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Post by gecko45 on Dec 21, 2013 14:50:16 GMT -5
It was some time ago, (perhaps 12-15 years ago), I got to visiting with an older couple from New Zealand and we got on the subject of the indigenous people of New Zealand. They told me that in the early days of the Gospel in New Zealand that it was accepted by the Maori people (in some areas at least), they said that there even was a Maori hymn book, and like all the Polynesian people, they were wonderful singers. Later this group dwindled away to virtually nothing.
I am curious if any of our Kiwi board members can shed any light on this.
Currently the New Zealand administration has some workers in the Polynesian Islands (Fiji, Tonga, etc) and have had some success. Max Goldsack and Bryan Gibson were there in recent years.
This is what I was able to find in a quick search on Cheri's TTT site.
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Post by Mary on Dec 21, 2013 16:00:34 GMT -5
Growing up in meetings in NZ and attending Pukekohe convention most of my childhood (Convention for the middle half and up of NZ) there were a few Maori friends up the North of the North Island professing when I was a child.
A man whose last name was Smith (his wife was not professing or may be she had died) and a woman, and her 2 sons. The youngest boy got killed when he was 17. The oldest boy left meetings shortly before that time at about the age of 22 or so. Their surname was something like Tauora. That would have been about 2 - 3 Maoris out of about 1500 professing people attending convention from Taupo to North cape at the time I am talking about in the 60s. By 1970 I would say they had all died. That is just my recollection as a teenager growing up in meetings. There was one female Maori worker I knew -0 yes, Isabel. As for south of the middle of the North Island I don't know.
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 26, 2013 21:31:57 GMT -5
Didn't know of any Maori workers, that is new to me. Nice to hear.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 2:04:01 GMT -5
Growing up in meetings in NZ and attending Pukekohe convention most of my childhood (Convention for the middle half and up of NZ) there were a few Maori friends up the North of the North Island professing when I was a child. A man whose last name was Smith (his wife was not professing or may be she had died) and a woman, and her 2 sons. The youngest boy got killed when he was 17. The oldest boy left meetings shortly before that time at about the age of 22 or so. Their surname was something like Tauora. That would have been about 2 - 3 Maoris out of about 1500 professing people attending convention from Taupo to North cape at the time I am talking about in the 60s. By 1970 I would say they had all died. That is just my recollection as a teenager growing up in meetings. There was one female Maori worker I knew -0 yes, Isabel. As for south of the middle of the North Island I don't know. Isabel was not full Maori she was more Pakeha
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Post by Mary on Dec 27, 2013 4:24:45 GMT -5
I wasn't meaning she was full Maori. The first post was clear that she was part Maori. Many people with only a little bit of Maori in them identify as Maori. There are very few, if any, full Maori living in NZ yet 15% of the population identify as Maori. You only need a tiny bit and you can call yourself Maori.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 4:47:23 GMT -5
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 27, 2013 11:12:27 GMT -5
I wasn't meaning she was full Maori. The first post was clear that she was part Maori. Many people with only a little bit of Maori in them identify as Maori. There are very few, if any, full Maori living in NZ yet 15% of the population identify as Maori. You only need a tiny bit and you can call yourself Maori. Sounds much like our native Indians in this part of the US....there are many mixed blood Indians, but they still are considered "indian"...they receive the free medical c are, etc.That is IF they have their indian nation numbers from their predecessors!
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 27, 2013 15:16:12 GMT -5
I wasn't meaning she was full Maori. The first post was clear that she was part Maori. Many people with only a little bit of Maori in them identify as Maori. There are very few, if any, full Maori living in NZ yet 15% of the population identify as Maori. You only need a tiny bit and you can call yourself Maori. Sounds much like our native Indians in this part of the US....there are many mixed blood Indians, but they still are considered "indian"...they receive the free medical c are, etc.That is IF they have their indian nation numbers from their predecessors! Yes the Maori people are much like the North American native, with all of the culture of alcohol abuse, sexual abuse and violence that comes when 2 distinctly different cultures meet. If you want a good (or terrible) heart rending read this winter check out "Once Were Warriors" by NZ author Alan Duff. Or catch the movie if you prefer. Brutal roller-coaster ride of emotions that book. Back on the OT, have either of you, "Virgo" or "Mary" heard of a Maori hymn book? Perhaps it was a leaflet made up for one mission, that would seem more plausible.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 23:14:08 GMT -5
That's not Maori culture, that's something sad to suck in tourists.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2013 23:17:40 GMT -5
The Underwoods, Graham, Ngaomi Kaye and cousin Jack as well as children David, Arthur, Lynece and Dennis are Maori. All professing. I have the whakapapa somewhere if anyone wants to know more. Another child Stan is not professing. There's another child of Kaye and husband Trevor but I cannot remember the name. Also professing.
Gecko. I think the book you mentioned represents only part of the Maori people. There are many fine Maori people on this earth just like there are many fine Pakeha people.
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Post by gecko45 on Dec 27, 2013 23:56:32 GMT -5
The Underwoods, Graham, Ngaomi Kaye and cousin Jack as well as children David, Arthur, Lynece and Dennis are Maori. All professing. I have the whakapapa somewhere if anyone wants to know more. Another child Stan is not professing. There's another child of Kaye and husband Trevor but I cannot remember the name. Also professing. Gecko. I think the book you mentioned represents only part of the Maori people. There are many fine Maori people on this earth just like there are many fine Pakeha people. Yes, the book only represents part of Maori culture but one that is sadly akin to the experiences of North American Natives. We in North America really are pretty clueless about other cultures. Though sports fans may have seen the "Haka" performed before a rugby game. The gospel has not prospered in any aboriginal culture that I can think of, at least in the English speaking countries. Of course old, racist, Victorian era idea's certainly did not help aboriginal people to see any benefit to "Truth" when it came to them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 1:24:24 GMT -5
That's not Maori culture, that's something sad to suck in tourists. that i would agree with
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 1:29:27 GMT -5
The Underwoods, Graham, Ngaomi Kaye and cousin Jack as well as children David, Arthur, Lynece and Dennis are Maori. All professing. I have the whakapapa somewhere if anyone wants to know more. Another child Stan is not professing. There's another child of Kaye and husband Trevor but I cannot remember the name. Also professing. Gecko. I think the book you mentioned represents only part of the Maori people. There are many fine Maori people on this earth just like there are many fine Pakeha people. I have many fine Maori friends and one of my best friends from my school days was nearly a full blooded Maori passed away just a year ago which makes me very sad when I think of him I have heard of the Underwoods but have never meet any of them, what part of the country are they at?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 1:36:15 GMT -5
The Underwoods, Graham, Ngaomi Kaye and cousin Jack as well as children David, Arthur, Lynece and Dennis are Maori. All professing. I have the whakapapa somewhere if anyone wants to know more. Another child Stan is not professing. There's another child of Kaye and husband Trevor but I cannot remember the name. Also professing. Gecko. I think the book you mentioned represents only part of the Maori people. There are many fine Maori people on this earth just like there are many fine Pakeha people. Yes, the book only represents part of Maori culture but one that is sadly akin to the experiences of North American Natives. We in North America really are pretty clueless about other cultures. Though sports fans may have seen the "Haka" performed before a rugby game. The gospel has not prospered in any aboriginal culture that I can think of, at least in the English speaking countries. Of course old, racist, Victorian era idea's certainly did not help aboriginal people to see any benefit to "Truth" when it came to them. some how i don't think that the Victorian era has any part in what people do today the Gospel also hasn't prospered among other faiths they all have their own Gods
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 1:48:21 GMT -5
Waikato, They are Ngati Pou from Port Waikato.
Graham died about three years ago, married Annis Hall, sister to Charlie, Enid (workers) and May. Kaye married Trevor Thorburn. Naomi married cousin Jack
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Post by Mary on Dec 28, 2013 2:41:46 GMT -5
I knew the Underwood's. Lovely family. I didn't know they had Maori in them. I knew the Thorburn's too, I think they may have been Kaye and Trevor (are they the ones in their 80s now if they are still alive), also a lovely family. At least my memory of them growing up. If Trevor is in his 80s then Stanley who never professed, was their child. He became a lawyer and a court judge. They also had a girl - again lovely lady, I think her name might have been Carol. She was a very talented lady. She would love dressing up and acting and would act out scenes at professing evenings. I guess any Maori in them was well diluted as I never knew they had any in them and they spent a bit of time in our home. Stanley, Dennis and Carol would be in their mid to late 60s now. (Not sure if we are allowed to put names on here, guess the admin will let us know. I will delete the names in a week or two) What if the Maoris do their thing now days. Does it have to be the same as it was 150 years ago. They try to copy it but this is Maori culture to day. I loved this one of Edgars daughter in the South Island of NZ. That's true to form, not just for tourists although tourists love going there especially in winter for skiing. www.themasseys.net/familypix/2013-12/-viewer.asp?slide=13
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 3:34:57 GMT -5
I knew the Underwood's. Lovely family. I didn't know they had Maori in them. I knew the Thorburn's too, I think they may have been Kaye and Trevor (are they the ones in their 80s now if they are still alive), also a lovely family. At least my memory of them growing up. If Trevor is in his 80s then Stanley who never professed, was their child. He became a lawyer and a district court judge. The other boy, (I forget his name too - I think it might have been Dennis Thorburn) went to Australia, just north of Melbourne, not sure if they are still there. Maybe Bert knows him as they would go to the same convention. So did I actually, so maybe I knew Bert when I went to meetings in Melbourne too. I notice you have Stanley and Dennis in a different order not sure who is right, me or you. They also had a girl - again lovely lady, I think her name might have been Carol. She was a very talented lady, played the violin in the symphony orchestra. I remember the workers telling her something like not being like the world. She would love dressing up and acting and would act out scenes at professing evenings. I guess any Maori in them was well diluted as I never knew they had any in them and they spent a bit of time in our home. Stanley, Dennis and Carol?? would be in their mid to late 60s now. (Not sure if we are allowed to put names on here, guess the admin will let us know. I will delete the names in a week or two) What if the Maoris do their thing now days. Does it have to be the same as it was 150 years ago. They try to copy it but this is Maori culture to day. I loved this one of Edgars daughter in the South Island of NZ. That's true to form, not just for tourists although tourists love going there especially in winter for skiing. www.themasseys.net/familypix/2013-12/-viewer.asp?slide=13 Dennis lives in Christchurch if it's the same one who's wife's name is Susan, three girls and a boy
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 3:51:37 GMT -5
Virgo is right, Dennis and Susan live in Chch. Trevor and Kaye are dead. Graham is dead. For some reason they kept their Maori whakapapa quiet until later in life. Naomi has a wealth of information about it going right back to the very early 1800's.
Point is, just cause someone looks pakeha they may not be pakeha. And although Maori blood may be diluted or is that Pakeha blood diluted, it would be good if people celebrated their ethnicity. There's some amazing history out there about this family.
As for mentioning names, sorry about that, I forgot that this is the Secret Sect. All this information is available publically.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 11:49:56 GMT -5
That's not Maori culture, that's something sad to suck in tourists. Just wondering ... Are you suggesting these people are not Maori? Or are you suggesting that you have a better understanding of their cultural values than the Maori people do?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 13:59:10 GMT -5
They certainly are Maori, however the setting and what they are doing is a gimmick to suck in tourists. Today Maori go about their lives just like you and me, with clothes on. When I come to visit you, will you put on a bearskin and pick up a club and start grunting at me. I have seen these people in Qtown, the moko are fake, just drawn on and washed off later. Poking the tongue out is an act of aggression and in the context of the photo is wrong. I doubt that he feels aggressive towards the photographer but he might be pissed off standing there all day with tourists. But I guess it's all part of the display. To see a modern haka done in a truly aggressive manner watch an All Blacks against England or Oz or France. There you will see a brilliant display of haka done well. For a better representation of their culture I suggest you visit a couple of sites www.google.co.nz/search?q=kapa+haka&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=ipfUtErZB5oSYM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcS9EniM2C-nDI8AzZC6dnPfNNCoEjGmgsIEbXBfVIT7FH8kj3tUTw%253B500%253B306%253BjVDIHH8HNlANGM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.teara.govt.nz%25252Fen%25252Fphotograph%25252F2089%25252Fkapa-haka&sa=X&ei=4xy_UrP_McfMkwWx2YHgBA&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAQ&biw=1366&bih=576#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=ipfUtErZB5oSYM%3A%3BjVDIHH8HNlANGM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.teara.govt.nz%252Ffiles%252Fp-2089-enz.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.teara.govt.nz%252Fen%252Fphotograph%252F2089%252Fkapa-haka%3B500%3B306and to get a better feel for the Maori people read this please. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Warsand then if you are interested, do further reading on the Wairau and Waitara conflicts, The New Zealand Company and Edward Gibbon Wakefield. Then have a think about what it says in the bible about greed, honour, lying, falsehoods and so on. God Bless.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 15:21:01 GMT -5
Wobblyboot, My daughter sounded impressed with the efforts these people made to share their cultural values with her. She respected them and was glad to become acquainted. I have heard similar complaints to yours about the 'First Nation' (Canadian Indian) efforts to preserve their cultural values with their feathers and drums etc. We were invited to an Indian pow wow way out in the remote parts of Saskatchewan, on a reserve far from tourism (we were the only non-indians present) and found out that their culture is real and beautiful (and has nothing to do with trapping tourists) It is different from ours -- but quite beautiful. Here is a link to some of those pix. the www.themasseys.net/familypix/2005/Canada/05TripInSaskatchewan/-viewer.asp?slide=24Just a warning wobblyboot -- Don't despise cultures just because you don't understand them!!!
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Post by Mary on Dec 28, 2013 15:28:12 GMT -5
Loved the link to the pics you posted wobblyboot. Love your name too but there is no difference between those in the pics that you posted and that which Edgar's daughter saw. They nearly all have painted on mokos. There are some tattooed on but most are not. The haka - and remember these guys won the last rugby world cup. Play the video. www.newzealand.com/int/feature/haka/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 15:36:02 GMT -5
Edgar, I don't despise, I have a Maori wife and in some ways consider myself more Maori than Pakeha. Mary, That's not the point, most of those photos I posted a link to are photos from Kapa Haka contests or meetings or photos of Maori people doing their own thing without hamming it up for the tourist. That's the bit that I dislike. I think if one wants to learn more about another's culture then the best way is to be with them, live with them and observe and understand. There is so much we can learn which could help us all.
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Post by Mary on Dec 28, 2013 15:46:51 GMT -5
I agree that the best way to learn about another culture is to be with the people. That is why when I go overseas I prefer to go alone rather than on a tour, but then modern day culture is different from what we see on tourist trails which tries to represent the early days of the culture. People do not live native anymore and tourist spots try to show how they lived once upon a time which you will not get mixing with the people these days.
It is hard to see this kind of thing unless you go to some tourist spot. Most if not all Maoris have died out and they are so intergraded that it is very hard to find a genuine Maori. I see no difference from what Edgar's daughter saw than that in the photos you posted. It is all the same thing whereas one does it for a job while the others do it for competition. You could say the tourist places are the genuine and the others is just for competition or vice versa. Is a rugby player any less a rugby player if he turns professional or if he is an amateur. What I mean is that one is for fun and one is for money.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 17:20:49 GMT -5
hi Mary,
The kapa haka competitions are a way of keeping a part of their culture alive. There are also Te Reo schools which teach in the Maori language. I see that in some of the mining towns in Oz where there are a lot of Kiwis that they have started up their own Te Reo. All good stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 21:51:20 GMT -5
Loved the link to the pics you posted wobblyboot. Love your name too but there is no difference between those in the pics that you posted and that which Edgar's daughter saw. They nearly all have painted on mokos. There are some tattooed on but most are not. The haka - and remember these guys won the last rugby world cup. Play the video. www.newzealand.com/int/feature/haka/maybe the name should be gumboot
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 21:52:08 GMT -5
hi Mary, The kapa haka competitions are a way of keeping a part of their culture alive. There are also Te Reo schools which teach in the Maori language. I see that in some of the mining towns in Oz where there are a lot of Kiwis that they have started up their own Te Reo. All good stuff. hey wobbly you a mainlander?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2013 22:27:07 GMT -5
h
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