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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2013 19:19:54 GMT -5
or perhaps that any difference in their essence is divisible by a given modulus? Okay, that's got to be the 'numbers' in ya! Jeez, and I thought the Trinity was hard to understand before!!! Hopefully no one thinks I had any idea what I was talking about
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2013 21:07:16 GMT -5
That's how it's explained now. However, when the creation story was written the plural was referring to all the Gods the Hebrews worshiped. They were not always a monotheist group. They also believed there were other Gods and they would ask their war god Yahweh to defeat those other gods of their enemies. At that time in history there were OTHER gods. Now it's being translated into Jesus being the plural plus the Holy spirit. I would imagine that the Jews don't believe that's what their creation story means. Snow ~ That's not the way I read it in scripture and as shown within my referenced article below with the following excerpt. However, I don't deny that before Abraham came into the picture, it appears that the Jewish people did worship other gods earlier, since that was the main reason that Abraham was told to leave his native land of Ur. However, after this Abraham came into the picture, it appears that the Jewish race was monotheistic. Also, there is the story of Noah and his family who served God and also of Job,which happens to be one of the earlier books in the Bible. Job came on the scene early within the earlier time frame of the book of Genesis, around the time of Jacob and Esau, sons of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Job www.evidencetobelieve.net/triune_god_in_the_scriptures.htm Well one of the things I have read from an archaeologists perspective, they left behind figurines that were of Asherah which was a Goddess the Hebrew people did worship at one time. They also worshiped Baal. At one point Asherah was connected to Yahweh as his consort. We know they worshiped other gods because look what happened when Moses came down the mountain after getting the 10 commandments? There were 3000 people killed because of the Golden Calf. They weren't all that different from their neighbors with the gods they worshiped in the beginning. It took some time to have them agree to worship their God of war Yahweh for everything. It was stated that the Hebrew people didn't like the idea of worshiping their god of war for things such as fertility. www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/03/asherah-gods-wife-in-ancient-israel-part-iv/In Israel and Judah[edit source | editbeta]
Between the 10th century BC and the beginning of their exile in 586 polytheism was normal throughout Israel;[9] it was only after the exile that worship of Yahweh alone became established, and possibly only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) that monotheism became universal among Jews.[10][11] Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshiped as the consort of Yahweh, the national God of Israel.[10] There are references to the worship of numerous Gods throughout Kings, Solomon builds temples to many Gods during his reign and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh. (Josiah's grandfather, Manasseh, had erected this statue. 2 Kings 21:7) Further evidence includes, for example, an 8th-century combination of iconography and inscriptions discovered at Kuntillet Ajrud in the northern Sinai desert[12] where a storage jar shows three anthropomorphic figures and an inscription that refers to "Yahweh … and his Asherah".[13][14] Further evidence includes the many female figurines unearthed in ancient Israel, supporting the view that Asherah functioned as a goddess and consort of Yahweh and was worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.[13]
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2013 21:10:12 GMT -5
Okay, that's got to be the 'numbers' in ya! Jeez, and I thought the Trinity was hard to understand before!!! Hopefully no one thinks I had any idea what I was talking about Well of course we did. We look to you and Gene to explain to us those things that are just - well - just unexplainable!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 14, 2013 21:28:50 GMT -5
Well one of the things I have read from an archaeologists perspective, they left behind figurines that were of Asherah which was a Goddess the Hebrew people did worship at one time. They also worshiped Baal. At one point Asherah was connected to Yahweh as his consort. We know they worshiped other gods because look what happened when Moses came down the mountain after getting the 10 commandments? There were 3000 people killed because of the Golden Calf. They weren't all that different from their neighbors with the gods they worshiped in the beginning. It took some time to have them agree to worship their God of war Yahweh for everything. It was stated that the Hebrew people didn't like the idea of worshiping their god of war for things such as fertility. www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/03/asherah-gods-wife-in-ancient-israel-part-iv/In Israel and Judah[edit source | editbeta]
Between the 10th century BC and the beginning of their exile in 586 polytheism was normal throughout Israel;[9] it was only after the exile that worship of Yahweh alone became established, and possibly only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) that monotheism became universal among Jews.[10][11] Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshiped as the consort of Yahweh, the national God of Israel.[10] There are references to the worship of numerous Gods throughout Kings, Solomon builds temples to many Gods during his reign and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh. (Josiah's grandfather, Manasseh, had erected this statue. 2 Kings 21:7) Further evidence includes, for example, an 8th-century combination of iconography and inscriptions discovered at Kuntillet Ajrud in the northern Sinai desert[12] where a storage jar shows three anthropomorphic figures and an inscription that refers to "Yahweh … and his Asherah".[13][14] Further evidence includes the many female figurines unearthed in ancient Israel, supporting the view that Asherah functioned as a goddess and consort of Yahweh and was worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.[13] My kind of history, snow! Did you major in VERY ancient history or have you just been reading all the right books. There's a course at my college addressing just this area of history. Amazing stuff.
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2013 21:46:06 GMT -5
Well one of the things I have read from an archaeologists perspective, they left behind figurines that were of Asherah which was a Goddess the Hebrew people did worship at one time. They also worshiped Baal. At one point Asherah was connected to Yahweh as his consort. We know they worshiped other gods because look what happened when Moses came down the mountain after getting the 10 commandments? There were 3000 people killed because of the Golden Calf. They weren't all that different from their neighbors with the gods they worshiped in the beginning. It took some time to have them agree to worship their God of war Yahweh for everything. It was stated that the Hebrew people didn't like the idea of worshiping their god of war for things such as fertility. www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/03/asherah-gods-wife-in-ancient-israel-part-iv/In Israel and Judah[edit source | editbeta]
Between the 10th century BC and the beginning of their exile in 586 polytheism was normal throughout Israel;[9] it was only after the exile that worship of Yahweh alone became established, and possibly only as late as the time of the Maccabees (2nd century BC) that monotheism became universal among Jews.[10][11] Some biblical scholars believe that Asherah at one time was worshiped as the consort of Yahweh, the national God of Israel.[10] There are references to the worship of numerous Gods throughout Kings, Solomon builds temples to many Gods during his reign and Josiah is reported as cutting down the statues of Asherah in the temple Solomon built for Yahweh. (Josiah's grandfather, Manasseh, had erected this statue. 2 Kings 21:7) Further evidence includes, for example, an 8th-century combination of iconography and inscriptions discovered at Kuntillet Ajrud in the northern Sinai desert[12] where a storage jar shows three anthropomorphic figures and an inscription that refers to "Yahweh … and his Asherah".[13][14] Further evidence includes the many female figurines unearthed in ancient Israel, supporting the view that Asherah functioned as a goddess and consort of Yahweh and was worshiped as the Queen of Heaven.[13] My kind of history, snow! Did you major in VERY ancient history or have you just been reading all the right books. There's a course at my college addressing just this area of history. Amazing stuff. I just read a lot. Ancient history fascinates me so I have read many books on it. But over the last decade, I have also become interested in the history of religion, how they started and evolved over time to what we see today. That also satisfies my love of early history!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 14, 2013 21:51:12 GMT -5
My kind of history, snow! Did you major in VERY ancient history or have you just been reading all the right books. There's a course at my college addressing just this area of history. Amazing stuff. I just read a lot. Ancient history fascinates me so I have read many books on it. But over the last decade, I have also become interested in the history of religion, how they started and evolved over time to what we see today. That also satisfies my love of early history! You can get a degree in that here in LV.
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2013 22:16:18 GMT -5
I just read a lot. Ancient history fascinates me so I have read many books on it. But over the last decade, I have also become interested in the history of religion, how they started and evolved over time to what we see today. That also satisfies my love of early history! You can get a degree in that here in LV. And I'd be warm! Not looking forward to actually spending a winter in Canada. Haven't done that for quite a few years now.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 14, 2013 22:18:59 GMT -5
You can get a degree in that here in LV. And I'd be warm! Not looking forward to actually spending a winter in Canada. Haven't done that for quite a few years now. You would already have an "in" with a couple of the professors!!!!!!! Temperature has returned to 101F today after our 2-week monsoon rains.
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Post by snow on Sept 15, 2013 10:39:41 GMT -5
And I'd be warm! Not looking forward to actually spending a winter in Canada. Haven't done that for quite a few years now. You would already have an "in" with a couple of the professors!!!!!!! Temperature has returned to 101F today after our 2-week monsoon rains. We've actually had a very warm September. It seems as though our summer has moved to the fall here. 30 C here for the last few days. I remember a time when we did snowmen by Sept 7th. Not anymore. The climate has sure changed here. I would love to go to school there for awhile. Maybe next winter after my husbands cancer treatments are done we will be able to resume our trips south in the winter. We may try to do a week with friends in Ixtapa Mexico between treatments just to get warm for a while.
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Post by snow on Sept 15, 2013 14:19:35 GMT -5
Found this paragraph to be quite revealing. It sounds like it was a political choice to choose the Trinity definition not because it was the truth, but because it was expedient.
Hosius was the one Constantine sent to Alexandria to try to get the two battling groups to come to some kind of a compromise. Athanasius convinced him there could never be a compromise. The two sides were far to divided for that to happen. So Hosius had to make a decision of which side to choose and what would serve Rome the most. One that Constantine would approve because it would bring the most power to the nation and their official religion. Here is why I say this:
"Hosius would surely have found this exposition convincing. (That Jesus had to be a God because a mere human couldn't save mankind from sins, only a God could). His people -- the people of Western Europe -- would not accept a Jesus who was too much like them. They knew they were feeble sinners, struggling to survive in a hostile environment. The Christ they wanted and needed was a High God who could save them by His grace and comfort them through the ministrations of His Church. In fact, Arian theology implicitly reduced the role of the institutional Church. If Jesus' life and character were supposed to serve ordinary Christians as a usable model of behavior, the principal mission of the clergy would be to help people transform themselves, not maintain theological and political unity throughout the Empire. This was another reason Constantine would probably favor the doctrine of Alexander and Athanasius. The Church he needed was one that would help him keep order among the ordinary folk: people who would never become immortal unless God decided for reasons of His own to save them.
Hosius made up his mind. He would write immediately to tell the emperor that compromise was impossible. The Arian heresy could neither be tolerated nor accommodated. It had to be suppressed. At the same time, he would recommend a strategy to end the division in the Christian community as quickly and decisively as possible.
So there is another reason why the Trinity followers had support. It was a better belief to give more power to the Emperor and the Church. It was what was wanted and needed to reach these goals. That doesn't mean it was the truth.
I am finding this all very interesting. Probably because I don't have a 'horse in this race' and don't care one way or the other which was true. It's just fascinating reading to see how this was all decided and it really does seem that the Trinity became the established doctrine because it was expedient to the goals of that day and age. This book doesn't really address what doctrine was correct, but it's more focused on how the trinity doctrine became the victorious one.
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 1:02:52 GMT -5
Not so if Jesus is ontologically congruent to God. No. Ego isn't a bad thing of itself. That's blasphemy. God's personality is pithier than ours. So God sacrificed part of himself. That's much better! Why? You're right, Ego isn't a bad thing of itself. It's a requirement to survive in the physical world. It's a requirement of being. So why do religions teach that Jesus was egoless? 2x2's teach that but does Christianity, in general? It wouldn't seem to be a good thing to achieve if survival is something we should be doing. What determines that survival is something we should be doing? How do you measure survival? Lol, after reading about God in the OT and parts of the NT I would agree that God is far worse a character than most of us mere humans are. So you have a problem with his presentation. But do you have a problem with God?
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 1:12:09 GMT -5
Not so if Jesus is ontologically congruent to God. Does that mean they're like two bugs with matching shape, size and angles? It means that like husband and wife, they're equally vested in their family.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 10:55:26 GMT -5
Hmm, no way to clean up the way you responded via quotes. So, I'll respond by saying the first response was sarcastic in answer to your 'why'.
I don't really know if there is a God. So far I haven't seen proof of one. At least not one like the monotheistic religions talk about. The God of the OT is not a nice God and sounds like an adult having a 3 year old temper tantrum. So no, I don't believe in that God at all.
For me, if there is a God, it wouldn't have any human characteristics. All the characteristics of the Gods that people have defined in their sacred books just sound like all powerful people. Their followers all say they they are loving and merciful, but then they attribute some pretty crazy and horrific actions to them.
If heaven is so wonderful, I would think that everyone would be okay with death. Religion is supposed to be the balm on the fear of death, but truly, I don't see too many people who believe in God and heaven to be very comfortable with death. I am more comfortable with death then my sisters. They think it's terrible. I think it's natural and nothing to be feared. Maybe that's what separates the religious from the atheists. A greater tolerance for the unknown and death in general.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 16, 2013 11:24:31 GMT -5
It's not just a belief in God that gives a Christian peace about death and the afterlife. It's what a person believes about Jesus that has the power to eliminate fear of death and bring joy and peace in this life. Most of the Christians who believe in salvation by grace and not works do not fear death. This is depicted in many of the stories of the exes who have left meetings behind them and are no longer are hoping to get to heaven by their works - who now believe they are saved by grace thru faith. Many describe how accepting their new understanding of salvation put away their fear of death and hell. Salvation by grace thru faith is a gift - and not merited by one's works. (stories are on the TLC Website and the books Reflections and Reflected Truth) I am a Christian and I can honestly say that I do not fear death. I know many other Christians who can say the same. It was understanding salvation by grace through faith that made all the difference. The word "grace" as used above is infused with the Christian meaning given to the word.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 13:16:12 GMT -5
It's not just a belief in God that gives a Christian peace about death and the afterlife. It's what a person believes about Jesus that has the power to eliminate fear of death and bring joy and peace in this life. Most of the Christians who believe in salvation by grace and not works do not fear death. This is depicted in many of the stories of the exes who have left meetings behind them and are no longer are hoping to get to heaven by their works - who now believe they are saved by grace thru faith. Many describe how accepting their new understanding of salvation put away their fear of death and hell. Salvation by grace thru faith is a gift - and not merited by one's works. (stories are on the TLC Website and the books Reflections and Reflected Truth) I am a Christian and I can honestly say that I do not fear death. I know many other Christians who can say the same. It was understanding salvation by grace through faith that made all the difference. The word "grace" as used above is infused with the Christian meaning given to the word. I am sure that would bring more peace then a 'works' only belief. I am glad you don't fear death. I don't either. I don't know if there is anything after death, but there being nothing actually sounds just fine to me. I won't know one way or the other. It is done!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2013 14:14:27 GMT -5
It's not just a belief in God that gives a Christian peace about death and the afterlife. It's what a person believes about Jesus that has the power to eliminate fear of death and bring joy and peace in this life. Most of the Christians who believe in salvation by grace and not works do not fear death. This is depicted in many of the stories of the exes who have left meetings behind them and are no longer are hoping to get to heaven by their works - who now believe they are saved by grace thru faith. Many describe how accepting their new understanding of salvation put away their fear of death and hell. Salvation by grace thru faith is a gift - and not merited by one's works. (stories are on the TLC Website and the books Reflections and Reflected Truth) I am a Christian and I can honestly say that I do not fear death. I know many other Christians who can say the same. It was understanding salvation by grace through faith that made all the difference. The word "grace" as used above is infused with the Christian meaning given to the word. I am sure that would bring more peace then a 'works' only belief. I am glad you don't fear death. I don't either. I don't know if there is anything after death, but there being nothing actually sounds just fine to me. I won't know one way or the other. It is done! I wouldn't say that there is necessarily an advantage of one over the other. A clearly specified list of law-based or works-based rules can be very comforting for some people. They just have to follow the rules and they're in. The grace concept is much more theoretical. While it makes sense, there is still a huge component of faith and hope required. The works based system is just a matter of sticking within the confines of the rules and you're good to go, so to speak. It seems to me a lack of faith, or a least a lack of faith in hell or permanent hell would be the most comforting. As long as you have a keen belief in a nasty and brutal hell as a possibility, death is always going to be difficult on some level. No doubt the once-saved-always-saved people have this as a big part of their motivation for developing such a doctrine.
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 16:34:16 GMT -5
I am sure that would bring more peace then a 'works' only belief. I am glad you don't fear death. I don't either. I don't know if there is anything after death, but there being nothing actually sounds just fine to me. I won't know one way or the other. It is done! I wouldn't say that there is necessarily an advantage of one over the other. A clearly specified list of law-based or works-based rules can be very comforting for some people. They just have to follow the rules and they're in. The grace concept is much more theoretical. While it makes sense, there is still a huge component of faith and hope required. The works based system is just a matter of sticking within the confines of the rules and you're good to go, so to speak. It seems to me a lack of faith, or a least a lack of faith in hell or permanent hell would be the most comforting. As long as you have a keen belief in a nasty and brutal hell as a possibility, death is always going to be difficult on some level. No doubt the once-saved-always-saved people have this as a big part of their motivation for developing such a doctrine. Yes, I think the most freeing thing I ever had happen to me was the day I realized there could not be a hell. Before that I was sure I was going. But knowing what I know now, hell makes absolutely no sense for a variety of reasons. I realized it was just a man made attempt at finding justice for those who had done them wrong and somehow didn't get judgement or punishment while still alive. Another reason was that churches found it to be a very good way of getting people to do what they wanted. To listen to their doctrines and obey them. Also for monetary reasons. If there was no threat of punishment in the afterlife, there wouldn't be the same power in believing in a heaven or the God that could send you wherever he wanted.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2013 18:30:14 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that there is necessarily an advantage of one over the other. A clearly specified list of law-based or works-based rules can be very comforting for some people. They just have to follow the rules and they're in. The grace concept is much more theoretical. While it makes sense, there is still a huge component of faith and hope required. The works based system is just a matter of sticking within the confines of the rules and you're good to go, so to speak. It seems to me a lack of faith, or a least a lack of faith in hell or permanent hell would be the most comforting. As long as you have a keen belief in a nasty and brutal hell as a possibility, death is always going to be difficult on some level. No doubt the once-saved-always-saved people have this as a big part of their motivation for developing such a doctrine. Yes, I think the most freeing thing I ever had happen to me was the day I realized there could not be a hell. Before that I was sure I was going. But knowing what I know now, hell makes absolutely no sense for a variety of reasons. I realized it was just a man made attempt at finding justice for those who had done them wrong and somehow didn't get judgement or punishment while still alive. Another reason was that churches found it to be a very good way of getting people to do what they wanted. To listen to their doctrines and obey them. Also for monetary reasons. If there was no threat of punishment in the afterlife, there wouldn't be the same power in believing in a heaven or the God that could send you wherever he wanted. The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"?
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Post by snow on Sept 16, 2013 20:07:44 GMT -5
Yes, I think the most freeing thing I ever had happen to me was the day I realized there could not be a hell. Before that I was sure I was going. But knowing what I know now, hell makes absolutely no sense for a variety of reasons. I realized it was just a man made attempt at finding justice for those who had done them wrong and somehow didn't get judgement or punishment while still alive. Another reason was that churches found it to be a very good way of getting people to do what they wanted. To listen to their doctrines and obey them. Also for monetary reasons. If there was no threat of punishment in the afterlife, there wouldn't be the same power in believing in a heaven or the God that could send you wherever he wanted. The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"? Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 16, 2013 20:31:43 GMT -5
The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"? Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. And for the purpose of clarity - that while I believe that hell exists, I don't share the view in the manner that snow presents.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 16, 2013 20:40:11 GMT -5
The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"? Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. Yes, I'm sure that was one of the reasons people believe in a "hell."
Just as some people will also say, "What goes around, comes around," -meaning how a person that mistreats someone else it will come back to them & they will be treated the same.
Of course it isn't true. Some people can treat someone very cruelly & never have to endure such themselves.
It just seems to be some kind of comfort to people to say this.
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 21:14:35 GMT -5
Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. Yes, I'm sure that was one of the reasons people believe in a "hell."
Just as some people will also say, "What goes around, comes around," -meaning how a person that mistreats someone else it will come back to them & they will be treated the same.
Of course it isn't true. Some people can treat someone very cruelly & never have to endure such themselves.
It just seems to be some kind of comfort to people to say this.
In general people who mistreat people pay a price, and people who selectively mistreat people generally pay a price at length.
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 21:24:40 GMT -5
Yes, I think the most freeing thing I ever had happen to me was the day I realized there could not be a hell. Before that I was sure I was going. But knowing what I know now, hell makes absolutely no sense for a variety of reasons. I realized it was just a man made attempt at finding justice for those who had done them wrong and somehow didn't get judgement or punishment while still alive. Another reason was that churches found it to be a very good way of getting people to do what they wanted. To listen to their doctrines and obey them. Also for monetary reasons. If there was no threat of punishment in the afterlife, there wouldn't be the same power in believing in a heaven or the God that could send you wherever he wanted. The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"? The doctrine of hell is not just a matter of politics. Remember that song by the Eagles, Tequilla Sunrise ".... Oh and its a hollow feeling, when it comes down to dealing friends .. . it never ends."
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 21:30:18 GMT -5
For all you good people that would be someone else's problem.
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 21:39:48 GMT -5
It's not just a belief in God that gives a Christian peace about death and the afterlife. It's what a person believes about Jesus that has the power to eliminate fear of death and bring joy and peace in this life. Most of the Christians who believe in salvation by grace and not works do not fear death. This is depicted in many of the stories of the exes who have left meetings behind them and are no longer are hoping to get to heaven by their works - who now believe they are saved by grace thru faith. Many describe how accepting their new understanding of salvation put away their fear of death and hell. Salvation by grace thru faith is a gift - and not merited by one's works. (stories are on the TLC Website and the books Reflections and Reflected Truth) I am a Christian and I can honestly say that I do not fear death. I know many other Christians who can say the same. It was understanding salvation by grace through faith that made all the difference. The word "grace" as used above is infused with the Christian meaning given to the word. Knowledge of the imputed righteousess of God has been cathartic to many people. As far as the historical revelation went God's son must have been God. How could they be grateful to mere man?
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Post by Lee on Sept 16, 2013 21:45:08 GMT -5
Hmm, no way to clean up the way you responded via quotes. So, I'll respond by saying the first response was sarcastic in answer to your 'why'. I don't really know if there is a God. So far I haven't seen proof of one. At least not one like the monotheistic religions talk about. The God of the OT is not a nice God and sounds like an adult having a 3 year old temper tantrum. So no, I don't believe in that God at all. For me, if there is a God, it wouldn't have any human characteristics. All the characteristics of the Gods that people have defined in their sacred books just sound like all powerful people. Their followers all say they they are loving and merciful, but then they attribute some pretty crazy and horrific actions to them. If heaven is so wonderful, I would think that everyone would be okay with death. Religion is supposed to be the balm on the fear of death, but truly, I don't see too many people who believe in God and heaven to be very comfortable with death. I am more comfortable with death then my sisters. They think it's terrible. I think it's natural and nothing to be feared. Maybe that's what separates the religious from the atheists. A greater tolerance for the unknown and death in general. And fools rush in where angels fear to tread... What do you think of my saying the 2x2's incorrectly entertain an ego-less Jesus, or an ego-suppressed Jesus? Isn't that their conception of him as they liken him to a lamb?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 16, 2013 21:45:09 GMT -5
The Christian concept of hell did not fully develop until the church found itself losing control of its converts. Which makes me wonder why the "gift of grace through faith" specialists have not discounted the validity of "hell" -- unless they see some value in its existence. Can you imagine what Christianity would look like today if it did not have "hell"? Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. See what hellish attitudes the church has fostered!!!
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Post by StAnne on Sept 16, 2013 21:48:37 GMT -5
Bob, St. Anne and I are having this discussion on another thread. I found when I was doing interviews that people I talked to seemed to think that hell was a good thing to have because there were people that needed to go there. That they felt it was justice to be tormented for eternity. Also when I tell someone I don't believe in hell sometimes I get a real angry response saying that there needs to be some after life justice for those that have done such horrific things. So I think at least some people wouldn't be happy if there wasn't a hell, at least for other people. See what hellish attitudes the church has fostered!!! snow references her own sources - not the Church - nor me.
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