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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2013 21:57:04 GMT -5
See what hellish attitudes the church has fostered!!! snow references her own sources - not the Church - nor me. I know. It is MY conclusion that since the church "developed" the concept of hell, which has become an important teaching of the church -- the church has fostered a population that has a preoccupation with avoiding hell.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2013 22:00:21 GMT -5
Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. Yes, I'm sure that was one of the reasons people believe in a "hell."
Just as some people will also say, "What goes around, comes around," -meaning how a person that mistreats someone else it will come back to them & they will be treated the same.
Of course it isn't true. Some people can treat someone very cruelly & never have to endure such themselves.
It just seems to be some kind of comfort to people to say this.
A lot of people will even admit that they believe in hell -- just in case it does exist and they don't want to go there.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 16, 2013 22:03:21 GMT -5
snow references her own sources - not the Church - nor me. I know. It is MY conclusion that since the church "developed" the concept of hell, which has become an important teaching of the church -- the church has fostered a population that has a preoccupation with avoiding hell. I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2013 22:17:35 GMT -5
I know. It is MY conclusion that since the church "developed" the concept of hell, which has become an important teaching of the church -- the church has fostered a population that has a preoccupation with avoiding hell. I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Oh, if we could only have been born in a time before you could go to hell!
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 22:47:21 GMT -5
Hmm, no way to clean up the way you responded via quotes. So, I'll respond by saying the first response was sarcastic in answer to your 'why'. I don't really know if there is a God. So far I haven't seen proof of one. At least not one like the monotheistic religions talk about. The God of the OT is not a nice God and sounds like an adult having a 3 year old temper tantrum. So no, I don't believe in that God at all. For me, if there is a God, it wouldn't have any human characteristics. All the characteristics of the Gods that people have defined in their sacred books just sound like all powerful people. Their followers all say they they are loving and merciful, but then they attribute some pretty crazy and horrific actions to them. If heaven is so wonderful, I would think that everyone would be okay with death. Religion is supposed to be the balm on the fear of death, but truly, I don't see too many people who believe in God and heaven to be very comfortable with death. I am more comfortable with death then my sisters. They think it's terrible. I think it's natural and nothing to be feared. Maybe that's what separates the religious from the atheists. A greater tolerance for the unknown and death in general. And fools rush in where angels fear to tread... What do you think of my saying the 2x2's incorrectly entertain an ego-less Jesus, or an ego-suppressed Jesus? Isn't that their conception of him as they liken him to a lamb? I have not idea what is correct concerning Jesus. I am not even sure he existed as one person. However, if he was a man that became ego-less, I would think it would be hard for him to survive. The ego is a very important aspect of being human. Without a sense of 'I' we wouldn't take care of our-self, eat etc. Those who have a stroke and lose the function of the left brain are a good example of this.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 22:49:08 GMT -5
See what hellish attitudes the church has fostered!!! snow references her own sources - not the Church - nor me. Yes, I'm talking about people I have interviewed or spoke to personally when discussing the subject. It was not you St. Anne that said this.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 22:51:37 GMT -5
I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Oh, if we could only have been born in a time before you could go to hell! Yes, I wonder what that was like? To talk to religious people and they don't say you're going to hell? What would my sisters threaten me with?
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 16, 2013 22:58:07 GMT -5
When was that and how did the concept "fully develop"? What was it like before it was fully developed?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 16, 2013 23:05:20 GMT -5
I know. It is MY conclusion that since the church "developed" the concept of hell, which has become an important teaching of the church -- the church has fostered a population that has a preoccupation with avoiding hell. I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Oh my, that's too bad. There is so much joy in living & learning that you are missing with such a preoccupation with the idea of hell!
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Post by fixit on Sept 16, 2013 23:42:22 GMT -5
I know. It is MY conclusion that since the church "developed" the concept of hell, which has become an important teaching of the church -- the church has fostered a population that has a preoccupation with avoiding hell. I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Do you want to avoid Purgatory as well?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2013 0:00:29 GMT -5
When was that and how did the concept "fully develop"? What was it like before it was fully developed? I'd have to go looking for the time when the concept of hell morphed into its present understand. But in the Bible the word "hell" refers to the "grave" -- where Jews went when they died. But it sometimes referred to shoel, which was also the grave. Those rejected for dignified burial were taken to another pit -- outside Jerusalem there was a pit where everyone threw their trash, and it was an eternal flame because the trash they added just provided more fuel for the fire that burned continuously to consume the garbage. The word "hell" itself comes from a north-European Pagan god (hel) who was in charge of some afterlife place that they believed in there. I'll see what I can find about this introduction into Christianity -- it shouldn't be too hard because I read it rather recently.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2013 6:59:52 GMT -5
When was that and how did the concept "fully develop"? What was it like before it was fully developed? I'd have to go looking for the time when the concept of hell morphed into its present understand. But in the Bible the word "hell" refers to the "grave" -- where Jews went when they died. But it sometimes referred to shoel, which was also the grave. Those rejected for dignified burial were taken to another pit -- outside Jerusalem there was a pit where everyone threw their trash, and it was an eternal flame because the trash they added just provided more fuel for the fire that burned continuously to consume the garbage. The word "hell" itself comes from a north-European Pagan god (hel) who was in charge of some afterlife place that they believed in there. I'll see what I can find about this introduction into Christianity -- it shouldn't be too hard because I read it rather recently. That's pretty much my understanding of early Hebrew beliefs from my own studies of it. Dead people were just below them in the earth in Sheol, and they were asleep, not burning in torment somewhere or playing a harp in the clouds. That belief is well understood in the story of Saul getting the medium to connect him with the dead Samuel. The medium was successful in waking up Samuel but, like most people in a deep sleep, he was quite cranky for being disturbed. I think the Hebrews can be credited for the development of the concept of hell, although not a hell where people resided eternally....although the hellfire is eternal. As you mentioned, the burning garbage dumps, Gehenna, were the beginning of the concept. The Torah doesn't mention the idea of an afterlife Gehenna but some rabbis think it was created on the second day. Like most Jewish theology, it is up for debate. One thing interesting about Gehenna is that among most of the rabbinical group, Gehenna is believed to be a temporary stop for the soul. In most cases, it is a maximum of 12 months of torture before moving on to a better place. Judaism preaches "good works" as the sole method to avoid a stop in Gehenna.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 17, 2013 8:05:28 GMT -5
I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Do you want to avoid Purgatory as well? The only way to avoid purgatory is to be a Saint or martyred for the faith. If we go to purgatory at least we're assured of heaven.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 17, 2013 8:07:38 GMT -5
I certainly don't want to go to hell. So it's definitely a preoccupation, and more, for me. Oh my, that's too bad. There is so much joy in living & learning that you are missing with such a preoccupation with the idea of hell!My preoccupation with hell isn't focused on hell but rather the wonderful blessings of avoiding hell.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 17, 2013 8:09:11 GMT -5
snow references her own sources - not the Church - nor me. Yes, I'm talking about people I have interviewed or spoke to personally when discussing the subject. It was not you St. Anne that said this. Right. Thank you. I didn't know where Bob joined the thread so I mentioned that for his comment.
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Post by Lee on Sept 17, 2013 9:20:39 GMT -5
And fools rush in where angels fear to tread... What do you think of my saying the 2x2's incorrectly entertain an ego-less Jesus, or an ego-suppressed Jesus? Isn't that their conception of him as they liken him to a lamb? I have not idea what is correct concerning Jesus. I am not even sure he existed as one person. However, if he was a man that became ego-less, I would think it would be hard for him to survive. The ego is a very important aspect of being human. Without a sense of 'I' we wouldn't take care of our-self, eat etc. Those who have a stroke and lose the function of the left brain are a good example of this. So God became ego-less .... that's much better!
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Post by Lee on Sept 17, 2013 9:24:15 GMT -5
Or would that be more better
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Post by snow on Sept 17, 2013 10:31:14 GMT -5
I have not idea what is correct concerning Jesus. I am not even sure he existed as one person. However, if he was a man that became ego-less, I would think it would be hard for him to survive. The ego is a very important aspect of being human. Without a sense of 'I' we wouldn't take care of our-self, eat etc. Those who have a stroke and lose the function of the left brain are a good example of this. So God became ego-less .... that's much better! Well your definition of God would be a supernatural being that never had an ego to start with so how could a God ever become ego-less? The whole thing makes no sense to me and that's why I quit believing in all this stuff many many years ago.
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Post by snow on Sept 17, 2013 10:36:22 GMT -5
When was that and how did the concept "fully develop"? What was it like before it was fully developed? I'd have to go looking for the time when the concept of hell morphed into its present understand. But in the Bible the word "hell" refers to the "grave" -- where Jews went when they died. But it sometimes referred to shoel, which was also the grave. Those rejected for dignified burial were taken to another pit -- outside Jerusalem there was a pit where everyone threw their trash, and it was an eternal flame because the trash they added just provided more fuel for the fire that burned continuously to consume the garbage. The word "hell" itself comes from a north-European Pagan god (hel) who was in charge of some afterlife place that they believed in there. I'll see what I can find about this introduction into Christianity -- it shouldn't be too hard because I read it rather recently. Bob, I read somewhere lately that it was a slow process that started once the Hebrews decided to only worship one God. Then they had a conundrum to explain the bad things that happened. They didn't want to attribute them to God so they developed the concept of Satan. As that belief slowly percolated then he needed a place where he had 'power'. Slowly the beliefs of their day coalesced into a version of their Sheol and Hel which was a German concept of the afterlife. They spent a lot of time in captivity exposed to the beliefs of many different nations around them, so it makes sense that they absorbed bits and pieces from all over the place to finally compile a history that was unique to them. I'd be interested to hear what you know about the process when you find it. Bob, what do you think of this: baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.ca/2008/07/was-moses-really-hammurabi.html
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2013 17:04:02 GMT -5
I'd have to go looking for the time when the concept of hell morphed into its present understand. But in the Bible the word "hell" refers to the "grave" -- where Jews went when they died. But it sometimes referred to shoel, which was also the grave. Those rejected for dignified burial were taken to another pit -- outside Jerusalem there was a pit where everyone threw their trash, and it was an eternal flame because the trash they added just provided more fuel for the fire that burned continuously to consume the garbage. The word "hell" itself comes from a north-European Pagan god (hel) who was in charge of some afterlife place that they believed in there. I'll see what I can find about this introduction into Christianity -- it shouldn't be too hard because I read it rather recently. Bob, I read somewhere lately that it was a slow process that started once the Hebrews decided to only worship one God. Then they had a conundrum to explain the bad things that happened. They didn't want to attribute them to God so they developed the concept of Satan. As that belief slowly percolated then he needed a place where he had 'power'. Slowly the beliefs of their day coalesced into a version of their Sheol and Hel which was a German concept of the afterlife. They spent a lot of time in captivity exposed to the beliefs of many different nations around them, so it makes sense that they absorbed bits and pieces from all over the place to finally compile a history that was unique to them. I'd be interested to hear what you know about the process when you find it. Bob, what do you think of this: baconeatingatheistjew.blogspot.ca/2008/07/was-moses-really-hammurabi.htmlIt was a slow process. But in the beginning the god of Abraham was not the only god and therefore he was not the omnipotent omniscient being that a monotheistic god turns out to be. As the god of Abraham became more demanding, the other gods became more evil -- of course their god would punish them for their disobedience too. That particular belief remained prevalent until hardly 200 years ago when scientists discovered such things as germs and viruses. If I remember correctly, it was when they returned from the captivity that they became strictly monotheistic, and they had picked up the notion of an evil being from their captors. Even then, it never became a universal belief among Jews. I don't know where the idea developed that god had created that creature, but I suppose if you're monotheistic you have to blame everything on god. But for Jews Satan was not the great deceiver that he is to Christians. For Jews, they didn't go to hell, so they needed no explanation for the evil influence. Muslims today have a Shetan (sp) who is similar but not the same thing as Satan. I read about him, but I didn't absorb much of it. It seems the Christians, as an effective means of controlling the Pagan converts in Europe, took the concept of hel and married it to the conditions of the eternal fire in the dump in Jerusalem. It makes a very powerful threat, that's for sure. BTW, Muslims all go to Gehenna (what Christians translate as hell). There, some have fire only up to their ankles, bad ones all the way up to their neck, but supposedly they can make it all the way to Genna (heaven). I never paid much attention to that. I'm looking for one of my textbooks - I'm somewhat disorganized, but I remember it has a blue cover.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2013 17:09:04 GMT -5
I'd have to go looking for the time when the concept of hell morphed into its present understand. But in the Bible the word "hell" refers to the "grave" -- where Jews went when they died. But it sometimes referred to shoel, which was also the grave. Those rejected for dignified burial were taken to another pit -- outside Jerusalem there was a pit where everyone threw their trash, and it was an eternal flame because the trash they added just provided more fuel for the fire that burned continuously to consume the garbage. The word "hell" itself comes from a north-European Pagan god (hel) who was in charge of some afterlife place that they believed in there. I'll see what I can find about this introduction into Christianity -- it shouldn't be too hard because I read it rather recently. That's pretty much my understanding of early Hebrew beliefs from my own studies of it. Dead people were just below them in the earth in Sheol, and they were asleep, not burning in torment somewhere or playing a harp in the clouds. That belief is well understood in the story of Saul getting the medium to connect him with the dead Samuel. The medium was successful in waking up Samuel but, like most people in a deep sleep, he was quite cranky for being disturbed. I think the Hebrews can be credited for the development of the concept of hell, although not a hell where people resided eternally....although the hellfire is eternal. As you mentioned, the burning garbage dumps, Gehenna, were the beginning of the concept. The Torah doesn't mention the idea of an afterlife Gehenna but some rabbis think it was created on the second day. Like most Jewish theology, it is up for debate. One thing interesting about Gehenna is that among most of the rabbinical group, Gehenna is believed to be a temporary stop for the soul. In most cases, it is a maximum of 12 months of torture before moving on to a better place. Judaism preaches "good works" as the sole method to avoid a stop in Gehenna. For the Jews, I don't think Gehenna was for everyone -- just bad people. The Muslims have developed that into a place where everyone goes (so I heard in mosque), but they do not emerge to rest peacefully in the ground, they move on to Genna (heaven). Of course, there is the fanatical element that has discovered a way to avoid Gehenna and go directly to Genna, somewhat like the Catholics have found a way to bypass purgatory. Not everyone can accomplish that.
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Post by snow on Sept 17, 2013 17:42:25 GMT -5
It's all fascinating history of how all these beliefs evolved over time to what we see today. Once you see the way things evolved it's hard to believe that any of it is actually true (God I mean).
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Post by fixit on Sept 17, 2013 20:28:37 GMT -5
Do you want to avoid Purgatory as well? The only way to avoid purgatory is to be a Saint or martyred for the faith. If we go to purgatory at least we're assured of heaven. So if I strap on a suicide belt and blow up an abortion clinic I could bypass purgatory and go straight to heaven?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2013 20:45:34 GMT -5
The only way to avoid purgatory is to be a Saint or martyred for the faith. If we go to purgatory at least we're assured of heaven. So if I strap on a suicide belt and blow up an abortion clinic I could bypass purgatory and go straight to heaven? Not any more. It worked something like that in the crusades. Now you have to be perfectly good and perform some verifiable miracle(s).
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Post by StAnne on Sept 17, 2013 20:49:09 GMT -5
The only way to avoid purgatory is to be a Saint or martyred for the faith. If we go to purgatory at least we're assured of heaven. So if I strap on a suicide belt and blow up an abortion clinic I could bypass purgatory and go straight to heaven? After committing murder - and of sound mind purposely taking your own life?
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Post by fixit on Sept 17, 2013 21:14:01 GMT -5
So if I strap on a suicide belt and blow up an abortion clinic I could bypass purgatory and go straight to heaven? After committing murder - and of sound mind purposely taking your own life? So Martyrdom requires that the other guy starts the fight?
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Post by StAnne on Sept 17, 2013 21:24:56 GMT -5
After committing murder - and of sound mind purposely taking your own life? So Martyrdom requires that the other guy starts the fight? I don't know about that particular aspect - but that one is killed for the faith.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 17, 2013 22:07:13 GMT -5
When was that and how did the concept "fully develop"? What was it like before it was fully developed? Found my notes. The modern Christian concept of hell was probably fully formed by 1600 CE. It began to develop around 500 CE as Christianity began expanding into western Europe, and reached its peak of importance with the onset of the witch purges in the 1500s. Consequently the modern English term “hell” – from the Pagan “hel” complete with the eternal fire Dante described in his 1300's epic. The concept of Satan grew along with hell, of course, because a place of torture needs a god-like trustee. By the time of the Reformation Satan had advanced to the ruler of the whole world and the only means of escaping his eternal punishment was through the church. A Jesuit catechism of the time is noted to mention Satan more frequently than Jesus. Satan was such an important figure in Christian theology that King James I called him "God's hangman". You won’t find much documentation indicating that the fear of hell was an invented threat for control, but the political/historical circumstances surrounding the increased threat from the influence of Satan over the earth and mankind goes hand in hand with the development of the tortures of hell. During the Reformation the Protestants, if not intensifying the threat of the devil, took full advantage of it in their teachings. Early Christians (at least the ones in the Roman Empire) believed that the most righteous of people went to some kind of a heavenly place when they died -- not necessarily heaven as we consider it today. The ancients believed that "heaven" was a place where only gods resided. Most people just went to some kind of nondescript afterlife place, and only really wicked people went to some place of torture. Hell was not taken seriously by early Christians, and was not even taken literally for the most part.
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