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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 21:20:59 GMT -5
haroldjj I believe you kinda leave yourself flatfooted when you deny that Jesus and the Fathers are one. So many references to the godhead or 3 in one and the term trinity pervades most who are bible scholars. Sad ken Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven? CD! Yes we will all be one...and we will all be members of the "body of Christ".....He is the head of that body, but the rest of us(spiritually) will be menbers of the body of Christ OR IF you prefer we will all be of the "bride" that has adorned herself in white robes and readied herself for the bridegroom (who is Jesus) Either way you look at it...yes, those who have that faith in Jesus Christ while on the earth WILL be part of him in some form or another....also Jesus told his Apostles that he was going to go and prepare "a place" for them for there were many mansions in His Father's kingdom...but still it is just a singular "place" for them and he did NOT say a "place" for each one singularly etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 21:30:35 GMT -5
Speaking of flatfooted Ken, I suppose this makes everyone God just like Jesus: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me." I think you just have to acknowledge that 2x2's have good biblical reasons to believe what they do on this subject even if you don't agree with them. Hopefully you don't come to the same conclusion as Mr.Grey that they are a "particularly dangerous cult" when they actually have given a lot of serious thought to this and came up with a conclusion that is different from the crowds. It's not a touchy subject at all Ken. If you believe Jesus which I know you do, Jesus told people that they themselves have the power to forgive their own sin. All you have to do to exercise that power is to forgive others. "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you." So Jesus exercised that same power. He forgave others and his heavenly Father also did so. It was the Pharisees who made a big deal out of him doing that and tried to make him into God, which is identical to your argument. I suppose if they understood his teachings, they would have hung up all his followers too for forgiving others. Your argument would make Peter into God as well: ""Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Surely only God has the power to bind and loose in heaven? CD! Yes we will all be one...and we will all be members of the "body of Christ".....He is the head of that body, but the rest of us(spiritually) will be menbers of the body of Christ OR IF you prefer we will all be of the "bride" that has adorned herself in white robes and readied herself for the bridegroom (who is Jesus) Either way you look at it...yes, those who have that faith in Jesus Christ while on the earth WILL be part of him in some form or another....also Jesus told his Apostles that he was going to go and prepare "a place" for them for there were many mansions in His Father's kingdom...but still it is just a singular "place" for them and he did NOT say a "place" for each one singularly etc. That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 10, 2013 21:36:07 GMT -5
CD! Yes we will all be one...and we will all be members of the "body of Christ".....He is the head of that body, but the rest of us(spiritually) will be menbers of the body of Christ OR IF you prefer we will all be of the "bride" that has adorned herself in white robes and readied herself for the bridegroom (who is Jesus) Either way you look at it...yes, those who have that faith in Jesus Christ while on the earth WILL be part of him in some form or another....also Jesus told his Apostles that he was going to go and prepare "a place" for them for there were many mansions in His Father's kingdom...but still it is just a singular "place" for them and he did NOT say a "place" for each one singularly etc. That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. If Jesus considered himself "no different then any other person" why did he allow Nathaniel or Thomas or any of those who fell before and worshipped him? There were several incidences of such a thing happening and Jesus never told them that he was just a man and get up off the ground before you get you clothing dirty....I'm one just like you.... Now we have to be careful for there was an angel that someone fell before to worship them or do obeyience and the angel told the man to get up for he was like he was, the same as...... I don't think that worshipping Jesus makes him "no different then any other person".....it would be sacrilege, IMO!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2013 23:44:02 GMT -5
People fell before him because they thought he was the political messiah, the new king who would lead the nation to its former greatness. One has to be aware of the context of what people thought they saw and what they were hoping for from the old prophecies which led them to believe a Messiah King was coming, not God himself. If this was God himself, we wouldn't discussing this, it would be abundantly clear right from the mouth of Jesus himself.
The problem is, you are examining what others were doing and saying, but not examining Christ. It's like when Thomas said "My God", and then claim that Jesus was God because Thomas said so even though Jesus didn't say so. Examine Jesus directly for the answers:
Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. That doesn't sound like a worshiped God to me.
Jesus wept. Does God weep?
Jesus cried out "My God my God, why have you forsaken me?" Would God say that?
Satan tried to tempt Jesus for 40 days. Are you saying that Satan didn't know that God cannot be tempted?
Jesus prayed " if you are willing, take this cup from me;". Would God pray to God asking him to be willing to remove God's will from God?
The truth is, the Jesus is God theory was developed much later, long after Jesus was dead and they didn't use Jesus as the primary witness, they used the Pharisees and doubting disciples to lead them to that conclusion.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2013 23:50:01 GMT -5
Calling Jesus "Lord" doesn't get one into heaven.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2013 23:53:33 GMT -5
Why would Jesus=God need to call on his father for angels?
Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
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Post by fixit on Oct 10, 2013 23:57:55 GMT -5
Why would Jesus=God receive commands from anyone?
John 14:31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 0:53:31 GMT -5
People fell before him because they thought he was the political messiah, the new king who would lead the nation to its former greatness. One has to be aware of the context of what people thought they saw and what they were hoping for from the old prophecies which led them to believe a Messiah King was coming, not God himself. If this was God himself, we wouldn't discussing this, it would be abundantly clear right from the mouth of Jesus himself. The problem is, you are examining what others were doing and saying, but not examining Christ. It's like when Thomas said "My God", and then claim that Jesus was God because Thomas said so even though Jesus didn't say so. Examine Jesus directly for the answers: Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. That doesn't sound like a worshiped God to me. Jesus wept. Does God weep? Jesus cried out "My God my God, why have you forsaken me?" Would God say that? Satan tried to tempt Jesus for 40 days. Are you saying that Satan didn't know that God cannot be tempted? Jesus prayed " if you are willing, take this cup from me;". Would God pray to God asking him to be willing to remove God's will from God? The truth is, the Jesus is God theory was developed much later, long after Jesus was dead and they didn't use Jesus as the primary witness, they used the Pharisees and doubting disciples to lead them to that conclusion. Was Jesus speaking in Theory, here CD? Where He claimed plainly and clearly as the Almighty God. This was taken place around 95 A.D. Jesus said in Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev. 11:16-17 16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and Worshiped God, saying:
“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was,because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. Rev. 21:6,7 He that sat on the throne said unto me , "It is done, I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end." I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be MY Son. Jesus died in AD 33, not in AD 95. Had he wanted to clarify that he was God, he would have said so then, but he didn't. God wouldn't wait for 62 years to appear in an apparition to explain that he was once a mangod.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 11, 2013 5:41:00 GMT -5
CD You said- Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people Its good to study words its quite another to examine who what and why they are said. I think that Jesus went against the very logic of the religious folks. That ticked them off. They rejected Him as God. If he was so logical and rational as you imply surely Niceodemus would have fallen at his feet when they first met, Blind Bartemeous would not have cried out to have mercy on him. Salvation and Gods mercy are not logical or rational ken
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 6:41:41 GMT -5
CD You said- Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people Its good to study words its quite another to examine who what and why they are said. I think that Jesus went against the very logic of the religious folks. That ticked them off. They rejected Him as God. If he was so logical and rational as you imply surely Niceodemus would have fallen at his feet when they first met, Blind Bartemeous would not have cried out to have mercy on him. Salvation and Gods mercy are not logical or rational ken I have always viewed Jesus as perfectly logical and rational along with salvation and God mercy. It all makes perfect sense. You can see it in the perfect order and logic of the creation right through to the teachings of Christ. You are the first person I have known who has suggested that Jesus and God are illogical and/or irrational. This is far more dangerous than believing Jesus is or is not God. Once you take the step into believing God is illogical and irrational, the danger is that you will be capable of believing of anything you are told if you so choose no matter how crazy it is. There is little more dangerous than that.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 11, 2013 9:18:53 GMT -5
CD! Yes we will all be one...and we will all be members of the "body of Christ".....He is the head of that body, but the rest of us(spiritually) will be menbers of the body of Christ OR IF you prefer we will all be of the "bride" that has adorned herself in white robes and readied herself for the bridegroom (who is Jesus) Either way you look at it...yes, those who have that faith in Jesus Christ while on the earth WILL be part of him in some form or another....also Jesus told his Apostles that he was going to go and prepare "a place" for them for there were many mansions in His Father's kingdom...but still it is just a singular "place" for them and he did NOT say a "place" for each one singularly etc. That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. I had intended to remind you, CD, that even BEFORE Jesus was born, the angel of God told Mary that that "thing that was to be born of her was "holy".......now "holy" is perhaps humans' thought of word to redefine "divine" for both speak to that which is of heaven not that which is of the earth. Now this verse is in the first chapter of Luke's gospel...I don't remember which verse but about halfway through the chapter, perhaps......also it is written in one of the epistles that Jesus as God's Son was "made lower then the angels"....also the verse I mentioned to honestabe. in that to Timothy I believe it is, Paul wrote about Jesus Christ as "God made manifest in the flesh"......so if that isn't actually inferring Jesus is God in the flesh, then we're all wrong to count on Jesus' death on the cross to be sufficient to pay our debt of sins.......then all hope is vain......Paul wrote that if we do not believe in Jesus Christ being the sufficient sacrifice for our sins, then we all are headed to nothing more then dust and ashes....we have NO souls that are saved or being reclaimed by the "creator".....even the Creator reclaims the "souls" that are the living breath within the animals, birds, etc....all those bodies of different species that require breathing to maintain life.....Gen. 2 declares to us that when the breath of life enters into these bodies at birth that they become "living souls"...no difference in that class whether human, animal, bird or fish....etc. Also to consider Jesus "no different then any other person" is cheating one's self of many things and that would cheat us of the great joy that Jesus will bring to us on eternity's day.....and I can tell you that it is an inexplicable joy...and Dan Piper who wrote "90 Minutes in Heaven" said himself...that it is an "inexplicable" joy....a joy that no mankind on earth can know....... This inability to put the real meaning to many of the scriptures of both the OT and the NT in regards to the Divinity of our Lord and Saviour is perhaps the most crippling thing I know of within the 2x2's....the preaching of years of we have to bend over backwards in things we do to warrant salvation does this to us....there is NOTHING man can do that would hold God in debt to us....for our best actions are nothing more then filthy rags when compared to the righteousness that is our's when we have faith in Jesus Christ and assigning to him the Deity that is his...as he IS the heir apparent. Again...think of "God" as being a "last identifying" name for the king, queen and their children, the firstborn usually being their heir apparent...they all have a "royal" family name such as the "Windsor" family name has been noted to have nothing but "royals" born to that name....... Also NO man can redeem his brother.....so if you think of Jesus as being "no different" then any other person, then you are cheating yourself of redemption all the way around for the bible is specific in that "NO man can redeem his brother"....so who in the name of all that lives and breathes can redeem us? It has to be the great "creator" himself...for did he not make us as we're made? Only he can really "understand" why we are as we are and needful of being saved from a lost eternity....and he was willing for that before the world ever became....that was why God the Father gave all unto His Son before the world ever became and God the Father will not claim it His UNTIL the Son has become the overcomer of all enemies and then the Son in turn gives them to the Father and he, himself, is always subject unto the Father....... Wasn't it Paul that told the children of Israel that they themselves judged themselves "not worthy" to hear the saving gospel of Christ? And so it was to be given to the Gentiles simply because the children of Israel judged themselves not worthy to hear the gospel of Christ....is this not what we do when we see Jesus as "no different" then any other person? Jesus didn't believe that about himself....for didn't he say that he had power to lay down his life and he had power to raise it up again? And didn't he also say that he had power to forgive sins and that the children of Israel were raised up knowing that ONLY God could forgive sins? That's the reason for all the death of those firstborn animals that were whole and complete? This is my greatest fear about any of us that are still tied to earth's boundaries by our belief that is from the 2x2 raising/teachings and that is we ourselves consider ourselves unworthy to claim the righteousness that the Son of God has and that being that because he took our unrighteousness with him to the cross and he bore the shame, though he did not despise that shame....he did it willingly and in love...he WAS and IS different then any other person even in his own eyes....he knew from whence he came......even at 12 yrs. old he knew that he needed to be about his Father's business and it certainly wasn't Joseph's business he was talking about for that would have found him doing c arpentry in the temple where his mother found him....but NO, he was "teaching" the scriptures even to any that came into that temple, even the priests were willing at that time to see and hear all this young lad knew.....they were astounded at his "understanding" and why shouldn't he have that understanding of the scriptures since he inspired it to be written as well he also was fulfilling the scriptures about the Son of God.......HE WAS very different then any person he was 100 per cent God and 100 per cent human....it is hard to believe and understand and I know my experience was, it wasn't so much my understanding came from Nathan or anybody else's posting on the subject...but from some hard praying and some very uneasy patience to get God's answer on the whole matter....these things will not be revealed to anyone but the babe's of this world...those who are educated beyond belief are the losers as far as the mysteries of heaven...though admittedly there are some very educated people who do understand these mysteries of God....there are some who can speak of these mysteries like they understand them, but don't really for it is something they have heard over and over again, just like the 2x2's hear over and over again that redemption is only going to come to those who work the hardest and even then one never knows they're saved....that is NOT having faith in Jesus Christ, CD! That is the life of not having faith at all....and that is why one cannot feel sure of their redemption of sins...and an eternal life in heaven with the Master......we're shortchanging ourselves when we put Jesus in the class that he is NO different then any other person!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 9:32:18 GMT -5
That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. I had intended to remind you, CD, that even BEFORE Jesus was born, the angel of God told Mary that that "thing that was to be born of her was "holy".......now "holy" is perhaps humans' thought of word to redefine "divine" for both speak to that which is of heaven not that which is of the earth. Now this verse is in the first chapter of Luke's gospel...I don't remember which verse but about halfway through the chapter, perhaps......also it is written in one of the epistles that Jesus as God's Son was "made lower then the angels"....also the verse I mentioned to honestabe. in that to Timothy I believe it is, Paul wrote about Jesus Christ as "God made manifest in the flesh"......so if that isn't actually inferring Jesus is God in the flesh, then we're all wrong to count on Jesus' death on the cross to be sufficient to pay our debt of sins.......then all hope is vain......Paul wrote that if we do not believe in Jesus Christ being the sufficient sacrifice for our sins, then we all are headed to nothing more then dust and ashes....we have NO souls that are saved or being reclaimed by the "creator".....even the Creator reclaims the "souls" that are the living breath within the animals, birds, etc....all those bodies of different species that require breathing to maintain life.....Gen. 2 declares to us that when the breath of life enters into these bodies at birth that they become "living souls"...no difference in that class whether human, animal, bird or fish....etc. Also to consider Jesus "no different then any other person" is cheating one's self of many things and that would cheat us of the great joy that Jesus will bring to us on eternity's day.....and I can tell you that it is an inexplicable joy...and Dan Piper who wrote "90 Minutes in Heaven" said himself...that it is an "inexplicable" joy....a joy that no mankind on earth can know....... This inability to put the real meaning to many of the scriptures of both the OT and the NT in regards to the Divinity of our Lord and Saviour is perhaps the most crippling thing I know of within the 2x2's....the preaching of years of we have to bend over backwards in things we do to warrant salvation does this to us....there is NOTHING man can do that would hold God in debt to us....for our best actions are nothing more then filthy rags when compared to the righteousness that is our's when we have faith in Jesus Christ and assigning to him the Deity that is his...as he IS the heir apparent. Again...think of "God" as being a "last identifying" name for the king, queen and their children, the firstborn usually being their heir apparent...they all have a "royal" family name such as the "Windsor" family name has been noted to have nothing but "royals" born to that name....... Also NO man can redeem his brother..... so if you think of Jesus as being "no different" then any other person, then you are cheating yourself of redemption all the way around for the bible is specific in that "NO man can redeem his brother"....so who in the name of all that lives and breathes can redeem us? It has to be the great "creator" himself...for did he not make us as we're made? Only he can really "understand" why we are as we are and needful of being saved from a lost eternity....and he was willing for that before the world ever became....that was why God the Father gave all unto His Son before the world ever became and God the Father will not claim it His UNTIL the Son has become the overcomer of all enemies and then the Son in turn gives them to the Father and he, himself, is always subject unto the Father....... I'm not promoting any view of Jesus one way or the other STR. I am just presenting lots of biblical evidence that is in direct contradiction to your view of the ideas which were developed on ideas outside of the direct record of Jesus himself. As far as one man being unable to redeem his brother, I am interested in where you ever got that idea. One man redeeming another is an ancient concept and practice which even exists today. In fact, in the ancient Jewish religion, animals and birds were used as part of the process to redeem man from sin.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 11, 2013 9:40:05 GMT -5
Why would Jesus=God need to call on his father for angels? Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? The chief priest and his faithful band had Jesus put to death for calling God the Father "his Father" for they said that was Jesus making himself equal to the Father....they had a hangup about Jesus being the Son of God....so they put him to death and yes, he was the "Messiah" or the "rabbi" or the "master".....and yes, it is the same as when the devil tempted Jesus did not Jesus stop the temptations with scriptures that spoke against the scriptures that the devil used to tempt Jesus....didn't the devil speak about Jesus jumping or falling from the pinnacle on the temple and that God the Father would have His angels to bear Jesus up to keep him from being injured.....so why would Jesus call to the Father in heaven, HIS FATHER btw, to send a legion of angels to fight for Jesus should Jesus want to fight those who sought to kill him....but NO Jesus knew what was to happen so he didn't fight that, but again he was made to suffer because he called the God in heaven "his Father" and the Jews interpreted that to mean that Jesus was making himself equal to God.....no they didn't understand the Triune God either for that take "faith" and "faith" is a gift from heaven.......he was called "that thing that is holy" when he was a fetus in Mary's womb.....he WAS hold, he WAS divine, he Was the very Son of God the Father and he was and he still is the "heir apparent" to God the Father....the Father said that he was well pleased with this son.....
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 11, 2013 10:17:16 GMT -5
Yes indeed . Very different.He died for all those who had their own idea of God
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Post by christiansburg on Oct 11, 2013 10:25:29 GMT -5
The subject of workers and taxes go back to the late 1940's and early 1950's. Investigations of some failed to show any tax evasions. My firsthand discussions of that subject was in the 1960's with workers who had been the subject of this investigation. The charge was dismissed. However, the workers I knew started keeping a record of all monies spent by them and what for. They were never investigated again. As always regarding the IRS they will listen to anonymous complaints. It was later found out that that investigation was precipitated by some who had resentments against the 2 x 2 ministry. I would like to know who is communicating with Sen. Grassley. Do you have any idea?
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 11:20:08 GMT -5
CD! Yes we will all be one...and we will all be members of the "body of Christ".....He is the head of that body, but the rest of us(spiritually) will be menbers of the body of Christ OR IF you prefer we will all be of the "bride" that has adorned herself in white robes and readied herself for the bridegroom (who is Jesus) Either way you look at it...yes, those who have that faith in Jesus Christ while on the earth WILL be part of him in some form or another....also Jesus told his Apostles that he was going to go and prepare "a place" for them for there were many mansions in His Father's kingdom...but still it is just a singular "place" for them and he did NOT say a "place" for each one singularly etc. That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. But it's a common requirement to make all the various beliefs people have to justify when they try to make sense of the bible. I have never understood why Jesus is required for forgiveness of sins or cleansing. Can't God do that all by himself? I think Jesus was saying that we are all sons and daughters of God and that we are all one with God, that it's part of our heritage. That's what I believe he was saying. Do I believe it, well that's another story.
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 11:21:50 GMT -5
That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. If Jesus considered himself "no different then any other person" why did he allow Nathaniel or Thomas or any of those who fell before and worshipped him? There were several incidences of such a thing happening and Jesus never told them that he was just a man and get up off the ground before you get you clothing dirty....I'm one just like you.... Now we have to be careful for there was an angel that someone fell before to worship them or do obeyience and the angel told the man to get up for he was like he was, the same as...... I don't think that worshipping Jesus makes him "no different then any other person".....it would be sacrilege, IMO! Or maybe his popularity was starting to go to his head like any other person who is thought to be 'more special'. That is another possibility. If Jesus was God then why did he tell his apostles that everything he could do, they could do too? And, he added, much more? Does this mean he felt that some one else might be able to attain an even higher understanding of who humanity was?
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 11:24:49 GMT -5
That's just another work-around STR. Using "The Father and I are one" to prove that Jesus is God but in the same breath, when mankind becomes one with God, it means something else. I don't buy that sort of bouncing around. Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people. That verse actually provides evidence that Jesus considered himself no different than any other person, not that he was God. I had intended to remind you, CD, that even BEFORE Jesus was born, the angel of God told Mary that that "thing that was to be born of her was "holy".......now "holy" is perhaps humans' thought of word to redefine "divine" for both speak to that which is of heaven not that which is of the earth. Now this verse is in the first chapter of Luke's gospel...I don't remember which verse but about halfway through the chapter, perhaps......also it is written in one of the epistles that Jesus as God's Son was "made lower then the angels"....also the verse I mentioned to honestabe. in that to Timothy I believe it is, Paul wrote about Jesus Christ as "God made manifest in the flesh"......so if that isn't actually inferring Jesus is God in the flesh, then we're all wrong to count on Jesus' death on the cross to be sufficient to pay our debt of sins.......then all hope is vain......Paul wrote that if we do not believe in Jesus Christ being the sufficient sacrifice for our sins, then we all are headed to nothing more then dust and ashes....we have NO souls that are saved or being reclaimed by the "creator".....even the Creator reclaims the "souls" that are the living breath within the animals, birds, etc....all those bodies of different species that require breathing to maintain life.....Gen. 2 declares to us that when the breath of life enters into these bodies at birth that they become "living souls"...no difference in that class whether human, animal, bird or fish....etc. Also to consider Jesus "no different then any other person" is cheating one's self of many things and that would cheat us of the great joy that Jesus will bring to us on eternity's day.....and I can tell you that it is an inexplicable joy...and Dan Piper who wrote "90 Minutes in Heaven" said himself...that it is an "inexplicable" joy....a joy that no mankind on earth can know....... This inability to put the real meaning to many of the scriptures of both the OT and the NT in regards to the Divinity of our Lord and Saviour is perhaps the most crippling thing I know of within the 2x2's....the preaching of years of we have to bend over backwards in things we do to warrant salvation does this to us....there is NOTHING man can do that would hold God in debt to us....for our best actions are nothing more then filthy rags when compared to the righteousness that is our's when we have faith in Jesus Christ and assigning to him the Deity that is his...as he IS the heir apparent. Again...think of "God" as being a "last identifying" name for the king, queen and their children, the firstborn usually being their heir apparent...they all have a "royal" family name such as the "Windsor" family name has been noted to have nothing but "royals" born to that name....... Also NO man can redeem his brother.....so if you think of Jesus as being "no different" then any other person, then you are cheating yourself of redemption all the way around for the bible is specific in that "NO man can redeem his brother"....so who in the name of all that lives and breathes can redeem us? It has to be the great "creator" himself...for did he not make us as we're made? Only he can really "understand" why we are as we are and needful of being saved from a lost eternity....and he was willing for that before the world ever became....that was why God the Father gave all unto His Son before the world ever became and God the Father will not claim it His UNTIL the Son has become the overcomer of all enemies and then the Son in turn gives them to the Father and he, himself, is always subject unto the Father....... Wasn't it Paul that told the children of Israel that they themselves judged themselves "not worthy" to hear the saving gospel of Christ? And so it was to be given to the Gentiles simply because the children of Israel judged themselves not worthy to hear the gospel of Christ....is this not what we do when we see Jesus as "no different" then any other person? Jesus didn't believe that about himself....for didn't he say that he had power to lay down his life and he had power to raise it up again? And didn't he also say that he had power to forgive sins and that the children of Israel were raised up knowing that ONLY God could forgive sins? That's the reason for all the death of those firstborn animals that were whole and complete? This is my greatest fear about any of us that are still tied to earth's boundaries by our belief that is from the 2x2 raising/teachings and that is we ourselves consider ourselves unworthy to claim the righteousness that the Son of God has and that being that because he took our unrighteousness with him to the cross and he bore the shame, though he did not despise that shame....he did it willingly and in love...he WAS and IS different then any other person even in his own eyes....he knew from whence he came......even at 12 yrs. old he knew that he needed to be about his Father's business and it certainly wasn't Joseph's business he was talking about for that would have found him doing c arpentry in the temple where his mother found him....but NO, he was "teaching" the scriptures even to any that came into that temple, even the priests were willing at that time to see and hear all this young lad knew.....they were astounded at his "understanding" and why shouldn't he have that understanding of the scriptures since he inspired it to be written as well he also was fulfilling the scriptures about the Son of God.......HE WAS very different then any person he was 100 per cent God and 100 per cent human....it is hard to believe and understand and I know my experience was, it wasn't so much my understanding came from Nathan or anybody else's posting on the subject...but from some hard praying and some very uneasy patience to get God's answer on the whole matter....these things will not be revealed to anyone but the babe's of this world...those who are educated beyond belief are the losers as far as the mysteries of heaven...though admittedly there are some very educated people who do understand these mysteries of God....there are some who can speak of these mysteries like they understand them, but don't really for it is something they have heard over and over again, just like the 2x2's hear over and over again that redemption is only going to come to those who work the hardest and even then one never knows they're saved....that is NOT having faith in Jesus Christ, CD! That is the life of not having faith at all....and that is why one cannot feel sure of their redemption of sins...and an eternal life in heaven with the Master......we're shortchanging ourselves when we put Jesus in the class that he is NO different then any other person! Yes an angel came in a dream. There were other so called god men that had a virgin for a mother that had an angel come to them in a dream too. What do you make of those claims. There are quite a few claims like this and before Jesus was born to Mary.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 11, 2013 15:53:30 GMT -5
CD You said- Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people Its good to study words its quite another to examine who what and why they are said. I think that Jesus went against the very logic of the religious folks. That ticked them off. They rejected Him as God. If he was so logical and rational as you imply surely Niceodemus would have fallen at his feet when they first met, Blind Bartemeous would not have cried out to have mercy on him. Salvation and Gods mercy are not logical or rational ken I have always viewed Jesus as perfectly logical and rational along with salvation and God mercy. It all makes perfect sense. You can see it in the perfect order and logic of the creation right through to the teachings of Christ. You are the first person I have known who has suggested that Jesus and God are illogical and/or irrational. This is far more dangerous than believing Jesus is or is not God. Once you take the step into believing God is illogical and irrational, the danger is that you will be capable of believing of anything you are told if you so choose no matter how crazy it is. There is little more dangerous than that. CD Don't panic Just some examples of what does not appear to be rational/logical From some of Jesus teaching. They are the currency of the kingdom and have no logical or rational explanation in this worlds thoughts. Matter of fact the opposite is true Does becoming weak make you strong? Happy is the humble man Happy is the meek man Happy is he who is persecuted Happy are those who hunger and thirst Just a few and there are so many more. CD I respect you for your very astute observations and honesty but there are times when I have found myself calling in to doubt the very foundational principals of my belief. We were in the F&Ws church for some time and followed the unwritten rules believing that this was indeed the Truth of God. All that time I was under the impression that there was no doubt on the basic belief that Jesus was God and part of the trinity. How could I have been so stupid and missed this error? Let me say that both Shiela and I appreciated our time and learned many things -some good some not so good. It was not until some experiences with workers that I realized this was not the belief.We didn't have the advantage of internet and books to help us in the transition. Jesus is our righteousness God loved us and Jesus was willing to fullfill the plan of salvation ever since the world was spoken into existence. Jesus was the word and was God. JMT ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 11, 2013 16:11:07 GMT -5
CD You said- Jesus, if he was a logical and rational person, would have used the same contextual meaning for being "one with God" for either himself or for other people Its good to study words its quite another to examine who what and why they are said. I think that Jesus went against the very logic of the religious folks. That ticked them off. They rejected Him as God. If he was so logical and rational as you imply surely Niceodemus would have fallen at his feet when they first met, Blind Bartemeous would not have cried out to have mercy on him. Salvation and Gods mercy are not logical or rational ken I have always viewed Jesus as perfectly logical and rational along with salvation and God mercy. It all makes perfect sense. You can see it in the perfect order and logic of the creation right through to the teachings of Christ. You are the first person I have known who has suggested that Jesus and God are illogical and/or irrational. This is far more dangerous than believing Jesus is or is not God. Once you take the step into believing God is illogical and irrational, the danger is that you will be capable of believing of anything you are told if you so choose no matter how crazy it is. There is little more dangerous than that. CD Don't panic Just some examples of what does not appear to be rational/logical From some of Jesus teaching. They are the currency of the kingdom and have no logical or rational explanation in this worlds thoughts. Matter of fact the opposite is true Does becoming weak make you strong? Happy is the humble man Happy is the meek man Happy is he who is persecuted Happy are those who hunger and thirst Just a few and there are so many more. CD I respect you for your very astute observations and honesty but there are times when I have found myself calling in to doubt the very foundational principals of my belief. We were in the F&Ws church for some time and followed the unwritten rules believing that this was indeed the Truth of God. All that time I was under the impression that there was no doubt on the basic belief that Jesus was God and part of the trinity. How could I have been so stupid and missed this error? Let me say that both Shiela and I appreciated our time and learned many things -some good some not so good. It was not until some experiences with workers that I realized this was not the belief.We didn't have the advantage of internet and books to help us in the transition. Jesus is our righteousness God loved us and Jesus was willing to fullfill the plan of salvation ever since the world was spoken into existence. Jesus was the word and was God. JMT ken
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 16:59:36 GMT -5
Yes an angel came in a dream. There were other so called god men that had a virgin for a mother that had an angel come to them in a dream too. What do you make of those claims. There are quite a few claims like this and before Jesus was born to Mary. Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. Mormons Maroni (sp) angel gave them golden tablets and special glasses to read= the book of Mormons... Satan and his demonic army have their own agenda which is to cause confusion and Chaos... between truth and false, Light and Darkness... making believers to become atheists... They are Here to MESS up and to confuse our minds to doubt about the existence of God.
Nathan, how can you explain that these religions that had the dying rising god man were much older than Christianity? It does appear that Christianity has borrowed a few things from older religions.
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 19:41:25 GMT -5
Nathan, how can you explain that these religions that had the dying rising god man were much older than Christianity? It does appear that Christianity has borrowed a few things from older religions. Christ's seed coming into the world, and dying to destroy Satan's work was foretold in the Garden of Eden from the beginning. It had to take 4000 yrs for the prophecy to be fulfilled, where God the Father sent His Son to accomplish the task... Others gods, and all religions, Buddha, Mohammed, came many hundreds, and thousands of years later.Genesis 3:13-15 13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,“Cursed are you above all livestock and all wild animals! You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers;he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” So, the God Yahweh of Israel/Jesus is the oldest, first and foremost of all men religions.Well if you believe in an actual garden of Eden and the conversation above actually took place, then you live in a different world from me. My world started much longer ago and slowly evolved to what we see today. It also doesn't have a talking snake called Satan and man never had original sin. You do know there were several such creation stories that were quite similar to the one you're talking about? The Hebrews just decided on that one and changed it around a little to put their stamp on it. Yahweh was the Hebrew God of War before he became their primary focus of worship. If it doesn't matter to you that Christianity is a copycat religion with a lot of pagan roots, then I guess you need to stick to believing the earth is 6000 years old and it all started in the Garden of Eden between a talking snake and a woman. However, my world history is quite a different one. I see the similarities that the Jesus story shares with many older religions.
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Post by snow on Oct 11, 2013 22:53:03 GMT -5
Well if you believe in an actual garden of Eden and the conversation above actually took place, then you live in a different world from me. My world started much longer ago and slowly evolved to what we see today. It also doesn't have a talking snake called Satan and man never had original sin. You do know there were several such creation stories that were quite similar to the one you're talking about? The Hebrews just decided on that one and changed it around a little to put their stamp on it. Yahweh was the Hebrew God of War before he became their primary focus of worship. If it doesn't matter to you that Christianity is a copycat religion with a lot of pagan roots, then I guess you need to stick to believing the earth is 6000 years old and it all started in the Garden of Eden between a talking snake and a woman. However, my world history is quite a different one. I see the similarities that the Jesus story shares with many older religions. Well, Jesus our Savior talked about the time in the Garden of Eden in Matthew 19:19:4-6. So, Garden of Eden (Iraq) had to be real place. We know the Serpent/Reptilians have been living in the hallow earth for millions of yrs that was why, he appeared in the Garden of Eden. The hallow Earth has been the Serpent/Reptilian home for million of years AND still is. Adam and Eve race/homo sapiens have been created only 6000 yrs. There were other human races before Adam and Eve living on the earth prior to Adam and Eve for hundreds, thousands, millions of yrs ago.Revelation 12:7-9 There WAS a War/Rebellion in heaven, Michael and his angels fought against the Dragon/Serpent with his/Satan angels prevail NOT; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great Dragon was cast out, that OLD Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the EARTH, and his angels were cast out with him And his tail drew the THIRD part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the EARTH. The book of Jude 1: 6 And the angels who kept NOT their position of authority, but LEFT their own habitation, God has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.Well Nathan, I just don't think I can believe what you believe. You lose me every time you talk about a hollow earth and reptilians etc. What does this information give you Nathan? Does it provide comfort in some way?
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Post by fixit on Oct 11, 2013 23:00:19 GMT -5
Its pretty hot down there.
Do these reptilians live in Hell?
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Post by faune on Oct 11, 2013 23:39:34 GMT -5
Its pretty hot down there. Do these reptilians live in Hell? Fixit ~ Here's some general information on reptilians from science fiction, but I don't see any reference to them in the Bible. Perhaps I missed something from not reading between the lines? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reptilian_humanoids
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Post by blandie on Oct 12, 2013 2:41:07 GMT -5
I think you maybe able to say that they do not believe Jesus was/is God ken 1. "They don't believe Jesus is God" For most F&W, guilty as charged. 2. "They don't believe in the cleansing power of Jesus" A ridiculous claim. If that was true a lot of hymns would need to be removed from the hymn book. I think I see 2 as not being so ridiculous if you take it more as he's trying to get across that the idea 'They don't believe that the cleansing power of Jesus is enough' which is certainly more according to what I understood and heard. The workers we've talked to would say that those who believe that the cleansing power of Jesus or of the blood or of God's grace are wrong in making it too simplistic and that you have to have more that that - like fellowship with the workers and friends and continue having willingness for the way and submission to those who have rule over you - them - and meetings in the home and hearing the truth in gospel meetings and a whole lot else. Its the same thought as the 'Jesus-plus' idea that Clearday and others have driven home here. I don't think I ever heard or met Brad but I know some people who have some back and forth with him and more recently than Boring and he was evidently then still living in the Portland city that's on the west coast and definitely not the one that's on the east coast. I wonder why someone would have said differently or if it is just a rumor or misunderstood or something else. But if he's married and now happily living in the east then good for him and congratulations and I hope it helps in healing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 9:40:16 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Oct 12, 2013 10:19:26 GMT -5
Well Nathan, I just don't think I can believe what you believe. You lose me every time you talk about a hollow earth and reptilians etc. What does this information give you Nathan? Does it provide comfort in some way? Yes, the Bible is true. Satan/Serpent and his seeds Reptilians exist, and live underground of our earth. Satan and God are REAL not a figment of our imagination. Historical Jesus is REAL. HELL and Heavens are REAL. Jesus own words are TRUE.
Jesus said in John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
And, you know all this is true, how? Nathan the earth is not hollow.
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