoia exists about "which side" people are on. I suspect Hoa is as much on their side as Chau but they are unable to see it or even believe that it is possible. Yes, I used to get amused at the answer from workers "if they (ie another church) were right we would be in fellowship with them....". It reminds me of the huge sign above the stage at Katoomba Christian Convention - west of Sydney which houses numerous conventions every year. It simply says "All One in Christ Jesus".Ross ~ That sign just reminds me of I Corinthians 3:16 ~ the answer that Paul gave to the Church in Corinth, who were beginning to set up divisions within the body of Christ according to who ministered to them. Paul reminded them that what makes up the body of Christ, or the Church, is dependent upon receiving the transforming power of the Holy Spirit within which unites Christians as "All One in Christ Jesus." This reality is also connected to the "true gospel message" which points people to Jesus Christ and not some method or pattern of worship like you see within the 2x2's, which you must accept without question to be saved.
biblehub.com/1_corinthians/3-16.htm (I Corinthians 3:16)
www.gotquestions.org/true-gospel.html (True Gospel Message)
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Post by What Hat on Apr 6, 2014 12:46:35 GMT -5
We need to stand behind ALL scripture. A lot of it isn't pleasant - please don't blame people who preach this also. Our salvation is secure IF we endure to the end. We are warned of many who don't endure to the end. The Gospel with either break us, or grind us to powder. Yes, very late sorry, way past my bed time too. It's about 11.15pm now if you've already turned your clock back. Thanks for the chat. One last thought to leave you with for another time - if we endure to the end, etc. (as above), fair enough. And all that you've written in the last post. Bearing in mind all that, Bert, where do you stand right now? If you died tonight in your sleep where would you stand? Counting everything up until bedtime tonight. Have you endured to the end? Been obedient enough? Had enough suffering, daily trials, persecution and offense to have saved you? Do you go to bed TONIGHT knowing you have full assurance of salvation because of everything you have done up until the end of today? Do you think in all probability that someone who doesn't accept the redemptive sacrifice of God's Son, will burn in eternal Hell? Just curious because you haven't mentioned it.
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