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Post by Mary on Nov 18, 2013 2:48:55 GMT -5
Are you calling Paul a liar or just mislead? I believe the Bible do you? Of course we know Peter was married do you? Can you tell me where Jesus said that an apostle has to be single?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 3:04:32 GMT -5
No, Jesus never said a preacher had to be single. It's that silly "example" stuff which apparently doesn't apply. In fact He gave quite precise instructions as to how the Ministry was to be conducted - and just about all of it gets ignored as being unnecessary. And the entire Ministry after Jesus is considered irrelevant.
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Post by Mary on Nov 18, 2013 3:50:24 GMT -5
Maybe you should tell that to virgo. He seems to think that it is only the spirit that counts and not the way the things are done in the flesh. That's the way I interpreted what he wrote anyway. If Jesus didn't say that they had to be single, why do the workers have to be single - after all they are following the example of Jesus and now you are saying that is not in Jesus rule book? How come it is the workers rule book for workers then?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 3:54:10 GMT -5
"Flesh" can mean meat; human will; the physical aspects of things.
Yes, there's "spirit" to the Gospel, but there's also the physical requirements of laity and Ministry. Verse by verse, weight by weight, I suspect there's more law in the New Testament than in the Old. Maybe one day I could count those verses, and force the argument to shift. Sigh...
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Post by Mary on Nov 18, 2013 4:10:16 GMT -5
So did Jesus make a rule that anyone who wants to go into the 'work' must be single?
It is the physical aspects of the ministry that the workers point to as their's being the only right ministry when in fact it has been shown many times that the workers ministry is lacking when compared to how Jesus sent the apostles. Not allowing married people, and choosing women are 2 things that the workers do that Jesus did not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 4:52:29 GMT -5
In considering your analysis Bert, many will ask the question "Why then did Jesus choose married men in the first place, if things were to change later?"
However, they should not be fooled. Jesus had to observe very strict Jewish employment laws against discrimination. He was obliged to "hire" at least some married men in his messenger service. Future workers were not hindered by such constraints and could freely employ common sense. Also it was against Jewish practice to employ female priests, so Jesus could only employ men. It's all there if we look for it! now ram you being a christian would know why Jesus called them married or not where do you get the idea He hired them? Did Jesus call them from their previous occupations into another? Is Jesus not the Good Shepherd and his servants hirelings? Did not the 11 remaining Apostles desert Jesus when they saw danger coming? Did they thus not prove themselves to be hirelings? Did they not freely receive their upkeep in various ways in return for their hired status? Is their greater reward for their hireling service not to sit down on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Where do you get the idea that they were NOT hired hands, inter alia?
they crucified Him because He didn't follow their law. Nay, but rather, he did not follow their "interpretation" of God given laws. Now, they were no different from just about any other religious circles. Some even spiritually crucify their wounded brethren for not following "their" laws, written or unwritten.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Do you think Jesus chose those ladies or did they have noting to do with Him? Yep Virgs. More hired hands. NB. Phil was obviously married at some point. He had 4 unmarried daughters who spread the word of God. Do we know the age of the daughters? Do we know when they did get married? Are we assuming they never married? Are we assuming that if they did get married then they would have stopped spreading the word of God? Not enough info for me Virgs me lad!
Virgs, just in case you are not getting the point that I was trying to make earlier, I am attempting to address the matter of people making things fit their own perceived ideas, no matter how much contrary information there is, or "unfitting" beliefs are.
It's a bit like this. Dogs by nature do not drive cars. Nor do they ever show any interest in even attempting to drive cars. Yet some will try and fit the belief that dogs can drive cars and will go to great lengths to even train a dog to drive a car, despite the fact the beast can neither read the Highway Code, nor are its front paws designed to grasp a steering wheel. However that does not stop folks fitting in a dog to the car driver role. We even see photographs of it sometimes. In practice a dog trained to drive a car is a very unsafe thing for other road users and owners of property. Very unfitting!
Now it doesn't end there. As you know a dog is born with a natural coat of hair to keep it warm from head to paws. However, some perceive that a dog needs a cap and a human coat in order to keep it warm and to shelter it from the elements and they even go to great lengths to "fit in" a dog to their own ideas by dressing them up with caps and coat, all of which is inconvenient to the dog and is not what the dog was designed for. Anyway I'm sure you have seen photos of this sort of stuff?
Recapping. It's all about "fitting in." This is a curse of mankind. If we don't become square pegs in order to fit in to the round hole beliefs of others, we get crucified in one form or another. Dogs that refuse to be trained to drive cars or refuse to bow to man made fashion sense probably get taken down to the vets for a premature entry into permanent rest. All because they will not fit in!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 5:09:55 GMT -5
It makes absolute sense for messengers taking the Gospel message to far flung, remote or dangerous places, as missionaries pioneering the spread, to either remain single or to leave their wives at home, at least whilst they are away on that mission. It is not commandment, but common sense.
However, the picture doesn't end there. It is the belief that that is the only way the Gospel can be spread that is extremely erroneous. Jesus himself promised to send teachers, prophets, pastors, evangelists, etc to the church "for the perfecting of the church." Most of these were localised teachers and preachers, mostly with wives, etc. Notice, the church "CANNOT" be perfected through an itinerant ministry ONLY!
Corralling all of these roles stipulated by Jesus, into an itinerant role only, is a major mistake.
Every true Christian is called (hired for Virgs' sake) to witness for Jesus through a variety of ministerial means, including teaching and preaching the Gospel, according to our spiritual gifts.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 5:27:59 GMT -5
Quote - " Not allowing married people, and choosing women are 2 things that the workers do that Jesus did not." I can think of others, Mary. Preaching to the Gentiles is one - remember the astonishment of Peter and friends when they saw the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit? And miracles - Workers do no miracles (that I know of) And yes, as you noted - Jesus didn't have women preachers - Well, at least The Twelve, representing the twelve tribes of Israel, were not women. But the "Seventy" Doesn't say. We know other preachers were women.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 5:36:34 GMT -5
It makes absolute sense for messengers taking the Gospel message to far flung, remote or dangerous places, as missionaries pioneering the spread, to either remain single or to leave their wives at home, at least whilst they are away on that mission. It is not commandment, but common sense. However, the picture doesn't end there. It is the belief that that is the only way the Gospel can be spread that is extremely erroneous. Jesus himself promised to send teachers, prophets, pastors, evangelists, etc to the church "for the perfecting of the church." Most of these were localised teachers and preachers, mostly with wives, etc. Notice, the church "CANNOT" be perfected through an itinerant ministry ONLY! Corralling all of these roles stipulated by Jesus, into an itinerant role only, is a major mistake. Every true Christian is called (hired for Virgs' sake) to witness for Jesus through a variety of ministerial means, including teaching and preaching the Gospel, according to our spiritual gifts.
Yes, I do like that "Clowns for Jesus." Really touches me, it does. And there's that Hill Song "rockers for Jesus" which really gets 'em in. And there's those "praise the loot" televangelists - I mean, takes money to do this stuff. And there's the gold rings, crowns, pallium, chasuble, cloaks, red slippers and of course that gorgeous gold and silver "Cross of St.Peter" which impresses those who think The Kingdom is about wealth. Here Ram we appeal to people who ordinarily would never have found appeal with Jesus in his austerity, poverty and boring preaching.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 5:55:24 GMT -5
It makes absolute sense for messengers taking the Gospel message to far flung, remote or dangerous places, as missionaries pioneering the spread, to either remain single or to leave their wives at home, at least whilst they are away on that mission. It is not commandment, but common sense. However, the picture doesn't end there. It is the belief that that is the only way the Gospel can be spread that is extremely erroneous. Jesus himself promised to send teachers, prophets, pastors, evangelists, etc to the church "for the perfecting of the church." Most of these were localised teachers and preachers, mostly with wives, etc. Notice, the church "CANNOT" be perfected through an itinerant ministry ONLY! Corralling all of these roles stipulated by Jesus, into an itinerant role only, is a major mistake. Every true Christian is called (hired for Virgs' sake) to witness for Jesus through a variety of ministerial means, including teaching and preaching the Gospel, according to our spiritual gifts. Yes, I do like that "Clowns for Jesus." Really touches me, it does. And there's that Hill Song "rockers for Jesus" which really gets 'em in. And there's those "praise the loot" televangelists - I mean, takes money to do this stuff. And there's the gold rings, crowns, pallium, chasuble, cloaks, red slippers and of course that gorgeous gold and silver "Cross of St.Peter" which impresses those who think The Kingdom is about wealth. Here Ram we appeal to people who ordinarily would never have found appeal with Jesus in his austerity, poverty and boring preaching. Come on Bert! It is a round hole. Stop trying to ignore the reality of that by conjuring up ridiculous square pegs in order to dismiss it because some of your belief pegs don't fit into it. Remember, I (yes me, the Ram!) have given you a credibility rating of 92%. I am looking for an excuse to bump that up to 95% (but no more), so don't make life difficult for me. I just about did it with your non-Trin stance, but wasn't sure how Virgs would have reacted to that? ps I think Jesus' preaching was anything but boring? More than a few got pretty cheesed off with it. Made them out to be hypocrites, liars, unsaved, out of favour with God and stuff like that. If he was just boring, people would have just ignored him. Instead they got really mad at him. He wouldn't shut up despite being told to. Well you know how things happened in the end.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 6:11:16 GMT -5
Quote - "ps I think Jesus' preaching was anything but boring? More than a few got pretty cheesed off with it. Made them out to be hypocrites, liars, unsaved, out of favour with God and stuff like that. If he was just boring, people would have just ignored him. Instead they got really mad at him. He wouldn't shut up despite being told to. Well you know how things happened in the end."
Ram if you just preach as Jesus preached you would quickly lose your audience. There is no "relevance" to "contemporary issues" - global warming, poverty, gay marriage etc.. No provision for the kids. No sports to get in those guy who would "love" to go to church but it "clashes" with their cricket. His basic posture of simplicity and poverty seemed quite demeaning. He seemed to think you actually had to go DO SOMETHING rather than just listen. And all this stuff about "taking up the cross", "selling all" "follow me" etc is quite archaic. He even preached as if He BELIEVED the "biblical myths" were actually true!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 8:18:12 GMT -5
Quote - " ps I think Jesus' preaching was anything but boring? More than a few got pretty cheesed off with it. Made them out to be hypocrites, liars, unsaved, out of favour with God and stuff like that. If he was just boring, people would have just ignored him. Instead they got really mad at him. He wouldn't shut up despite being told to. Well you know how things happened in the end."
Ram if you just preach as Jesus preached you would quickly lose your audience. There is no "relevance" to "contemporary issues" - global warming, poverty, gay marriage etc.. No provision for the kids. No sports to get in those guy who would "love" to go to church but it "clashes" with their cricket. His basic posture of simplicity and poverty seemed quite demeaning. He seemed to think you actually had to go DO SOMETHING rather than just listen. And all this stuff about "taking up the cross", "selling all" "follow me" etc is quite archaic. He even preached as if He BELIEVED the "biblical myths" were actually true! Jesus was not considered a boring preacher at all. Almost all of his preaching was done by parable, a very entertaining form of teaching/preaching. Try to put yourself back into a society which didn't have the TV that you enjoy so much today and you will understand better that Jesus provided plenty of entertainment for people even though many just went for the entertainment and didn't get the purpose of the message. Do you really think that Jesus got an audience of thousands just for being a boring preacher?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 8:36:20 GMT -5
Quote - " ps I think Jesus' preaching was anything but boring? More than a few got pretty cheesed off with it. Made them out to be hypocrites, liars, unsaved, out of favour with God and stuff like that. If he was just boring, people would have just ignored him. Instead they got really mad at him. He wouldn't shut up despite being told to. Well you know how things happened in the end."
Ram if you just preach as Jesus preached you would quickly lose your audience. There is no "relevance" to "contemporary issues" - global warming, poverty, gay marriage etc.. No provision for the kids. No sports to get in those guy who would "love" to go to church but it "clashes" with their cricket. His basic posture of simplicity and poverty seemed quite demeaning. He seemed to think you actually had to go DO SOMETHING rather than just listen. And all this stuff about "taking up the cross", "selling all" "follow me" etc is quite archaic. He even preached as if He BELIEVED the "biblical myths" were actually true!
Well Bert, these "myths" were well received as truth because the audience had been brought up to believe them to have been factual events.
Why spoil a good story, eh?
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Post by jondough on Nov 18, 2013 9:51:13 GMT -5
Please point the verses where Jesus preached to the congregation;
1. The Ministry 2. Meeting in the home
2nd point;
Jesus has given us some very good news (Gospel) to enjoy, share with others, and spread the message to the rest of the world......It really blows me away that anyone would think that the most important thing is how this message is spread to the rest of the world. So much so that they condemn others as "outsiders". The MESSAGE is what is important!!!! If the message is changed/altered in anyway.....thats a huge problem!!! The message is HIM.....The message is NOT how the message should be delivered!! How do people not see this very simple concept!!??
I tell you to invite the neighborhood to my sons wedding. You get them all there....Do I care if you rode you bike, told them personally, held a neighborhood meeting and told them this way, invited them in your home and told them this way.......NO!! The important thing is that you invited them!!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 9:54:10 GMT -5
Please point the verses where Jesus preached to the congregation; 1. The Ministry 2. Meeting in the home 2nd point; Jesus has given us some very good news (Gospel) to enjoy, share with others, and spread the message to the rest of the world......It really blows me away that anyone would think that the most important thing is how this message is spread to the rest of the world. So much so that they condemn others as "outsiders". The MESSAGE is what is important!!!! If the message is changed/altered in anyway.....thats a huge problem!!! The message is HIM.....The message is NOT how the message should be delivered!! How do people not see this very simple concept!!?? I tell you to invite the neighborhood to my sons wedding. You get them all there....Do I care if you rode you bike, told them personally, held a neighborhood meeting and told them this way, invited them in your home and told them this way.......NO!! The important thing is that you invited them!! Unfortunately for some, the ministry IS the message.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 18, 2013 10:01:18 GMT -5
So you can't say the workers are following the ministry that Jesus set up and go out like the apostles went then can they? It was good enough for the apostles but not good enough for the workers? Next they will start working and say that it is not practical to go out without money any more then. Make the rules and change them as you go along to suit your own self. the ministry is not about following that what is of the human flesh but it is of following what is of the Spirit Jesus didn't call the Apostles to follow after the flesh but after the Spirit how many Apostles in the Bible were actually show to have a wife and how many not? Jesus called his Apostles to give them extended and necessary education on the interpretation of the scriptures that they all had to grow up by(bible college, eh?)...how these scriptures fore told of Jesus' c oming and the reasons he was coming..... And I'm not certain, but perhaps think your reference in following the Spirit, you're speaking about the Holy Spirit....HOWEVER Jesus did not particularly say in direct words to "follow the Spirit", HE DID tell them to "follow thou me"....did he not?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 18, 2013 10:13:33 GMT -5
virgo, surely expendiency is not a decent enough justification for the impact of a single, celibrate mistry. why not? Seems to me only some of the friends believe that "celibacy" is followed by the workers as part of the things they've given up in order to be in the work...however the truth of the matter is, there has been workers who were in the work, some thought them celibate but truth says they were not. And yes, I know that there have truly been workers who stood the hard line of celibacy and sometimes they were the very one who could not stay in the work...they left and got married as most people desire to do. There's something in the young adult that presses them to get a mate and have home, children and jobs...... It has become very evident to some of us that the workers have really sacrificed very little in order to be in the work...they havre it all except the legal papers to say they are married or have a mate and they don't have to pay taxes on a house that has their name on it nor do they have to pay salary taxes nor personal property taxes. And you know, it seems to me that they should perhaps pay the taxes on the vehicle that is more theirs then the title owners!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Nov 18, 2013 10:23:57 GMT -5
Quote - " Not allowing married people, and choosing women are 2 things that the workers do that Jesus did not." I can think of others, Mary. Preaching to the Gentiles is one - remember the astonishment of Peter and friends when they saw the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit? And miracles - Workers do no miracles (that I know of) And yes, as you noted - Jesus didn't have women preachers - Well, at least The Twelve, representing the twelve tribes of Israel, were not women. But the "Seventy" Doesn't say. We know other preachers were women. Since Jesus was sending the twelve and also the 70 into the Jews' territory, Jesus would NOT have assumed it practical to send women for women were much more subservient in the culture of the children of Israel then in the Gentiles....though we do read of some women in the OT who were extraordinary enough to be the major player in certain stories. So the thought of JEsus putting women into the gospel mission and likely they would have been treated less then they' should have, I don't see Jesus doing that. As to the women who "followed" Jesus and ministered to him, they did nothing more then that except for sitting at his feet and learning of him.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 14:27:25 GMT -5
Well here's the Problem. Peter was already married. He couldn't get a divorce because it wouldn't have been appropriate. A number of the Apostles were already married. I doubt many in the proceeding generations were married to women because they were to be married to Christ. The life of an itinerant minister largely precluded marriage. Witness Paul in his travels and the number of partners he had. .....r u saying Paul was gay. ?
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Post by kencoolidge on Nov 18, 2013 15:29:32 GMT -5
now ram you being a christian would know why Jesus called them married or not where do you get the idea He hired them? Did Jesus call them from their previous occupations into another? Is Jesus not the Good Shepherd and his servants hirelings? Did not the 11 remaining Apostles desert Jesus when they saw danger coming? Did they thus not prove themselves to be hirelings? Did they not freely receive their upkeep in various ways in return for their hired status? Is their greater reward for their hireling service not to sit down on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Where do you get the idea that they were NOT hired hands, inter alia?
they crucified Him because He didn't follow their law. Nay, but rather, he did not follow their "interpretation" of God given laws. Now, they were no different from just about any other religious circles. Some even spiritually crucify their wounded brethren for not following "their" laws, written or unwritten.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Do you think Jesus chose those ladies or did they have noting to do with Him? Yep Virgs. More hired hands. NB. Phil was obviously married at some point. He had 4 unmarried daughters who spread the word of God. Do we know the age of the daughters? Do we know when they did get married? Are we assuming they never married? Are we assuming that if they did get married then they would have stopped spreading the word of God? Not enough info for me Virgs me lad!
Virgs, just in case you are not getting the point that I was trying to make earlier, I am attempting to address the matter of people making things fit their own perceived ideas, no matter how much contrary information there is, or "unfitting" beliefs are.
It's a bit like this. Dogs by nature do not drive cars. Nor do they ever show any interest in even attempting to drive cars. Yet some will try and fit the belief that dogs can drive cars and will go to great lengths to even train a dog to drive a car, despite the fact the beast can neither read the Highway Code, nor are its front paws designed to grasp a steering wheel. However that does not stop folks fitting in a dog to the car driver role. We even see photographs of it sometimes. In practice a dog trained to drive a car is a very unsafe thing for other road users and owners of property. Very unfitting!
Now it doesn't end there. As you know a dog is born with a natural coat of hair to keep it warm from head to paws. However, some perceive that a dog needs a cap and a human coat in order to keep it warm and to shelter it from the elements and they even go to great lengths to "fit in" a dog to their own ideas by dressing them up with caps and coat, all of which is inconvenient to the dog and is not what the dog was designed for. Anyway I'm sure you have seen photos of this sort of stuff?
Recapping. It's all about "fitting in." This is a curse of mankind. If we don't become square pegs in order to fit in to the round hole beliefs of others, we get crucified in one form or another. Dogs that refuse to be trained to drive cars or refuse to bow to man made fashion sense probably get taken down to the vets for a premature entry into permanent rest. All because they will not fit in!
Ram Yuo made no reference to dogs liking meat and having little interest in gardening and fruit of such ken
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Post by blandie on Nov 18, 2013 15:29:57 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 9:5 says 'It is not that we have no right to take along a sister as wife even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas is it?' which says concretely that the apostles other than Paul were all married and took along their believing wives. The phrase 'even as the rest" literally says that all others except Paul (and perhaps whoever was with him) and he is saying that all the other apostles were married. Yeah Paul elsewhere gives the thought that marriage was a cause of trouble given the impending persecutions but he never forbade marriage or made that a condition for anything other than he did lay down the rule that overseers and elders must be married.
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Post by jondough on Nov 18, 2013 15:35:51 GMT -5
Nathan,
I'll ask once more - maybe I wasn't clear....
I did not ask "show me where Jesus preached TO the ministry". I asked where Jesus preached "The ministry" to the congregation. You know something similar to this: To the congregation: "unless the ministry goes 2X2 and are homeless - they are false prophets" .
i didn't ask for one of the ways they met in the New Testament. I asked where Jesus said "unless you meet in the home, you are a false church".....where Jesus told the congregation anything that affect.
hint hint....when I go to where you point in my bible....it should be written in red letters
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Post by fixit on Nov 18, 2013 16:33:47 GMT -5
I did not ask "show me where Jesus preached TO the ministry". I asked where Jesus preached "The ministry" to the congregation. You know something similar to this: To the congregation: "unless the ministry goes 2X2 and are homeless - they are false prophets" . Jesus was more concerned with "ministry" than "the ministry".
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Post by jondough on Nov 18, 2013 16:40:16 GMT -5
1) JohnD Nathan, I'll ask once more - maybe I wasn't clear.... I did not ask "show me where Jesus preached TO the ministry". I asked where Jesus preached "The ministry" to the congregation. You know something similar to this: To the congregation: "unless the ministry goes 2X2 and are homeless - they are false prophets." ~~ Nathanb: Jesus was speaking to the multitude of congregation unbelievers and his disciples were among them! Matthew 5:1-2 and verse 29. Jesus apostolic preachers Vaudois, and those like them have continued Jesus Great Commission for almost 2000 yrs! So, it must be important method for them NOT to change or deviate from Jesus teachings. Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”2) JDi didn't ask for one of the ways they met in the New Testament. I asked where Jesus said "unless you meet in the home, you are a false church".....where Jesus told the congregation anything that affect. ~~ The True followers of Christ (Vaudios, and those like them) have continued to have fellowship/worship gathering in the homes for almost 2000 yrs.... Doesn't that SAY something! They obeyed the teachings of Jesus and did NOT deviate from it.no
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 17:44:13 GMT -5
Ram Yuo made no reference to dogs liking meat and having little interest in gardening and fruit of such ken
Ken, even I try to maintain a bit of decorum on this board sometimes, just sometimes.
Yes dogs like meat, but they also have a keen interest in gardening, at least the ones I have been familiar with. There are some healthy trees and bushes out there that owe their state of health to being fed and watered on a regular basis by canine care. No doubt some fruit bushes and trees are likewise and we in turn benefit from the dogged determination to water every tree they pass.
Yes dogs are very good and caring gardeners.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 23:53:45 GMT -5
Are you calling Paul a liar or just mislead? I believe the Bible do you? Of course we know Peter was married do you? Can you tell me where Jesus said that an apostle has to be single? are your glasses foggy or summit?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2013 23:56:45 GMT -5
Maybe you should tell that to virgo. He seems to think that it is only the spirit that counts and not the way the things are done in the flesh. That's the way I interpreted what he wrote anyway. If Jesus didn't say that they had to be single, why do the workers have to be single - after all they are following the example of Jesus and now you are saying that is not in Jesus rule book? How come it is the workers rule book for workers then? why would bert need to tell me of something i already know and he knows i do the flesh is the human will
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 0:09:14 GMT -5
now ram you being a christian would know why Jesus called them married or not where do you get the idea He hired them? Did Jesus call them from their previous occupations into another? Is Jesus not the Good Shepherd and his servants hirelings? Did not the 11 remaining Apostles desert Jesus when they saw danger coming? Did they thus not prove themselves to be hirelings? Did they not freely receive their upkeep in various ways in return for their hired status? Is their greater reward for their hireling service not to sit down on the twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel? Where do you get the idea that they were NOT hired hands, inter alia?
they crucified Him because He didn't follow their law. Nay, but rather, he did not follow their "interpretation" of God given laws. Now, they were no different from just about any other religious circles. Some even spiritually crucify their wounded brethren for not following "their" laws, written or unwritten.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. Do you think Jesus chose those ladies or did they have noting to do with Him? Yep Virgs. More hired hands. NB. Phil was obviously married at some point. He had 4 unmarried daughters who spread the word of God. Do we know the age of the daughters? Do we know when they did get married? Are we assuming they never married? Are we assuming that if they did get married then they would have stopped spreading the word of God? Not enough info for me Virgs me lad!
Virgs, just in case you are not getting the point that I was trying to make earlier, I am attempting to address the matter of people making things fit their own perceived ideas, no matter how much contrary information there is, or "unfitting" beliefs are.
It's a bit like this. Dogs by nature do not drive cars. Nor do they ever show any interest in even attempting to drive cars. Yet some will try and fit the belief that dogs can drive cars and will go to great lengths to even train a dog to drive a car, despite the fact the beast can neither read the Highway Code, nor are its front paws designed to grasp a steering wheel. However that does not stop folks fitting in a dog to the car driver role. We even see photographs of it sometimes. In practice a dog trained to drive a car is a very unsafe thing for other road users and owners of property. Very unfitting!
Now it doesn't end there. As you know a dog is born with a natural coat of hair to keep it warm from head to paws. However, some perceive that a dog needs a cap and a human coat in order to keep it warm and to shelter it from the elements and they even go to great lengths to "fit in" a dog to their own ideas by dressing them up with caps and coat, all of which is inconvenient to the dog and is not what the dog was designed for. Anyway I'm sure you have seen photos of this sort of stuff?
Recapping. It's all about "fitting in." This is a curse of mankind. If we don't become square pegs in order to fit in to the round hole beliefs of others, we get crucified in one form or another. Dogs that refuse to be trained to drive cars or refuse to bow to man made fashion sense probably get taken down to the vets for a premature entry into permanent rest. All because they will not fit in!
if you hire someone would you pay them monies? can one hire without some sort of remuneration? when they made their own interpretation of God laws they were no longer Gods laws but their own those ladies weren't hired they were chosen nah man you're barking up the wrong tree i ask you fitting in with whom?
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