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Post by fixit on Feb 18, 2014 4:59:53 GMT -5
seems like you like to focus on the negative I like to focus on how to rid the fellowship of the negatives.
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2014 11:03:23 GMT -5
We read in the Bible about the faults of others, so why sanitize the meetings to the extent that we're only smoothing one another's egos? This is what Graham said about Victoria: Paul wasn't restricting his message to Jesus and the Father in the following verses: seems like you like to focus on the negative If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it?
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Post by quizzer on Feb 18, 2014 11:13:12 GMT -5
seems like you like to focus on the negative If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? Y'know, snow, we're up against a mulit-faceted problem-solving approach within the 2x2s: 1 - Problem identification: you can't say anything because the 2x2s (particularly the workers) are supposed to be perfect. 2 - Problem solution: There shouldn't be a problem to solve. If there is, then the problem is resolved in the favor of the highest ranking, best connected 2x2. 3 - Problem conclusion: There shouldn't have been a problem identified or resolved, so don't talk about it. Pretend that the problem and especially the problem solution didn't happen. Keep on keeping on. The strangest thing is that it is the ranking of the 2x2s that makes the decisions. For everyday stuff, the 2x2s (and a lot of the junior brother workers and sister workers) believe it's magic because they're not involved. They don't see the decision-making and traditions followed by the senior brother workers. They simply see decisions being made, and they question not. So, they believe that this is a great policy for the rest of the world, especially the elders and friends. The only bump in the road is that the senior brother workers don't like anything that speaks negatively about the meetings or the workers. That's when the decision-making gets nasty, and everybody gets to pretend it's not happening. Fun stuff if you recognize it, but it's a real whammy the first few times around.
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2014 11:53:20 GMT -5
If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? Y'know, snow, we're up against a mulit-faceted problem-solving approach within the 2x2s: 1 - Problem identification: you can't say anything because the 2x2s (particularly the workers) are supposed to be perfect. 2 - Problem solution: There shouldn't be a problem to solve. If there is, then the problem is resolved in the favor of the highest ranking, best connected 2x2. 3 - Problem conclusion: There shouldn't have been a problem identified or resolved, so don't talk about it. Pretend that the problem and especially the problem solution didn't happen. Keep on keeping on. The strangest thing is that it is the ranking of the 2x2s that makes the decisions. For everyday stuff, the 2x2s (and a lot of the junior brother workers and sister workers) believe it's magic because they're not involved. They don't see the decision-making and traditions followed by the senior brother workers. They simply see decisions being made, and they question not. So, they believe that this is a great policy for the rest of the world, especially the elders and friends. The only bump in the road is that the senior brother workers don't like anything that speaks negatively about the meetings or the workers. That's when the decision-making gets nasty, and everybody gets to pretend it's not happening. Fun stuff if you recognize it, but it's a real whammy the first few times around. Not a lot different from having to ignore and put spin on all the bad things God has done either. Since God is perfect, he/she can do no wrong. But when you see all the things this being has done and you see how horrific some of them are, you then have to justify these actions with "God's ways are mysterious". Kind of like the ministry which makes sense because look who they have as a role model?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 16:05:07 GMT -5
seems like you like to focus on the negative If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? what if you just think it's broken from where you are sitting?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 16:08:40 GMT -5
If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? Y'know, snow, we're up against a mulit-faceted problem-solving approach within the 2x2s: 1 - Problem identification: you can't say anything because the 2x2s (particularly the workers) are supposed to be perfect. 2 - Problem solution: There shouldn't be a problem to solve. If there is, then the problem is resolved in the favor of the highest ranking, best connected 2x2. 3 - Problem conclusion: There shouldn't have been a problem identified or resolved, so don't talk about it. Pretend that the problem and especially the problem solution didn't happen. Keep on keeping on. The strangest thing is that it is the ranking of the 2x2s that makes the decisions. For everyday stuff, the 2x2s (and a lot of the junior brother workers and sister workers) believe it's magic because they're not involved. They don't see the decision-making and traditions followed by the senior brother workers. They simply see decisions being made, and they question not. So, they believe that this is a great policy for the rest of the world, especially the elders and friends. The only bump in the road is that the senior brother workers don't like anything that speaks negatively about the meetings or the workers. That's when the decision-making gets nasty, and everybody gets to pretend it's not happening. Fun stuff if you recognize it, but it's a real whammy the first few times around. humans can't live without problems, what would they do ? the problem is whether you try so solve yourself or let God solve it for you
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2014 20:43:06 GMT -5
Y'know, snow, we're up against a mulit-faceted problem-solving approach within the 2x2s: 1 - Problem identification: you can't say anything because the 2x2s (particularly the workers) are supposed to be perfect. 2 - Problem solution: There shouldn't be a problem to solve. If there is, then the problem is resolved in the favor of the highest ranking, best connected 2x2. 3 - Problem conclusion: There shouldn't have been a problem identified or resolved, so don't talk about it. Pretend that the problem and especially the problem solution didn't happen. Keep on keeping on. The strangest thing is that it is the ranking of the 2x2s that makes the decisions. For everyday stuff, the 2x2s (and a lot of the junior brother workers and sister workers) believe it's magic because they're not involved. They don't see the decision-making and traditions followed by the senior brother workers. They simply see decisions being made, and they question not. So, they believe that this is a great policy for the rest of the world, especially the elders and friends. The only bump in the road is that the senior brother workers don't like anything that speaks negatively about the meetings or the workers. That's when the decision-making gets nasty, and everybody gets to pretend it's not happening. Fun stuff if you recognize it, but it's a real whammy the first few times around. humans can't live without problems, what would they do ? the problem is whether you try so solve yourself or let God solve it for you So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2014 21:29:41 GMT -5
humans can't live without problems, what would they do ? the problem is whether you try so solve yourself or let God solve it for you So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything. going by what the human has tried to solve the outlook is bleak
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2014 21:53:58 GMT -5
So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything. going by what the human has tried to solve the outlook is bleak It may be bleak, but it's better than nothing at all.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 19, 2014 0:53:39 GMT -5
So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything. going by what the human has tried to solve the outlook is bleak From my reading of the bible, God calls upon men to solve/deal with problems that are around them. I think that too many of us people make the mistake of thinking that 'God will solve this problem', and they tend to ignore the fact that us Christians are supposed to deal with the problems that come our way. We can pray for help, but we aren't supposed to just sit on our butts and hope someone else is going to miraculously take care of the problems.... If God was always going to be the one to take care of the problems, there wouldn't be any need to record the deeds of all the people we read about in the bible......
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 9:54:34 GMT -5
I reminded LS a few weeks ago that workers preach from the platform that we are to have faith and trust in God. Those are not just words that mean there are no actions that come with them. If you say you trust God and faith in him does not that mean he will help you to take care of situations that come to your attention? If you don't put your words into practice then how do you prove to God and others that you do have faith and trust in God? God does provide guidance in times of need. Did Jesus not say he, would give words to speak in times of need if one trust in God???
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 19, 2014 10:05:46 GMT -5
So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything. I agree. Anthony de Mello (Catholic priest/mystic) expressed it this way: "God cannot be bothered doing for you what you can do for yourself." www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57cFQkbBJQ
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Post by Gene on Feb 19, 2014 11:52:41 GMT -5
So far God isn't doing so good is he. It is up to us to solve the problems or they just don't get solved. The way I see it you can wait forever if you're waiting for God to solve anything. Those who sit back and do nothing thinking God will do it, probably won't see much change in anything. I agree. Anthony de Mello (Catholic priest/mystic) expressed it this way: "God cannot be bothered doing for you what you can do for yourself." www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57cFQkbBJQ I'm sure that's true. Unfortunately, it seems neither can he be bothered to do for folks what they cannot do for themselves. Little children facing abuse from adults comes to mind. Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnibenevolent?
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 19, 2014 12:41:37 GMT -5
I agree. Anthony de Mello (Catholic priest/mystic) expressed it this way: "God cannot be bothered doing for you what you can do for yourself." www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57cFQkbBJQ I'm sure that's true. Unfortunately, it seems neither can he be bothered to do for folks what they cannot do for themselves. Little children facing abuse from adults comes to mind. Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnibenevolent? I would think that is where other responsible adults (parents, other family members, friends, neighbors, members of society, clergy etc..) come into the equation. A human baby is born into the world. Normally parents would feed it clothe it, and dedicate their lives to that baby’s well-being. If the parents instead said “So great is my faith, I am going to leave it all up to God”, and neglect to feed it, clothe it, protect it, is the failure of that baby to thrive/survive attributable to a failure of “God”? THAT is the equivalent of someone saying 1) I am not going to bother to predator proof my children, because “God is going to look after them.” 2) I am going to leave my children unsupervised in the company of workers, because “They are so much closer to God than we ever could be.” 3) I am going to ignore my own instincts and let other people (including workers) make critical decisions for the well-being of my children because I need to “esteem them highly for the gospel’s sake”. 4) etc… Anthony De Mello uses the story of a man going to see a great Sufi master and he says “Master, how great is my trust in God that I haven’t even tied my camel to the post outside. I have left it to the providence of God and the care of God.” And the Sufi master says to him “Go out and tie that camel to the post, you fool.” If your perception of "God" is just a big all-powerful person with a white beard in the sky (or some kind of version thereof), yep, I would feel pretty ticked off at his failures too.
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2014 12:55:29 GMT -5
I agree. Anthony de Mello (Catholic priest/mystic) expressed it this way: "God cannot be bothered doing for you what you can do for yourself." www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57cFQkbBJQ I'm sure that's true. Unfortunately, it seems neither can he be bothered to do for folks what they cannot do for themselves. Little children facing abuse from adults comes to mind. Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnibenevolent? I have never experienced God doing anything for anyone actually. I have experienced people helping other people though. I think the idea of a God that helps who he wants is a very damaging mindset though. How does a child that has been told that God is a loving god that helps us and protects us, come to terms with the fact that they were abused and God didn't step in and help? Wouldn't that child feel that they were somehow not good enough, or loved enough by God to warrant protection? In many ways I feel teaching that is abusive emotionally. I can certainly understand how people think they are sinners if they believe that God helps those that are worthy.
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Post by jondough on Feb 19, 2014 13:39:25 GMT -5
If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? what if you just think it's broken from where you are sitting? Virgo, this is a very dangerous attitude. We ARE NOT perfect. We all need constant correction. That means EVERYONE. With constant small corrections, we stay on course. Without it, we go way off course, and a huge correction will then be necessary or we go off the road and crash.
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Post by fixit on Feb 19, 2014 13:46:41 GMT -5
How does a child that has been told that God is a loving god that helps us and protects us, come to terms with the fact that they were abused and God didn't step in and help? Wouldn't that child feel that they were somehow not good enough, or loved enough by God to warrant protection? Yes, should we be surprised if a couple of kids turned to Satan worship?
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2014 13:55:50 GMT -5
How does a child that has been told that God is a loving god that helps us and protects us, come to terms with the fact that they were abused and God didn't step in and help? Wouldn't that child feel that they were somehow not good enough, or loved enough by God to warrant protection? Yes, should we be surprised if a couple of kids turned to Satan worship? Well I don't see that going to the opposite side, so to speak, is the likely answer, but I suppose there are some that might. For me I just put the belief of a protective loving God away. I realize I am going to be the help others need, if I can, and they will be my help, when they can. I no longer have to be disappointed by not having a God that helps me and I don't need to feel unworthy either.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 19, 2014 14:11:02 GMT -5
Yes, should we be surprised if a couple of kids turned to Satan worship? Well I don't see that going to the opposite side, so to speak, is the likely answer, but I suppose there are some that might. For me I just put the belief of a protective loving God away. I realize I am going to be the help others need, if I can, and they will be my help, when they can. I no longer have to be disappointed by not having a God that helps me and I don't need to feel unworthy either. I don't feel unworthy, nor am I disappointed in God. However, I do get disappointed with people, irregardless of their religious or non-religious status.
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2014 14:31:51 GMT -5
Well I don't see that going to the opposite side, so to speak, is the likely answer, but I suppose there are some that might. For me I just put the belief of a protective loving God away. I realize I am going to be the help others need, if I can, and they will be my help, when they can. I no longer have to be disappointed by not having a God that helps me and I don't need to feel unworthy either. I don't feel unworthy, nor am I disappointed in God. However, I do get disappointed with people, irregardless of their religious or non-religious status. But you also expect people so come up with solutions. You don't just sit on your butt and pray. You take responsibility for what you can do and pray about what you can't. That likely gives you a better balance then someone who depends on God to make things right. I am curious though. How do you reconcile the all loving, all powerful and all knowing God and the fact that he isn't there to protect the most vulnerable among us, the children? It's something I could never reconcile when I still believed in a God.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 19, 2014 15:35:13 GMT -5
I don't feel unworthy, nor am I disappointed in God. However, I do get disappointed with people, irregardless of their religious or non-religious status. But you also expect people so come up with solutions. You don't just sit on your butt and pray. You take responsibility for what you can do and pray about what you can't. That likely gives you a better balance then someone who depends on God to make things right. I am curious though. How do you reconcile the all loving, all powerful and all knowing God and the fact that he isn't there to protect the most vulnerable among us, the children? It's something I could never reconcile when I still believed in a God. I figure that is our job. I certainly don't have all the answers, nor do I pretend to know all the whys and whatfors. If we all felt that God was going to take care of everything, then what would be the purpose in our lives? We wouldn't have to work, and we wouldn't have to do anything for that matter. So.... I don't try to reconcile anything that is outside of my sphere of influence. I have watched you go from not knowing what you believe, to wishing that the bible was never printed. Do you feel that way about ALL religions, or just Christianity? Would the world be a better place if everyone believed that this life is all there is, that there is nothing to look forward to beyond this life? Just curious, as I don't have a problem with atheists. What they believe doesn't affect my salvation in any way, nor does what anyone believes, actually. I don't like them pushing their agendas on me, anymore than I like any group pushing their agendas on me..... to include Christian groups who do so.
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Post by faune on Feb 19, 2014 16:24:48 GMT -5
If you don't acknowledge that something is broken, then how can you fix it? what if you just think it's broken from where you are sitting? Virgo ~ That's a possibility, too, but when a lot of problems come to light, it usually deals with a core issue never addressed. JMT
By the way, I love your new avatar and the message that goes along with it! I agree, a dog is man's best friend and a cat comes in second, since they are more temperamental and only show affection when they feel like it.
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2014 17:00:13 GMT -5
But you also expect people so come up with solutions. You don't just sit on your butt and pray. You take responsibility for what you can do and pray about what you can't. That likely gives you a better balance then someone who depends on God to make things right. I am curious though. How do you reconcile the all loving, all powerful and all knowing God and the fact that he isn't there to protect the most vulnerable among us, the children? It's something I could never reconcile when I still believed in a God. I figure that is our job. I certainly don't have all the answers, nor do I pretend to know all the whys and whatfors. If we all felt that God was going to take care of everything, then what would be the purpose in our lives? We wouldn't have to work, and we wouldn't have to do anything for that matter. So.... I don't try to reconcile anything that is outside of my sphere of influence. I have watched you go from not knowing what you believe, to wishing that the bible was never printed. Do you feel that way about ALL religions, or just Christianity? Would the world be a better place if everyone believed that this life is all there is, that there is nothing to look forward to beyond this life? Just curious, as I don't have a problem with atheists. What they believe doesn't affect my salvation in any way, nor does what anyone believes, actually. I don't like them pushing their agendas on me, anymore than I like any group pushing their agendas on me..... to include Christian groups who do so. I don't know that I know any more than I did before. I do wish the one god religions never existed. They are the ones that I feel cause the most amount of heartache and exclusivity. Once you believe there is only one God and that God is your God, (speaking here in general), then all other people's Gods become wrong. So I feel that was a step in the wrong direction. I don't believe in any religion or God myself. But I am particularly concerned about the ones like Islam, Christianity and Judaism. These religions are very much at odds with each other and are going to do a lot more damage before they are through imo. I would like to add something here though. I don't believe that all the people that are in these religions are bad. Individuals in all of these religions try and live by the foundations that they all share in common. Love and compassion. It's when they take the religion beyond these two characteristics that we see problems. Dogma, doctrines and exclusivity that interferes with humanities' ability to accept and tolerate each other better. So Scott, I do know that I believe the world would be better off without the exclusive mindset religions. I also still say, as I've done from the beginning of posting here, that I don't know if God exists, but I will never believe that the Judeao-Christian/Islamic God exists. Nothing could ever get me to believe in or worship that particular God. To answer your question about thinking this life is all there is, and would that be better. I don't know. I know it is better for me. I live the best I can now because I think this is all there is. Maybe some people wouldn't, I can't speak for others that way. Maybe an afterlife is the only thing that keeps some people from murdering and all those kinds of things. Maybe religious fear is necessary for some. You say you don't fear. That's good. Atheists don't fear either. I don't think I have an agenda to push on you. I just do what works for me and expect others to do what is best for them. If belief in God and an afterlife works for them, then that's good. I just wish their beliefs included others even if they have different Gods or beliefs from them.
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Post by Gene on Feb 19, 2014 18:43:35 GMT -5
I'm sure that's true. Unfortunately, it seems neither can he be bothered to do for folks what they cannot do for themselves. Little children facing abuse from adults comes to mind. Omnipotent? Omniscient? Omnibenevolent? I would think that is where other responsible adults (parents, other family members, friends, neighbors, members of society, clergy etc..) come into the equation. A human baby is born into the world. Normally parents would feed it clothe it, and dedicate their lives to that baby’s well-being. If the parents instead said “So great is my faith, I am going to leave it all up to God”, and neglect to feed it, clothe it, protect it, is the failure of that baby to thrive/survive attributable to a failure of “God”? I understand that your point of view is consistent with scripture. It is consistent with God visiting the sins of the parents upon the children. Daddy fails to protect little Susie from the abuser. God takes no action to intervene to stop the abuser. In effect, if not in purpose, God punishes Susie directly and Daddy by proxy for Daddy's failure to protect.
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Post by SharonArnold on Feb 19, 2014 19:29:46 GMT -5
Daddy fails to protect little Susie from the abuser. God takes no action to intervene to stop the abuser. In effect, if not in purpose, God punishes Susie directly and Daddy by proxy for Daddy's failure to protect. What a dastardly sort of fellow, that God guy! That is just soooo unfair! That's even worse than putting that fruit tree in the middle of the garden! Man, what did he expect?!!! (He had to know, right?)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2014 20:45:40 GMT -5
Despite the endless words on this thread, the bottom line is we must protect our vulnerable children HERE on this EARTH. Did you know that some of my relatives think Darren Briggs was "set up" in Michigan. When I get upset with them, they downplay their views a bit. Many of them see Jerome Frandle and Bill Denk as victims in the Michigan mess.
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