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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 22, 2014 21:09:17 GMT -5
the father does this: Rom_12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Well, children couldn't avenge themselves very well could they?
How much good is it going to do the children that are killed if the Lord just takes "vengeance" after the children are dead?
Doesn't matter very much what is written, does it?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2014 22:04:56 GMT -5
its matters if you believe in God cause its a promise from him to us, you know the whole heaven hell thing...
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Post by faune on Mar 22, 2014 22:16:06 GMT -5
Gene ~ Perhaps they tried to warn the people and they didn't listen or were distracted? Therefore, the need for clean-up duty? Also, humans have free choice, so that might have messed up the works, too? faune, that's just justification for why bad things happen I think. Same with God. He allows children to get AIDS yet he is all loving and all powerful and all merciful. It is what it is, no angels are actually needed imo. Nor a God for that matter. In my experience there hasn't been much help from any of them. If these people had died would you still think an angel was involved? Maybe one was there but couldn't do anything? See it's that kind of stuff that turns me even further away from the belief in god and angels and the like. No proof and the only time they get credit is when people live. Snow ~ I have been looking for a good explanation for why all these bad things happen to good people, and I must admit, I could not find one apologist's response that would do justice to this subject. However, I'm personally reminded of a verse from John 16:33 that basically brings out that Jesus did not promise a "rose garden" to people who would believe in Him and follow Him. Instead Jesus told them they would endure "tribulation" or distress within this world, but the peace that He would give them as believers would help them to "endure" these sufferings in life until they would one day stand triumphant with Jesus in His eternal Kingdom. What would keep them through all these trials and temptations would be this peace of God, which passes all human understanding.
I have lost some dear friends to battles with terminal cancer who were believers in God. One thing I remember from their life was that peace in their countenance which they possessed through all the pain they endured from that disease. They had a strength within due to God's presence which helped them to face whatever this old world threw at them in troubles, distresses, and ill health. They faced it courageously with faith in their heart, because of their belief in Jesus' promise shown below. They looked forward to an afterlife where there would be no sorrow, no pain, and no suffering. They had some hard things to endure in this life, but their faith was triumphant in the end. That same peace imparted by the Holy Spirit when they first believed, gave them the strength to face whatever life sent their way until this life finally came to a close. Their faith in God was the "anchor" of their soul and they held fast to it until the very end. In summary, perhaps it's this peace of God which helps us triumph over tribulations is all we are actually promised in this life? JMT
biblehub.com/john/16-33.htm
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Post by snow on Mar 23, 2014 10:58:45 GMT -5
faune, that's just justification for why bad things happen I think. Same with God. He allows children to get AIDS yet he is all loving and all powerful and all merciful. It is what it is, no angels are actually needed imo. Nor a God for that matter. In my experience there hasn't been much help from any of them. If these people had died would you still think an angel was involved? Maybe one was there but couldn't do anything? See it's that kind of stuff that turns me even further away from the belief in god and angels and the like. No proof and the only time they get credit is when people live. Snow ~ I have been looking for a good explanation for why all these bad things happen to good people, and I must admit, I could not find one apologist's response that would do justice to this subject. However, I'm personally reminded of a verse from John 16:33 that basically brings out that Jesus did not promise a "rose garden" to people who would believe in Him and follow Him. Instead Jesus told them they would endure "tribulation" or distress within this world, but the peace that He would give them as believers would help them to "endure" these sufferings in life until they would one day stand triumphant with Jesus in His eternal Kingdom. What would keep them through all these trials and temptations would be this peace of God, which passes all human understanding.
I have lost some dear friends to battles with terminal cancer who were believers in God. One thing I remember from their life was that peace in their countenance which they possessed through all the pain they endured from that disease. They had a strength within due to God's presence which helped them to face whatever this old world threw at them in troubles, distresses, and ill health. They faced it courageously with faith in their heart, because of their belief in Jesus' promise shown below. They looked forward to an afterlife where there would be no sorrow, no pain, and no suffering. They had some hard things to endure in this life, but their faith was triumphant in the end. That same peace imparted by the Holy Spirit when they first believed, gave them the strength to face whatever life sent their way until this life finally came to a close. Their faith in God was the "anchor" of their soul and they held fast to it until the very end. In summary, perhaps it's this peace of God which helps us triumph over tribulations is all we are actually promised in this life? JMT
biblehub.com/john/16-33.htm
faune, hope is one thing that brings peace. All good leaders know that if they can provide hope to their followers that they will believe a whole lot easier and follow more loyally. Life is hard. Anything that promises an escape from that brings hope. That is why I see belief in god as being a comfort for some people because it gives them hope for something more than what they now have. However, for me it doesn't bring me hope because it would be false hope. Not much comfort can be derived from something I can't believe to be true. So, while I understand why people want to believe in God and a better life to come, I personally don't believe. However, I also don't believe that anyone needs to believe in God for everything to be alright. I don't worry about hell or heaven for that matter.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2014 14:21:51 GMT -5
its matters if you believe in God cause its a promise from him to us, ..... That is just the whole point! You said "for it is written"!
How can you "believe in someone (god or anyone) who makes a promise but doesn't deliver on that promise?
Does it matter whether "it is written," or not?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 14:28:17 GMT -5
Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled...
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 23, 2014 15:01:13 GMT -5
Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled... My, what a great comfort that must be for the little children as they lie dying!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 15:08:04 GMT -5
it can be a great comfort if you believe if you don't believe then this verse you may draw comfort from...
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2014 15:12:39 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Apr 1, 2014 11:58:50 GMT -5
have you ever had an experience with a guardian Angel? No Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2014 13:12:34 GMT -5
it can be a great comfort if you believe if you don't believe then this verse you may draw comfort from... 1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Note:
my answer, "My, what a great comfort that must be for the little children as they lie dying!" concerning any comfort would they get from your statement.:
"Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled..."
Now you have given children yet another " great comfort" while they are dying! You are all heart.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 1, 2014 16:40:26 GMT -5
it can be a great comfort if you believe if you don't believe then this verse you may draw comfort from... 1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. Note:
my answer, "My, what a great comfort that must be for the little children as they lie dying!" concerning any comfort would they get from your statement.:
"Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled..."
Now you have given children yet another " great comfort" while they are dying! You are all heart.
What do you feel would be some comforting words for children that are dying? I understand quoting some bible verses can be VERY inappropriate at certain times. I remember , a pastor, who had been severely injured and was laying in the hospital,who was NOT comforted at all and found it offensive and hurtful, when one of his well intentioned visitors ,quoted the scripture "all things work together..... for them that love the Lord'.... NOT a comfort to him for that time. Alvin
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2014 23:58:20 GMT -5
Note:
my answer, "My, what a great comfort that must be for the little children as they lie dying!" concerning any comfort would they get from your statement.:
"Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled..."
Now you have given children yet another " great comfort" while they are dying! You are all heart.
What do you feel would be some comforting words for children that are dying? I understand quoting some bible verses can be VERY inappropriate at certain times. I remember , a pastor, who had been severely injured and was laying in the hospital,who was NOT comforted at all and found it offensive and hurtful, when one of his well intentioned visitors ,quoted the scripture "all things work together..... for them that love the Lord'.... NOT a comfort to him for that time. Alvin LOL Alvin, that is so true. When I was in labor with my first child, one of the nurses sat down beside me and started telling me about the verses in the bible about why women had labor pains. Trust me, I was not amused after already going through 12 hours of heavy labor. Her Eve story was not comforting!!
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 2, 2014 13:45:17 GMT -5
lol- Agreed, not much comfort, but at least she didn't quote the following verses to you at that time, after all, it was your "fault" for being pregnant in the first place, sobriety and all ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ,oh oh , maybe she did...... sick. Remember, things are never so bad that ,somehow, I can't make you feel even worse, idea. Sadly, I have inadvertently been guilty of that also. Apologies to anyone I have so effected. Alvin
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2014 18:44:56 GMT -5
To answer your question there were angels in that van with me that day. I felt them and I heard them. Angels did that to your van? What did you do to make them angry?Sounds like the credit should go to the manufacturer of the van and their engineering skills that prevented the collapse of the van. And the seat belt/restraint system.
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2014 19:01:57 GMT -5
Seems like these angels have a habit of showing up late on the job. A little more pep in their step, and they could prevent these accidents from happening in the first place, instead of always being on clean-up duty. Gene ~ Perhaps they tried to warn the people and they didn't listen or were distracted? Therefore, the need for clean-up duty? ;) Also, humans have free choice, so that might have messed up the works, too? Perhaps the distraction of angels in the van was the cause.
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2014 20:22:02 GMT -5
lol- Agreed, not much comfort, but at least she didn't quote the following verses to you at that time, after all, it was your "fault" for being pregnant in the first place, sobriety and all ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ,oh oh , maybe she did...... sick. Remember, things are never so bad that ,somehow, I can't make you feel even worse, idea. Sadly, I have inadvertently been guilty of that also. Apologies to anyone I have so effected. Alvin And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety Alvin I tuned her out as best I could. She was a strange one for sure.
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Post by faune on Apr 2, 2014 21:16:15 GMT -5
Snow ~ I have been looking for a good explanation for why all these bad things happen to good people, and I must admit, I could not find one apologist's response that would do justice to this subject. However, I'm personally reminded of a verse from John 16:33 that basically brings out that Jesus did not promise a "rose garden" to people who would believe in Him and follow Him. Instead Jesus told them they would endure "tribulation" or distress within this world, but the peace that He would give them as believers would help them to "endure" these sufferings in life until they would one day stand triumphant with Jesus in His eternal Kingdom. What would keep them through all these trials and temptations would be this peace of God, which passes all human understanding.
I have lost some dear friends to battles with terminal cancer who were believers in God. One thing I remember from their life was that peace in their countenance which they possessed through all the pain they endured from that disease. They had a strength within due to God's presence which helped them to face whatever this old world threw at them in troubles, distresses, and ill health. They faced it courageously with faith in their heart, because of their belief in Jesus' promise shown below. They looked forward to an afterlife where there would be no sorrow, no pain, and no suffering. They had some hard things to endure in this life, but their faith was triumphant in the end. That same peace imparted by the Holy Spirit when they first believed, gave them the strength to face whatever life sent their way until this life finally came to a close. Their faith in God was the "anchor" of their soul and they held fast to it until the very end. In summary, perhaps it's this peace of God which helps us triumph over tribulations is all we are actually promised in this life? JMT
biblehub.com/john/16-33.htm
faune, hope is one thing that brings peace. All good leaders know that if they can provide hope to their followers that they will believe a whole lot easier and follow more loyally. Life is hard. Anything that promises an escape from that brings hope. That is why I see belief in god as being a comfort for some people because it gives them hope for something more than what they now have. However, for me it doesn't bring me hope because it would be false hope. Not much comfort can be derived from something I can't believe to be true. So, while I understand why people want to believe in God and a better life to come, I personally don't believe. However, I also don't believe that anyone needs to believe in God for everything to be alright. I don't worry about hell or heaven for that matter. Snow ~ One thing I have noticed in all religious beliefs are their pet phrases for thing that just don't work out as planned. However, if belief in guardian angels or Jesus looking out for them gives them peace, hope, comfort, and strength to go on in a times of trial and hardship, it really does a person no harm ~ in fact, it lightens their load. Perhaps for many Christians it's really during these difficult times that their faith becomes an anchor for their souls and keeps them emotionally balanced. I feel my faith has done that for me more times than I can count, which is why I still believe in God and divine intervention.
Also, I agree with you that people don't need to believe in God for everything to be alright. It just helps to keep positively focused regardless what we do believe in when calamity comes our way so as we can weather the storm successfully. As far as an afterlife in Heaven or Hell, I guess we won't find out about its existence until we pass from this mortal coil? In the meantime, I guess we can focus on making each day count for something worthwhile and being loving and caring in our actions towards others. I like the picture we get of Heaven in Revelation 21. It seems like a beautiful place described here where one can leave their pains and cares behind! I might even learn to play the harp there ~ an instrument I've always have enjoyed listening to for relaxation. However, as I read over this chapter again, I just noticed something I missed before. This chapter is speaking about the "holy city of Jerusalem" descending out of heaven from God. Perhaps this is a picture of "heaven on earth" as Jesus taught in the Lord's Prayer he taught His disciples to pray? Maybe this Lord's Prayer concerned Jesus' return to earth and his 1,000 year millennial reign? No doubt the earth will be a mess after Armageddon, unless it's regenerated again much like in the O.T. account of Noah's flood? This New Jerusalem even has physical dimensions according to the description given here. Now that's something to think about, eh?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+21
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 2, 2014 21:43:26 GMT -5
Note:
my answer, "My, what a great comfort that must be for the little children as they lie dying!" concerning any comfort would they get from your statement.:
"Gods promises come at his own time not ours so his promise of vengence will definitly come by the end so it is fullfilled..."
Now you have given children yet another " great comfort" while they are dying! You are all heart.
What do you feel would be some comforting words for children that are dying? I understand quoting some bible verses can be VERY inappropriate at certain times. I remember , a pastor, who had been severely injured and was laying in the hospital,who was NOT comforted at all and found it offensive and hurtful, when one of his well intentioned visitors ,quoted the scripture "all things work together..... for them that love the Lord'.... NOT a comfort to him for that time. Alvin I was answering a couple of wally's quotes .
Try to imagine a small child has been shot & is dying and is told that, "Gods promises come at his own time not ours, so his promise of vengeance (against the person that shot the child ) will come by the end".
Can you honestly think that would be any comfort to a dying child that the a god will take vengeance on the one that shot him/her, but it will just come "in god's own time?"
Now how this quote below would ever even make sense to a dying child to begin with completely evades me, to think that it would be any comfort to them (or to any adult for that matter) also evades me!
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 2, 2014 22:24:51 GMT -5
What do you feel would be some comforting words for children that are dying? I understand quoting some bible verses can be VERY inappropriate at certain times. I remember , a pastor, who had been severely injured and was laying in the hospital,who was NOT comforted at all and found it offensive and hurtful, when one of his well intentioned visitors ,quoted the scripture "all things work together..... for them that love the Lord'.... NOT a comfort to him for that time. Alvin I was answering a couple of wally's quotes .
Try to imagine a small child has been shot & is dying and is told that, "Gods promises come at his own time not ours, so his promise of vengeance (against the person that shot the child ) will come by the end".
Can you honestly think that would be any comfort to a dying child that the a god will take vengeance on the one that shot him/her, but it will just come "in god's own time?"
Now how this quote below would ever even make sense to a dying child to begin with completely evades me, to think that it would be any comfort to them (or to any adult for that matter) also evades me!
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
I don't understand how that would be a comfort either, dmmichgood. Maybe Wally could explain? I have been with people ,dying , but never with a young child, so I don't know what a person could say to be a comfort, really. It sure would be easy to say things that would NOT be a comfort, I'm sure, even with good intentions. Alvin
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 2, 2014 22:39:45 GMT -5
lol- Agreed, not much comfort, but at least she didn't quote the following verses to you at that time, after all, it was your "fault" for being pregnant in the first place, sobriety and all ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ,oh oh , maybe she did...... sick. Remember, things are never so bad that ,somehow, I can't make you feel even worse, idea. Sadly, I have inadvertently been guilty of that also. Apologies to anyone I have so effected. Alvin And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety So you believe that Eve is the one that is at fault for man's fall?
It's hard for me to believe that there are still people out there who believes that!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 22:45:50 GMT -5
I was answering a couple of wally's quotes .
Try to imagine a small child has been shot & is dying and is told that, "Gods promises come at his own time not ours, so his promise of vengeance (against the person that shot the child ) will come by the end".
Can you honestly think that would be any comfort to a dying child that the a god will take vengeance on the one that shot him/her, but it will just come "in god's own time?"
Now how this quote below would ever even make sense to a dying child to begin with completely evades me, to think that it would be any comfort to them (or to any adult for that matter) also evades me!
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
I don't understand how that would be a comfort either, dmmichgood. Maybe Wally could explain? I have been with people ,dying , but never with a young child, so I don't know what a person could say to be a comfort, really. It sure would be easy to say things that would NOT be a comfort, I'm sure, even with good intentions. Alvin the premise was there could be no verse that comforts someone who is dying and i facetiously replied to dmmichgood that she could maybe take some comfort in that verse(since shes an atheist)
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 2, 2014 22:47:59 GMT -5
No, read again. Are there people who really believe that it is the fault of "woman" for the "fall of man" ? I admit, it is surprising , sometimes at the attitudes of "prejudice" out there towards women. A while ago, one of the girls at the place our farm does business with, who is extraordinarily talented and capable, was chided by an older male driver of a truck for her even working at such a facility , and he refused to allow her to load his truck. Even so, I doubt he blames "women" for the fall of man, but it might explain his "single" status, as far as marriage goes. To top it off, I don't think he is religious at all , so can't blame on that , can we ? Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 2, 2014 22:50:38 GMT -5
I don't understand how that would be a comfort either, dmmichgood. Maybe Wally could explain? I have been with people ,dying , but never with a young child, so I don't know what a person could say to be a comfort, really. It sure would be easy to say things that would NOT be a comfort, I'm sure, even with good intentions. Alvin the premise was there could be no verse that comforts someone who is dying and i facetiously replied to dmmichgood that she could maybe take some comfort in that verse(since shes an atheist) Thanks , Wally. Do you or anyone have a thought on what would be a comfort to a dying child? I can't think of anything right now, but probably at the time required and depending on circumstances, maybe...... ? Alvin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2014 23:00:58 GMT -5
No, read again. Are there people who really believe that it is the fault of "woman" for the "fall of man" ? Alvin thier both to blame eve did her sin out of being convinced to sin and adam did his sin deliberatly knowing full well he should not eat of the fruit
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Post by rational on Apr 2, 2014 23:18:41 GMT -5
I have been with people ,dying , but never with a young child, so I don't know what a person could say to be a comfort, really. You need to define young child. There is a vast difference between s 3-year old and a 7-year old. Does a three year old need to be told anything about death? Do you want to say anything to a 7-tear old about what will happen after death if s/he has been exposed to the possibility of hell if any wrongs have been done? Kids are pretty concrete. Perhaps children at the time of death is not the place for a lot of spirituality.
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Post by faune on Apr 2, 2014 23:41:36 GMT -5
No, read again. Are there people who really believe that it is the fault of "woman" for the "fall of man" ? Alvin thier both to blame eve did her sin out of being convinced to sin and adam did his sin deliberatly knowing full well he should not eat of the fruit Wally ~ Here's a good article on the Fall of mankind. At the conclusion of this article it seems to indicate that Adam is really to blame for original sin entering the world and starting the Fall ~ not his wife, Eve! However, she does get the blunt end of jokes for both, even though the Bible tells us differently in the New Testament. All I can say is that it was real "nervy" of Adam to blame God for giving him Eve and then blame Eve for his own screw-ups!
www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2012/05/29/contradictions-blame-for-original-sin-adam-or-eve
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 2, 2014 23:48:19 GMT -5
I have been with people ,dying , but never with a young child, so I don't know what a person could say to be a comfort, really. You need to define young child. There is a vast difference between s 3-year old and a 7-year old. Does a three year old need to be told anything about death? Do you want to say anything to a 7-tear old about what will happen after death if s/he has been exposed to the possibility of hell if any wrongs have been done? Kids are pretty concrete. Perhaps children at the time of death is not the place for a lot of spirituality. Good points. It seems some children really do want to talk about spirituality, so it depends, I guess. Alvin
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