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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 0:30:44 GMT -5
No it does not answer it NathanB The workers today would have us believe that to be saved we must hear the gospel from a couple of them that have gone out as Jesus told his disciples to go out. Clearly this did not happen with WI and his sister. I am B and R 3rd generation but God showed me the error of the 2x2's a few years ago. My Dad met WI when Dad was young. There is no need to quote the bible to me. So back to the question, are you able to answer it? I answered you with scriptures... And the workers teach.... People can hear the gospel through the friends, church elders and the workers!... WI and his sister heard it through the church elders! who had Sunday morning meetings in their home. The Faith Mission did NOT believe or teach Sunday worship with emblems or taken the communion. Nathan, where is your proof that WI and his sister heard it through the church elders?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 0:44:33 GMT -5
This statement from Dr.Jaenen is indicative of how powerful was the lie. Dr.Jaenen was a trained professional historian and even he checked his professional curiosity at the door and accepted the shores of Galilee lie. In fact, in our part of the world, he was actually a big part of perpetuating the lie in a speech he gave at United College (subsequently University of Winnipeg) somewhere around 1970. The speech was recorded and sent around many friends at least in Western Canada as proof of the shores of Galilee lie. We had a copy of the speech in our home when I was a teenager.
Dr. Jaenen has since been an excellent example of how someone can make things right through his integrity. He has admitted to his error and made correction in his last book. If only the workers could find the humility and integrity to follow his lead on that.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 0:56:45 GMT -5
That is not what the workers teach. They say, and I have heard it countless times that only through hearing the gospel preached by them can one be saved. Are you saying that this is not so? Yes, that is what I am saying... It is NOT so... MANY of the strangers who came and professed, they heard the gospel through the friends FIRST before they heard the workers or attending their gospel meetings. Many of them already made their choice in their hearts, before they attend the workers gospel meetings. The friends laid good foundation and the Holy Spirit already convicted and convinced the Truth of Jesus in their hearts long before they attend the workers meetings. How can the workers take the credit? Paul, Ethiopian Eunuch, Apollo did NOT hear from the apostle/worker but through the saints..... AND most of the workers should know and acknowledge this... Where do you get the information that people heard the gospel through the friends FIRST before they heard the workers or attended gospel meetings?
The workers in this country went from community to community and had gospel meetings in schools, tents, store buildings -and there were no "friends" already there!
I was able to trace through our small town's newspaper where the workers had meetings, first in one little community this week, then meetings in another community the next week, until finally the community where my father and is family professed in the 1920's! It was fascinating to watch those meetings moving around!
Those small town newspapers had a designated "reporter" from each little community to bring them the news. And brought it they did! Who visited who etc, every little bit of news available and believe me, most communities knew everything going on in their community!
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 1:00:12 GMT -5
You've gotta be kidding Nathan. You expect us to trust your convoluted accounting of history more than the acclaimed academic Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen? Show us some workers lists between 1890 and 1900 please. Give me time and I will reveal the Vaudois teachings, belief on Jesus 2x2 apostolic New Testament succession for 1800 yrs. I have been saying this for 15 yrs. Time? You have been at it for 15 years and you want more time? I don't think that I will be around in another 15 years
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 1:15:48 GMT -5
So Nathan, Now that I know that we used to be the "Vaudois" When and who decided to drop the name? simple answer please....No cut & Paste The name Vaudois is the place where they lived and came from in Italy... We don't live in Italy. The name Vaudois, the friends of God, and others names were given to them. We have been given the name 2x2s because our workers go 2 and 2 like Jesus sent out his apostles in Matthew 10 and Luke 10, Paul and Barnabas... So we use to live in Italy. Then made our way to Ireland. Were we the Waldensians and the Voudois at the same time, different times? I know the Waldensians still exist today. But they aren't us anymore, We dropped that name as well. Maybe another group like it, and since we were dropping it, they decided to pick it up. ?
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Post by quizzer on Jan 26, 2014 1:16:39 GMT -5
Y'know, it occurs to me that if WI's sister had guided WI to the 2x2s, then (by rights) the sister workers should be the overseers of the 2x2s.
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 1:18:20 GMT -5
p.s. No one can give you something if you don't take it. I don't believe we have taken the name "2X2" that I'm aware of.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 26, 2014 1:40:27 GMT -5
p.s. No one can give you something if you don't take it. I don't believe we have taken the name "2X2" that I'm aware of. Officially you haven't taken that name. Of course there are several names that have been registered and used. For the sake of clarity, would you rather be referred to as Christian Conventions? Always curious about that. I normally try to use 'truth fellowship'. When I asked one of the overseers what I should use (I had used 2x2's in conversation) that is what he suggested.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 2:44:27 GMT -5
From Cherie's TTT website: In about 1967 or 1968, Robert Darling spoke at Silverdale, British Columbia Canada Convention. His text was Daniel 2: 34, 35 & 45, particularly about the stone "cut out of the mountain without hands," which "filled the whole earth." He then said that the stone was William Irvine's sister. She became very ill and died. According to Robert, she supposedly had a dream which she related to William, which deeply stirred him and in some manner supposedly influenced him religiously from then on. Robert Darling's main point was that we should be crediting Wm's sister God took in death before William Irvine even began preaching--instead of crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. William's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands."
Donald Fisher, a California brother worker, wrote Fred Miller a letter sometime before 1982: " In 1967, I talked with Robert Darling, at the Olympia convention grounds. At that time he told me that of the first 116 Workers who went forth, only eight were yet alive, he being one and he told me the names of the other seven. Our conversation turned unto Early Days. Robert told an interesting account of how the sister of Wm. Irvine turned religious. He mentioned that in his own thoughts he had the feeling Irvine's sister had contacted the truth (the faith passed down from Jesus' day) and passed this on unto Wm. Irvine."
~~~ Faith Mission's Bright Words 13th Annual Report Nov/Dec 1899.
Mr. John and Mrs. Govan, in Scotland, founded the Faith Mission 1886. The Faith Mission is a Protestant evangelical movement that works in neglected rural communities. Our 13th year with the total of 65 workers (preachers) were as follows on their list:
15) William Irvine 6/14/1895 17) John Kelly 5/27/1896 22) Harry O. M'Neary 1/10/1897 36) Joe Burns 1/8/1898 48) 14th Annual report May Carroll 11/19/ 1899.
~~~ NathanB: 1905 Go-preachers 2x2s workers list showed us John Long, John Kelly, Joe Burns, and May Carroll from the Faith Mission and 200 more names of men and women became Jesus 2x2s Go-Preachers Itinerant apostolic preachers of the gospel and followers.Changes of hearts from the Faith Mission preachers to Jesus apostolic New Testament ministry and fellowship.In 1897 William Irvine was a Faith Mission preacher! from 1895-1900. In 1897 John Long was a preacher for the Methodist church. There was NO 2x2s Go-preacher church was formed or started in 1897 by William Irvine or John Long's mission.
OMG!
So, "we should be crediting Wm's sister.... instead of crediting William Irvine with starting this fellowship; and thus, avoid any accusation that this fellowship is man-made. William's sister was, therefore, "the stone made without hands."
So, now we women are going to be blamed for starting "this fellowship," The **TRUTH**, The **WAY** the (2X2'S), whatever.
Not "man"-made, but "woman" (woe-to-man) made!
Eve did it all over again!
Man's scape goat once again.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 26, 2014 2:45:57 GMT -5
Y'know, it occurs to me that if WI's sister had guided WI to the 2x2s, then (by rights) the sister workers should be the overseers of the 2x2s. Nah, we just get the blame, none of the glory
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Post by Mary on Jan 26, 2014 4:48:18 GMT -5
Time? You have been at it for 15 years and you want more time? I don't think that I will be around in another 15 years Awww, dm don't be like that but I'm fast catching up. I've got another birthday in a few weeks. Those men could not do without us women. They would have no one to blame for their mistakes.
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 8:51:39 GMT -5
p.s. No one can give you something if you don't take it. I don't believe we have taken the name "2X2" that I'm aware of. Officially you haven't taken that name. Of course there are several names that have been registered and used. For the sake of clarity, would you rather be referred to as Christian Conventions? Always curious about that. I normally try to use 'truth fellowship'. When I asked one of the overseers what I should use (I had used 2x2's in conversation) that is what he suggested. I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jan 26, 2014 8:57:42 GMT -5
Officially you haven't taken that name. Of course there are several names that have been registered and used. For the sake of clarity, would you rather be referred to as Christian Conventions? Always curious about that. I normally try to use 'truth fellowship'. When I asked one of the overseers what I should use (I had used 2x2's in conversation) that is what he suggested. I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used. I think 2x2s is going to stick. The term "methodist" was a word used by other denominations to describe the group that became known as the Methodists. The same applies to the "Quakers" as well. I don't see 2x2s as being a term of derision- but a simple description- just like for the Methodists and the Quakers.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 26, 2014 9:24:37 GMT -5
Officially you haven't taken that name. Of course there are several names that have been registered and used. For the sake of clarity, would you rather be referred to as Christian Conventions? Always curious about that. I normally try to use 'truth fellowship'. When I asked one of the overseers what I should use (I had used 2x2's in conversation) that is what he suggested. I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used. What do you say when people ask you what church you go to?
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 10:04:03 GMT -5
I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used. What do you say when people ask you what church you go to? I tell them that its non-denomination, and that we just meet wherever. I explain that we just get together in homes for bible studies, and then when our ministers speak, we will gather together in a rented hall or a school house, or whatever.... Of course they will always ask the name again.....I'll say that we just believe in Christ. We don't read in the New Testament of anyone taking on a name.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2014 10:11:47 GMT -5
What do you say when people ask you what church you go to? I tell them that its non-denomination, and that we just meet wherever. I explain that we just get together in homes for bible studies, and then when our ministers speak, we will gather together in a rented hall or a school house, or whatever.... Of course they will always ask the name again.....I'll say that we just believe in Christ. We don't read in the New Testament of anyone taking on a name. Jondough ~ I can think of one place in Acts 11:19-26 in the New Testament where a name was used for identifying purposes:
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2011%3A19-26&version=NKJV;KJV
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 10:22:44 GMT -5
I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used. I think 2x2s is going to stick. The term "methodist" was a word used by other denominations to describe the group that became known as the Methodists. The same applies to the "Quakers" as well. I don't see 2x2s as being a term of derision- but a simple description- just like for the Methodists and the Quakers. I think it has already stuck for "outsiders". I don't think the F&W will ever use it for themselves tho.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 10:25:02 GMT -5
I use "our fellowship" Most use "The Truth" but when asked what the name of our church, they will say "we don't have a name". As far as filling out official documents where they had to come up with something.....Yes, there have been various other names used. What do you say when people ask you what church you go to? It's a surprisingly challenging question when it should be a simple answer. I usually try to determine if they want the short answer or the long answer. What they are asking most of the time is "what's the name so if I'm not familiar with it I can look up the web site later?" The short answer doesn't help them in that regard. "Non-denominational Christian fellowship that meets in homes" is just about as short as it can get but provides them with very little information. When that raises more questions, that's when most friends get vague (because they are not supposed to preach) and invite them to gospel meetings where they intimate that all the questions will be answered. That system doesn't work, at least not in today's world. People need a lot of information regarding legitimacy and what is offered before they will walk into a strange church situation. A few will come if they know and trust the friend highly the Friends don't usually have a lot of friends that close in "the world". A name and a web site would make things a lot easier for the friends and provide the information the person is looking for about what the fellowship is all about.
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 10:26:59 GMT -5
I tell them that its non-denomination, and that we just meet wherever. I explain that we just get together in homes for bible studies, and then when our ministers speak, we will gather together in a rented hall or a school house, or whatever.... Of course they will always ask the name again.....I'll say that we just believe in Christ. We don't read in the New Testament of anyone taking on a name. Jondough ~ I can think of one place in Acts 11:25-26 in the New Testament a shown below:
I also call myself a "Christian" meaning that I believe in Christ, according to the New Testament, and follow his teaching.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2014 10:43:28 GMT -5
Jondough ~ I can think of one place in Acts 11:25-26 in the New Testament a shown below:
I also call myself a "Christian" meaning that I believe in Christ, according to the New Testament, and follow his teaching. Jondough ~ I believe Christian became the first identifying name attached to early followers of Christ according to this passage and continued to be used for identification purposes ~ so they did take a name after all.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2014 10:47:09 GMT -5
What do you say when people ask you what church you go to? It's a surprisingly challenging question when it should be a simple answer. I usually try to determine if they want the short answer or the long answer. What they are asking most of the time is "what's the name so if I'm not familiar with it I can look up the web site later?" The short answer doesn't help them in that regard. "Non-denominational Christian fellowship that meets in homes" is just about as short as it can get but provides them with very little information. When that raises more questions, that's when most friends get vague (because they are not supposed to preach) and invite them to gospel meetings where they intimate that all the questions will be answered. That system doesn't work, at least not in today's world. People need a lot of information regarding legitimacy and what is offered before they will walk into a strange church situation. A few will come if they know and trust the friend highly the Friends don't usually have a lot of friends that close in "the world". A name and a web site would make things a lot easier for the friends and provide the information the person is looking for about what the fellowship is all about. Clearday ~ Perhaps you could just refer them to Cherie's website, Telling the Truth, for all the information they would need, too?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 10:57:31 GMT -5
It's a surprisingly challenging question when it should be a simple answer. I usually try to determine if they want the short answer or the long answer. What they are asking most of the time is "what's the name so if I'm not familiar with it I can look up the web site later?" The short answer doesn't help them in that regard. "Non-denominational Christian fellowship that meets in homes" is just about as short as it can get but provides them with very little information. When that raises more questions, that's when most friends get vague (because they are not supposed to preach) and invite them to gospel meetings where they intimate that all the questions will be answered. That system doesn't work, at least not in today's world. People need a lot of information regarding legitimacy and what is offered before they will walk into a strange church situation. A few will come if they know and trust the friend highly the Friends don't usually have a lot of friends that close in "the world". A name and a web site would make things a lot easier for the friends and provide the information the person is looking for about what the fellowship is all about. Clearday ~ Perhaps you could just refer them to Cherie's website, Telling the Truth, for all the information they would need, too? Definitely yes if they were interested in that level of detail. If anyone asks about how it started, I usually have a short summary about the late 1890's restoration movement and that's usually all people are looking for.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 26, 2014 11:21:24 GMT -5
So we use to live in Italy. Then made our way to Ireland. Were we the Waldensians and the Voudois at the same time, different times? I know the Waldensians still exist today. But they aren't us anymore, We dropped that name as well. Maybe another group like it, and since we were dropping it, they decided to pick it up. ? Here is a Waldensian man's comments about Nate's Waldensian theory... October 16, 2008 By Chris Cahill on TMB (a B&R 2x2 man who became a Waldensian)
A little bit about me---I was born in what you call a 2x2 home, but I did not profess. I knew a little bit about the history growing up, as I would spend summers visiting my grannies in Oregon (one in Salem, the other in Eugene). Both my grannies had professed through Cooney, back in the days when Irvine was still part of the fellowship. My grams in Eugene was extremely close to me--out of all her 9 grandchildren I was her favorite. She confided in me quite a bit about what she knew about the history--she did not want to see me get entrapped in this way as she had been. She told me that “a lot of people call us Cooneyites” and also about how the head worker had bullied her, telling her to “burn” old letters etc. that referenced the early leaders and to keep quiet about the history. Years afterwards she still wept to me about it--she was quite a packrat and hated giving up her memories. To the horror of my parents, I was the recipient of a full scholarship to a Catholic University--Santa Clara and once I left home I never attended a meeting again, so it has been many years. At Santa Clara, I met my wife to be--she has a Waldensian background. There was an entire community of Waldensian students at college with us. I have found that many Waldensians prefer a Catholic education for their children as it is closest to their own beliefs. I sent my own children to Catholic prep schools and then Catholic colleges. Two of them went to my old Alma Mater, Santa Clara! Nicole (or Nick) as I call her came from a very old Waldensian family, and I was intrigued by them (and her)! Her family is extremely cosmopolitan, and she was raised in France. One thing that few outsiders realize about the Waldensians is that the history of the church is intertwined with the history of winemaking. If you look at maps of Europe, you will find that the church thrived in the areas known for their exceptional viticulture and enology. Nick’s family has been winemakers throughout many centuries and they now own many vineyards. They also have a castle that dates back to the early middle ages. Owning a family castle may sound grand--but it is not a place that many people would want to live. It is extremely old--mostly in rubble--few modern conveniences and unlivable except for one section. However, every summer the family spends some time there and I have to say that the one great benefit of the place is that it is full of family (and thus Waldensian) history. My favorite part is the chapel--which is actually still quite beautiful due to a great-great-great-great-great grandmother of Nicole’s who funded a restoration in the 1700‘s. The chapel has served the local Waldensian community since the 1500’s and it is adjacent to a family/Waldenisan community cemetery that dates even further back than the chapel -- some of the graves date back to the 1300‘s! This cemetery has many graves that are marked “moine” that is the French word for “monk”. In the early days of the church, those who devoted their lives to church service were called monks. The gravestones are decorated with Waldensian symbols. In the chapel, we have artwork, including a magnificent stained glass that is over 500 years old which depicts not only Waldensian church history, but also the stories of several family members who were prominent in the church. We also have several statues, my favorite is of the Virgin Mary--when my wife and I were married part of the Waldensian ritual was to place flowers in front of this statue--asking the Virgin to bless our marriage. Our own children have followed this beautiful old Waldensian tradition at their own marriage ceremonies. We also have a little museum. Most Waldensian churches--including my local one that I have provided a link to have a museum (and a winery--our local churches winery is a huge tourist attraction--visit us!), because we cherish and preserve our history. I admit that this was difficult in the times when there were not many written materials, but we still have a wealth of historical riches. Confirmation gowns, pendants and pins, family portraits--containing symbols that are rich in hidden meaning! And from the 1600’s on we have written history. We have family bibles, diaries, written accounts. I love flipping through those old family bibles (even though I cannot understand them--the very old bibles are the Vulgate--the bible that we use now is the “Catholic Living Bible“ because it reads like a novel--very easy!) and looking at the names of those who have gone before! Some of the important family stories have been passed on--first through the oral tradition for many years--then written out centuries later. According to family history, three members of Nick’s family were persecuted by the Catholic church. Interestingly enough, family tradition holds that these people were persecuted because wealthy bishops wanted their vineyards, religious differences were used merely as a flimsy excuse to provide cover for a bold land-grab. All three eventually went back to the Catholic church in order to retain their family lands. What I love best about the church are the wonderful little traditions and French sayings that have become part of our life through the centuries. We just finished having a family reunion--as the Waldensians like to say, we bathed ourselves in family (nous avons pris un bain de famille). This is similar to how the Jewish people have Hebrew sayings, and the Catholics have Latin--French is the language of our church and we have many little everyday French sayings that have come down to us due to that association. Above, someone said that the Waldensians have “conventions.” Well, the closest thing in my experience is that we have a Waldensian Festival every August, but this festival is a very new development, it only dates back to 1976. It is fantastic--we have lots of good wine, we show off our crafts, have food vendors, entertainers and games. It is very similar to a fair. I don’t see any similarities to convention, but you are welcome to come and see for yourself! It is certainly a lot of fun--and our family sells quite a bit of wine each year there…. I had heard of the 2x2 trying to make a connection between themselves and our church many years ago--my father pulled out a paper written by that Cornelius guy about a dozen years ago (on fete le Thanksgiving!). We all thought it was quite silly (even my 2x2Cooneyite parents) and took little stock in it. [NOTE from Cherie: Cornelius Janean, author of “The Apostles Doctrine & Fellowship”] More recently my wife saw Nathan’s ramblings on the web--and came to me saying--someone is interested in the Church! She was very excited--saying that she didn’t know people were interested in the church anymore--so she begged me to come here and tell about our church. Well--after checking it out--most here are NOT interested in our church. They are interested in proving that there is one “true” church and that the Waldensians were it for a brief time--but that now it is the 2x2/Cooneyites. Good luck with that! Most Christians understand that the true church is the believers. There have always been believers throughout history. Doesn’t matter what their church affiliation was. In 1600, there were true believers in my group, there were also Catholics who were true believers. And there were people in both churches who were NOT true believers. There was not, never has been, and never will be a true church (where people are saved just by membership alone) and a false church (where people are doomed regardless of their relationship with God). It is a very, very dangerous idea to believe that you need to find this true church to be saved. I am not interested in this train of thought. If anyone is interested in Waldensians--you are welcome to come to our forums--both at my church and others. I have little interest in the 2x2/Cooneyites. They have been in my rear view mirror for many years--and that is where I intend to keep them. I wrote out my history in response to Cherie--who has done such a great research job--she deserves to have this history if she wants it. If anyone wants to use it, they are welcome to it. By Chris Cahill October 16, 2008 Waldensian church website: www.waldensianpresbyterian.org/Posted on TLC Website: thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=183:cahill-chris&catid=5:recent-exit-stories&Itemid=6
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 11:48:31 GMT -5
I also call myself a "Christian" meaning that I believe in Christ, according to the New Testament, and follow his teaching. Jondough ~ I believe Christian became the first identifying name attached to early followers of Christ according to this passage and continued to be used for identification purposes ~ so they did take a name after all. How about this one "The Way"? Acts 19:9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. New Living Translation But some became stubborn, rejecting his message and publicly speaking against the Way. So Paul left the synagogue and took the believers with him. Then he held daily discussions at the lecture hall of Tyrannus. English Standard Version But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus. New American Standard Bible But when some were becoming hardened and disobedient, speaking evil of the Way before the people, he withdrew from them and took away the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. King James Bible But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus. Holman Christian Standard Bible But when some became hardened and would not believe, slandering the Way in front of the crowd, he withdrew from them and met separately with the disciples, conducting discussions every day in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. International Standard Version But when some people became stubborn, refused to believe, and slandered the Way in front of the people, Paul left them, taking his disciples away with him, and held daily discussions in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. NET Bible But when some were stubborn and refused to believe, reviling the Way before the congregation, he left them and took the disciples with him, addressing them every day in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
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Post by faune on Jan 26, 2014 12:03:40 GMT -5
Cherie ~ Thanks for sharing that letter and the history lesson. I loved reading about their conventions, too!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 12:07:09 GMT -5
Because I've joined two women's bible studies, I have been asked by each group what church I belong to. I've said I attend an international, non-denominational house church fellowship. The answer has to that so far has been 'Oh.' The few times lately when folks have asked more about this fellowship (which is what I call it), I've said we are a restoration movement founded in 1897 based on attempt to follow Matt 10 and no one has ever asked more. But then, the folks asking love their pastor and church and so aren't looking for anything else.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 26, 2014 12:54:44 GMT -5
You've gotta be kidding Nathan. You expect us to trust your convoluted accounting of history more than the acclaimed academic Dr. Cornelius J. Jaenen? Show us some workers lists between 1890 and 1900 please. Give me time and I will reveal the Vaudois teachings, belief on Jesus 2x2 apostolic New Testament succession for 1800 yrs. I have been saying this for 15 yrs.Perhaps since you've spent umpteen hours of time already over the Vaudois who had their 2x2 ministry, yes....you might start searching for the modern day 2x2 ministries....there are some but they are no relation to the 2x2 workers or their sect of religion. Nathan, please remember this for it is only common horse sense. And that is it isn't UNUSUAL for people to go 2x2 for any reason, they don't even have to be on a religious journey! Just because the 2x2 workers have become a catch phrase to speak of the WI or GW or JC converts/members doesn't mean that any other group who use the same kind of 2x2 ministry ARE A PART of the 2x2 workers you know! Okay? The Vaudois are a SEPARATE group from the 2x2 workers of today...they have NOTHING in common other then they sent their ministry 2x2....and why do people go 2x2, Nathan? Is it not to verify one another's message as being the truth? Certainly, the workers do work overtime that they do NOT cancel each other's messages out, but that they are bearing the same message and THIS is the reason the 2x2 sect of religion as far as preaching the gospel of Christ is failing that very much and much too often! They are preaching the "2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home." Say what? There are religious meetings in the home all over this city of over 85,000 people.....but NONE of them are of the 2x2 workers' church that you know about....there is only 1 man in this large city that professes....there are 2 who profess in a small suburb of this city to the east. There are 2 men who profess across the state line about 30 miles from this major city and there are 6 family members who profess about 45 miles to the south who come this direction or that each Sunday to help fill the rooms up.....but should you search through the city, I'm sure you could find home meetings with anywhere from 4 to 20 people in each one....on the average Sunday morening! So because the Vaudois went 2x2 for their ministry does NOT say that they were of the 2x2 workers' church which you keep trying to make them belong to....that won't work any more, Nathan....the sooner you accept the word and evidence that Cornelius and/or Cherie or anyone else that the 2x2 workers' church began in 1897......at that time it was ONLY the worker level......
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Post by jondough on Jan 26, 2014 12:55:59 GMT -5
In regards to the Waldensians,
I was reading somewhere that they believe in a Trinitarian God.
I know that you do was well Nathan, but despite what you may think, current F&W DO NOT believe in the Trinity.
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