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Post by Mary on Nov 30, 2013 22:19:01 GMT -5
No resemblance to the Waldensians. Chapels, symbols, dating back to the 1500s, festivals. Long before William Irvine came on the scene. Most telling of all, "Catholic education for their children as it is closest to their own beliefs"
You have to rewrite your info Nathan. Cherie has the proof in her sites, all you have is one sentence from some worker who we know fudge the truth in order to keep the myth alive and nothing written about the Waldensians.
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 1, 2013 10:32:53 GMT -5
Christiansburg, I'm sorry your thread is being hijacked...You can request the Admin to move posts off the topic if you care to. So I'm not going to address the Irvine's sister theory, other than to say that in 25 years I've studied the history, I've only found 2 sources that mention this theory in writing...both are heresay and not primary documentation. Robert Darling didn't write that "Irvine heard it from his sister." Someone (George Gittins) claims he heard RobD speak on the early days and claims RobD referred to it, and the Impartial Reporter. There is also documentation where RobD refutes this story. There is nothing written by the 12 first workers. Click Here for TTT Link for in depth discussion about the "Heard it From the Sister Theory". Christiansburg, I appreciate your Review of Irvine Grey's book, and the spirit in which you wrote it. Like others, I found your review easy to read and well written. It sounds like you feel the time you spent studying and researching has been rewarding. I have heard that I.Grey self published 1500 books and has sold over 1,000 at this time. Hopefully, this thread can now get back on track and discuss your Review.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 1, 2013 15:04:55 GMT -5
Christiansburg, I'm sorry your thread is being hijacked...You can request the Admin to move posts off the topic if you care to. So I'm not going to address the Irvine's sister theory, other than to say that in 25 years I've studied the history, I've only found 2 sources that mention this theory in writing...both are heresay and not primary documentation. Robert Darling didn't write that "Irvine heard it from his sister." Someone (George Gittins) claims he heard RobD speak on the early days and claims RobD referred to it, and the Impartial Reporter. There is also documentation where RobD refutes this story. There is nothing written by the 12 first workers. Click Here for TTT Link for in depth discussion about the "Heard it From the Sister Theory". Christiansburg, I appreciate your Review of Irvine Grey's book, and the spirit in which you wrote it. Like others, I found your review easy to read and well written. It sounds like you feel the time you spent studying and researching has been rewarding. I have heard that I.Grey self published 1500 books and has sold over 1,000 at this time. Hopefully, this thread can now get back on track and discuss your Review. Thanks Cherie, No need to move it yet. Maybe someone will change the subject. I also heard George and Charlie refer to Wm.Irvins's sister as having a great influence on his thinking by speaking about how she had been spiritually moved. However, I have not chosen to talk about this either because there is no written documentation about that event. When I referred to the Waldenses it was not to established any form of succession but only to suggest that in the past there have been people who tried a 2x2 ministry.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 1, 2013 20:10:55 GMT -5
I didn't suggest that these two groups were part of a joint effort. My suggestion was that history seems to show that there was an effort to follow the same pattern in different eras of time. Both groups believed it was something that could be done. I was having a conversation with Nathan. Sorry, I should have quoted him. The problem with quoting Nathan, is then you re-post all his long cut & Paste. I know what you mean!
But you can escape that by using just only his own words & then li-lite & delete all his long cut & Paste!
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 9:14:56 GMT -5
Thanks! for sharing this information about George Walker! Wow! So Robert Darling and George Gittens were NOT TWO Crazy/senile workers after all. Can you tell us was it similar story that Robert Darling told to George Gittens that you heard, Christianburg? Thanks, in advance. From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Hi Nathan,While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story: One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling went into the ministry in Ireland 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France = Waldensians! some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish."I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research. RGR, December, 2005 George and Charlie did not discuss Robert D. or George Gittins but only referred to Wm.Irvine's sister. I was 23 when I heard this conversation but did not pickup on the names you mentioned. But as I mentioned I have not talked about the sister openly (until now) because it did not show up in anything that I read about him in the following years. These were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell Wm.Irvine about her experience." He did not elaborate beyond that.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 11:57:09 GMT -5
George and Charlie did not discuss Robert D. or George Gittins but only referred to Wm.Irvine's sister. I was 23 when I heard this conversation but did not pickup on the names you mentioned. But as I mentioned I have not talked about the sister openly (until now) because it did not show up in anything that I read about him in the following years. These were the words Charlie used: "It came into her heart to tell Wm.Irvine about her experience." He did not elaborate beyond that. Thanks, so much..... Was Charlie Hughes, George Walker's companion? Were there other people with you in the room when Charlie or George Walker telling you about William Irvine. Were there other witnesses or just you in the room?The discussion took place on special meeting rounds. George was a visiting worker at the time. There were about 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers about 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. I think most Christian believers will feel that God has always had a people he could call his own in every age. I don't think we can pass judgment on how they become his people. I am glad that is left up to him. As too "every age", unfortunately, we don't have the records on that and as you know he keeps the record that I suppose we will all see someday.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 13:57:23 GMT -5
The discussion took place on special meeting rounds. George was a visiting worker at the time. There were about 16 workers in the room. We all sat in silence and listened to the two of them. Of the 16 workers about 9 are dead and only two are still in the work. I think most Christian believers will feel that God has always had a people he could call his own in every age. I don't think we can pass judgment on how they become his people. I am glad that is left up to him. As too "every age", unfortunately, we don't have the records on that and as you know he keeps the record that I suppose we will all see someday. May I ask, were you one of the friends in the home, or one of the 16 workers in the group? How did William Irvine sister come up during 1963 special meetings rounds? Did some ask George Walker, and Charlie Hughes about the early days? or some thing? Thanks, again.I was one of the 16 workers there. I don't recall a question being asked in reference to anyone in particular. They talked about how the gospel had moved out from Ireland. More specifically it centered around Wm.Irvine and his inspiration to leave the Faith Mission and that he gave his sister credit for influencing him. As I mentioned the details of their conversation was not discussed but I'm sure whatever it was both George and Charlie knew. It would be nice to have those men back among us. I would ask a lot of questions.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:05:58 GMT -5
Given that the Waldensians had churches, monks etc it is obvious that Irvine was not a part of them.
Even if he got baptised by those people he didn't continue with them but still went off on his own and was not part of them.
He was a preacher on his own doing his own thing. Nothing said he joined or was part of this group.
We know he left the Faith Mission and went out on his own. Interesting the story only ever came from one person and no one else to witness it.
Easy to see the error in the story as it says Irvine heard the Gospel from his sister. Irvine was a preacher for the Faith Mission so he preached the Gospel and heard it long before his sister talked to him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 14:12:55 GMT -5
Did you see anything at the museum about the Waldensian Evangelical Church (Chiesa Evangelica Valdese, CEV) mentioned in Wikipedia? Wiki says 'it is an Italian Protestant denomination. The church was founded in the 12th century, and centuries later, after the Protestant Reformation, it adhered to Calvinist theology and became the Italian branch of the Reformed churches.[1][2] As such, the church is a member of the World Communion of Reformed Churches.[3]In 1967 the Waldensian Church, which has now 30,000 members in Italy (plus some 15,000 affiliates in Argentina and Uruguay),[4] was a founding member of the Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy (FCEI).[5] In 1974–1979 the CEV joined forces with the Italian Methodist Church (5,000) to form the Union of Methodist and Waldensian Churches.[2][6] [7]"
If this is the case, I gather there is a smaller group of Waldensians.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:16:28 GMT -5
A smaller group maybe, but Irvine was not a part of them.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 14:20:03 GMT -5
Given that the Waldensians had churches, monks etc it is obvious that Irvine was not a part of them. Even if he got baptised by those people he didn't continue with them but still went off on his own and was not part of them. He was a preacher on his own doing his own thing. Nothing said he joined or was part of this group. Also the Waldensians were never mentioned. I personally had never heard of the Waldensians until about 10 years ago. Our ministry is so different that I wondered if there were others who ever tried it before 1898. That is when I read about that group. A recent visit to their museum and personal conversations with them revealed that they seemed to change from what they had done earlier as a 2x2 group. I asked why they had changed and was told that they knew they had to give up some of their earlier ideas in order to survive. As you know they merged with the Presbyterians. None of the workers I knew years ago ever spoke of the Waldensians. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. I just don't know.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:23:11 GMT -5
And William Irvine was the founder. Even if he got baptised by the group he went out on his own, he was not a part of the group. One guy started the story and another repeated it. He could have easily made it up. He appeared to have been the only one who had said it.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:28:12 GMT -5
Remember Irvine was a part of the Faith Mission. You are basing it on one man's story. No evidence that the story was true. Robert Darling started the story and told it to others.
Again, it is not correct because it says that Irvine heard the gospel from his sister. No he didn't. He heard it years before, in fact he was a faith Mission worker.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 14:38:35 GMT -5
Did you see anything at the museum about the Waldensian Evangelical Church (Chiesa Evangelica Valdese, CEV) mentioned in Wikipedia? Wiki says 'it is an Italian Protestant denomination. The church was founded in the 12th century, and centuries later, after the Protestant Reformation, it adhered to Calvinist theology and became the Italian branch of the Reformed churches.[1][2] As such, the church is a member of the World Communion of Reformed Churches.[3]In 1967 the Waldensian Church, which has now 30,000 members in Italy (plus some 15,000 affiliates in Argentina and Uruguay),[4] was a founding member of the Federation of Evangelical Churches in Italy (FCEI).[5] In 1974–1979 the CEV joined forces with the Italian Methodist Church (5,000) to form the Union of Methodist and Waldensian Churches.[2][6] [7]" If this is the case, I gather there is a smaller group of Waldensians. Their museum is in Valdese, NC. Their roots are still in Italy and they are an active Presbyterian Church. One thing I did ask was whether they still had any one practicing as they had in the past. I was told that there is a small group of Evangelicals still in North West Italy. The historic marker in the city of Valdese states: "A religious body dating from the Middle Ages. The town was founded by members of this group in 1893." During a period of Roman Catholic dominance, they vowed to live out the teachings of the Bible in a time when only priests were allowed to read and preach the Bible. Going against the church's doctrines, the Waldenses were declared heretics. Though many were massacred, miraculously some survived centuries of Inquisition. Those remaining joined the Reformation in 1532 and suffered more persecution as Christians were killed or imprisoned. Eventually they were exiled into the Swiss Alps. The Edict of Emancipation in 1848 gave the Waldenses political and legal rights. Just a little bit of trivia. This group set up a bakery in Valdese and began selling the famous Sunbeam bread for many years.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 2, 2013 14:41:03 GMT -5
Remember Irvine was a part of the Faith Mission. You are basing it on one man's story. No evidence that the story was true. Robert Darling started the story and told it to others. Again, it is not correct because it says that Irvine heard the gospel from his sister. No he didn't. He heard it years before, in fact he was a faith Mission worker. Remember Irvine was a part of the faith Mission. You are basing it on one man's story. No evidence that the story was true. Thanks, mary, for reminding us of that.
If Irvine started the **TRUTH** because of the Waldensians, as nathan claims, then where does the Faith Mission fit in?
Cherie did a lot of work researching the **TRUTH** and there is ample documentation about WI being in the the Faith Mission before he started on his own.
I think that nathan is on a wild goose chase that he really has no document for but for some reason can't seem to let go of it.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:42:12 GMT -5
Another statement which can not be true.
"William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker."
First modern day worker for who - and into what ministry? He went out on his own and the Faith Mission already had workers out there so he was not the first of this new movement he started. So what a wild incorrect statement with no substance. This clearly shows he was the first worker (had not continued from Jesus)and started the church which those on this board attend or once attended.
Irvine had it so that all who professed through him became workers so it is not based on the Waldensians.
So this proves that William Irvine started his own church and was the first worker in it. This confirms all that Cherie has posted. That WI was the founder of this church.
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Post by fixit on Dec 2, 2013 14:45:59 GMT -5
Was Irvine's sister a 2x2 worker?
Who was her companion?
Who was her overseer?
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:46:54 GMT -5
Irvine's sister worked for some people who belonged to some group.
All this letter does is prove that Irvine was the first worker and started his own group. Which is what has been said all the long. It proves no apostolic line. Irvine was the first worker of the group that we once attended.
Irvine was put out of the Faith Mission. The 2x2s were fed up with him too and put him out. Seems as if he had problems with everyone, every where.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:50:37 GMT -5
So who was Irvine a worker with? If he was the first then that meant the Waldensians did not have workers so he could not have copied them. William obviously started on his own and formed his own church over time.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 14:53:33 GMT -5
what has changed - nothing. WI was the first worker just as Cherie has said all the long. There as no one in this church before Irvine. He started it. No worker before him so no apostolic line back to Jesus.
yes, Irvine had major problems. Where ever he went.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 15:15:23 GMT -5
Irvine's sister worked for some people who belonged to some group. All this letter does is prove that Irvine was the first worker and started his own group. Which is what has been said all the long. It proves no apostolic line. Irvine was the first worker of the group that we once attended. Irvine was put out of the Faith Mission. The 2x2s were fed up with him too and put him out. Seems as if he had problems with everyone, every where. I think we are all struggling over something that may not be that important. Cherie is right Wm.Irvine is the one who emerged as our contemporary. Long's journal does verify that in a written format. But also it is apparent that Irvine had inspiration and his sister had a lot to do with that. I personally heard that. That being said he went out on his own with no connection with the Waldensians. I can't see that any of us here are really contradicting each other but what we are doing is discussing things that really don't matter. We may all have blinders on. This matter is all about what we have during our time. You are right about Irvine. He went astray in his thinking on quite a few things. Just wanted to clear up some issues. Can we live in peace with each other? I hope so.
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Post by christiansburg on Dec 2, 2013 15:15:34 GMT -5
Irvine's sister worked for some people who belonged to some group. All this letter does is prove that Irvine was the first worker and started his own group. Which is what has been said all the long. It proves no apostolic line. Irvine was the first worker of the group that we once attended. Irvine was put out of the Faith Mission. The 2x2s were fed up with him too and put him out. Seems as if he had problems with everyone, every where. I think we are all struggling over something that may not be that important. Cherie is right Wm.Irvine is the one who emerged as our contemporary. Long's journal does verify that in a written format. But also it is apparent that Irvine had inspiration and his sister had a lot to do with that. I personally heard that. That being said he went out on his own with no connection with the Waldensians. I can't see that any of us here are really contradicting each other but what we are doing is discussing things that really don't matter. We may all have blinders on. This matter is all about what we have during our time. You are right about Irvine. He went astray in his thinking on quite a few things. Just wanted to clear up some issues. Can we live in peace with each other? I hope so.
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Post by Mary on Dec 2, 2013 15:23:31 GMT -5
What did he copy from the Waldensians because he was the first modern day worker? Obviously he was not part of them if they already had workers and obviously he was the first worker of the new movement he started. Every one becoming workers was Irvine's own invention. he appeared to have been far more influenced by the Faith Mission than anything to do with the Waldensians. The Waldensians had monks, chapels etc from the early days.
Doug Parker Author of The Secret Sect interviewed a number of those first workers and none of them mentioned the story Robert Darling did. Only Robert told it. Not saying it is not true but if you are to believe it then you have to believe Irvine was the first worker or that the Waldensians did not have workers and that Irvine was the first which contradicts the history of the Waldensians.
First to emerge as your contemporary or the first to start the new movement/group which this board is about.
The matter is what brought our grandparents into the group and the lie that was told that they are from Jesus and have no early founder which fooled many.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 15:49:36 GMT -5
PROFESSOR OLIVER W. ROLFE:
"I met Robert Darling in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then traveled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970. In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house. There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this." [by Oliver William Rolfe, Ph.D., Stanford University, 1967, Professor Emeritus (Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures) University of Montana, Missoula, Montana]
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Post by fixit on Dec 2, 2013 15:58:43 GMT -5
The Waldenses suffered greatly at the hands of the Pope's followers. Its pathetic how far away so-called Christians got from the teaching of Jesus:
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 2, 2013 16:27:38 GMT -5
So who was Irvine a worker with? If he was the first then that meant the Waldensians did not have workers so he could not have copied them. William obviously started on his own and formed his own church over time. According to Waldensians history they had internal problems! Many of their own members left the MAIN group from 15-18th century to join the Protestant reformation.... However, a Remnant of the TRUE Waldensians left or survived that carried on the Old Tradition, teachings, belief passed down from MANY generations,.... That who William Irvine sister met....... Remember, William Irvine's family were Presbyterians! and their ancestors LEFT the Waldensians 200 yrs before that... Perhaps, some of that knowledge pass to some of them. God will NEVER left His church/assembly of believers alone on the earth! there will always be the ministry is in the lead of the church. Like levitical priesthood to be leaders among the 12 tribes. S0, -why does it make any different if William Irvine's family were Presbyterians?
Irvine was from Scotland.
The Presbyterian church traces its ancestry back primarily to England and Scotland.
So how much does that show any kind of proof of anything?
As for God NEVER leaving HIS church alone on the earth, -that is only if you assume that God actually exists!
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 2, 2013 16:30:48 GMT -5
WHOA, Nate...don't get so excited!
Where's the proof that Wm Irvine himself told the various ones you listed?
Are you leaping to conclusions again?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 16:39:50 GMT -5
PROFESSOR OLIVER W. ROLFE: "I met Robert Darling in 1958 at the Albuquerque convention; I then traveled with him to the three Mexican conventions. That is, he asked me to drive him in my car. I saw him every day for a period of weeks; he rode with me back to the Midwest where I was living at the time. We became good friends and corresponded regularly until his death in 1970. In 1967, he came to California, where I was then living, and I met him at the Gilroy conventions. He stayed with me between the two conventions, and we had great fun sight-seeing in the Bay Area. On this latter occasion I asked him about the beginnings of the church; he told me that it was started in Ireland by one man (whom he did not name, but I assumed to be William Irvine) after his sister had frozen to death because their parents had shut her out of the house. There was no mention at all of Switzerland. In fact, in all my discussions with him there was never the slightest implication that the church dated historically from an earlier time. He seemed to be somewhat distressed that so many people seemed to believe this." [by Oliver William Rolfe, Ph.D., Stanford University, 1967, Professor Emeritus (Modern and Classical Languages and Literatures) University of Montana, Missoula, Montana] hmmmmm.... I wonder why Robert Darling talked to George Gittens in great details about WI sister and NOT this man who said he was a good friend of Robert D. We read Robert D. spoke at conventions in Canada and talk to them about WI sister, to some workers in Calf. Donald Fisher, about WI sister....
So, let me ask you again Why? Robert D. mentioned so little of information about WI early days to this man, William Rolfe.Well, I do know that GeorgeG is a great storyteller, gifted embellisher, and good entertainer. George was always fun to listen to his preaching, but even the most naive knew he was adding all sorts of colour to his stories. I also happen personally know the person who wrote George's account and have a great deal of confidence that he got George's story accurately. However, I think George's story grew over time. I also know that a trained Stanford man is more than likely to get the story straight, as he would have had many years of intense training to do so. The fact that he relates Mr.Darling's distress over people believing that the church extends prior to Irvine speaks well of Mr.Darling's integrity. The sister connection is entirely plausible as told by Dr. Rolfe regarding the death of Irvine's sister. However, when stories are introduced that bring in mystery people (from the Swiss Alps no less), it is a red flag for a myth. I will also suggest that Dr.Jaenen likely rues the day he ever made any vague reference back to the Waldensians and the 2x2's in the same speech to the United College in Winnipeg back around that time. By the looks of the dates, Dr.Rolfe heard the story from Mr.Darling before Dr.Jaenen's famous speech, while George heard the story after Dr.Jaenen's speech........this is likely no coincidence. It is most likely that his work and these stories are all connected by rumour and conclusion-jumping. As we know now, Dr.Jaenen repudiates any connection of the 2x2's to Waldensians. Frankly Nathan, I will go with the recollection and work of doctoral scholars before I would go with GeorgeG's stories, even as delightful a fellow as George is.
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