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Post by faune on Jul 16, 2013 22:04:03 GMT -5
When did presenting historical facts become a bashing session? It is bashing when you present a false claim that the Church taught reincarnation - and additionally make an accusation of an attempt to hide it - and then fail to correct the error and retract the false statements. It is bashing when you present a version of the Inquisitions directed only at the Church - failing to present all sides of it - as if it were Church teaching (which it never was) - and if you're in to Inquisition (rather than bashing) I don't believe I've seen any reference to the Protestant Inquisitions while conducting your busy work. We indeed do not know for a fact that the version you are presenting is indeed 'historical facts' - they are often heavily biased and grossly inaccurate - but you're attesting that you have verified it all as facts? ... and you will happily accept the burden of verity for what you have shared ...? In conclusion, if you check out this article, you will find the number of "Holy Horrors" that were committed on both sides of the fence in the name of religion. This list not only includes both the Catholics and Protestants, but people of other religions as well ~ such as Islam, among others: www.antiochjubilee.com/id43.html (Inquistion Death Tolls)It just seems that one group learned from the other and their knowledge of torture and mayhem was passed down through the ages ~ not a good thing no matter how you look at it! Somehow the real teachings of Jesus were casted by the wayside and an agenda for gaining prestige and power replaced them under both Catholics and Protestant leadership according to these articles: www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num37.htm (Catholic Inquisitions & the Crusades)socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html (Protestant Reformation & Inquistion)
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Post by StAnne on Jul 16, 2013 23:24:29 GMT -5
It is bashing when you present a false claim that the Church taught reincarnation - and additionally make an accusation of an attempt to hide it - and then fail to correct the error and retract the false statements. It is bashing when you present a version of the Inquisitions directed only at the Church - failing to present all sides of it - as if it were Church teaching (which it never was) - and if you're in to Inquisition (rather than bashing) I don't believe I've seen any reference to the Protestant Inquisitions while conducting your busy work. We indeed do not know for a fact that the version you are presenting is indeed 'historical facts' - they are often heavily biased and grossly inaccurate - but you're attesting that you have verified it all as facts? ... and you will happily accept the burden of verity for what you have shared ...? In conclusion, if you check out this article, you will find the number of "Holy Horrors" that were committed on both sides of the fence in the name of religion. This list not only includes both the Catholics and Protestants, but people of other religions as well ~ such as Islam, among others: www.antiochjubilee.com/id43.htmlIt just seems that one group learned from the other and their knowledge of torture and mayhem was passed down through the ages ~ not a good thing no matter how you look at it! Somehow the real teachings of Jesus were casted by the wayside and an agenda for gaining prestige and power replaced them under both Catholics and Protestant leadership according to these articles: www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num37.htm (Catholic Inquisitions & the Crusades)socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html (Protestant Reformation & Inquistion) Yes - I'm aware of that site. Perhaps you noticed that there are ever so many resources there to read - to read all sides of it before we begin indicating one source only. To your earlier statement that Catholics killed Jews during that time - quite the opposite. www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4705
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Post by StAnne on Jul 16, 2013 23:33:50 GMT -5
Remember - we will all be held responsible for our words - written or otherwise. Interesting - a light just came on for me. This helps me understand your motivation, and why you stick strictly to acceptable catholic doctrine. Yes. That for sure. And in order to get the many nuances correct. The Church was there. She is in possession of documents and records. 1 Tim 3:15 tells us the church of the living God is the pillar and foundation of truth. And other reasons too.
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 10:08:35 GMT -5
In conclusion, if you check out this article, you will find the number of "Holy Horrors" that were committed on both sides of the fence in the name of religion. This list not only includes both the Catholics and Protestants, but people of other religions as well ~ such as Islam, among others: www.antiochjubilee.com/id43.htmlIt just seems that one group learned from the other and their knowledge of torture and mayhem was passed down through the ages ~ not a good thing no matter how you look at it! Somehow the real teachings of Jesus were casted by the wayside and an agenda for gaining prestige and power replaced them under both Catholics and Protestant leadership according to these articles: www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num37.htm (Catholic Inquisitions & the Crusades)socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html (Protestant Reformation & Inquistion) Yes - I'm aware of that site. Perhaps you noticed that there are ever so many resources there to read - to read all sides of it before we begin indicating one source only. To your earlier statement that Catholics killed Jews during that time - quite the opposite. www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4705 StAnne ~ I noticed that information came from a Catholic information site. However, here is an article that deals with the historical aspect of this alleged anti-Semetism. www.economist.com/node/770783However, I wish to add to this discussion that Martin Luther, who headed the Protestant Reformation Movement, was rumored to have been very anti-Semitic in later years from a Wiki reference. Whether that stemmed from his earlier Catholic roots or his own prejudice, I cannot say? Personally, I would just call it human prejudice manifesting itself in an ugly way! No doubt Luther's later professed hatred of the Jews contributed some to the Jewish Holocaust in Germany under Hitler, as such anti-Semitic views were also very apparent at that time? These following articles deals with this issue of Martin Luther and anti-Semitism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.htmlwww.gotquestions.org/Martin-Luther-anti-semitic.html
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 10:27:24 GMT -5
In addition to this subject matter, I would like to add some information on the Jewish Christian from this reference source to help undertand their place in the Church under Roman rule and the established Roman Catholic Church afterwards: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian
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Post by StAnne on Jul 17, 2013 10:42:05 GMT -5
Yes - I'm aware of that site. Perhaps you noticed that there are ever so many resources there to read - to read all sides of it before we begin indicating one source only. To your earlier statement that Catholics killed Jews during that time - quite the opposite. www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4705 StAnne ~ I noticed that information came from a Catholic information site. Yes, it did. The Church was there - they should know how it was handled - and should be allowed to speak it it's own voice. It should be self-evident since the Church did not and does not participate in nor embrace that kind of rhetoric or actions.
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 14:36:36 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for your input on this subject matter and also on the subject of reincarnation being rumored to once be a part of Christian teaching in the early church. Personally, I have always thought it fell under New Age teachings and never paid much attention to the subject until I read that article I cited earlier. It really blew my mind and I felt further research was definitely warranted. However, here is a general profile of New Age teaching and reincarnation is definitely found under the topics discussed. There is also reference to this idea that the early Church, particularly the RCC, squelched or suppressed completely the evidence of its existence in this New Age summary. Since this was something I never heard of before, I felt it was worthy of discussion to gain others insights on this matter. That being said, perhaps it's also would be helpful to give a brief summary of what New Age teaches and its views regarding reincarnation? Perhaps this article might help in gaining some understanding of this subject? Actually, this probably would be been better treated under a new thread, but as one topic leads into another on pro-boards, this is no exception. watchman.org/profiles/new-age-movement/New Age Movement
And here is the article from the same site above that deals with the question on whether the Bible teaches reincarnation and the verses that are used in support of it by New Age teachers: www.watchman.org/articles/new-age/does-the-bible-teach-reincarnation/Does the Bible Teach Reincarnation?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 17, 2013 14:46:23 GMT -5
StAnne ~ I noticed that information came from a Catholic information site. Yes, it did. The Church was there - they should know how it was handled - and should be allowed to speak it it's own voice. It should be self-evident since the Church did not and does not participate in nor embrace that kind of rhetoric or actions. How about this:Catholic Church and Pogroms"The Roman Catholic Church did not, for the most part, condone violence against Jews. The fathers of the Church developed, and the later popes beginning with Gregory I elaborated, a doctrine wherein the Jews were to be preserved, so that their suffering would be t estimony as to the correctness of Christian doctrine, until their final conversion at the end of days. However, the church preached a theology and devised a legal code that made it clear to all that Jews were inferior and accursed. Worshippers were regularly reminded that the Jews murdered God, in Masses and later in passion plays and church art such as the Judensau. Even those Papal Bulls that granted the Jews protection generally reminded the recipients that the Jews were an accursed race. It could scarcely have been surprising then, that the mobs, and often secular armies, plundered and murdered Jews at almost every opportunity."
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Post by StAnne on Jul 17, 2013 14:47:38 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for your input on this subject matter and also on the subject of reincarnation being rumored to once be a part of Christian teaching in the early church. Let's be clear here that my input was to squelch false information and claims that the Church ever taught reincarnation. Which it did NOT do.
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Post by StAnne on Jul 17, 2013 14:49:44 GMT -5
Yes, it did. The Church was there - they should know how it was handled - and should be allowed to speak it it's own voice. It should be self-evident since the Church did not and does not participate in nor embrace that kind of rhetoric or actions. How about this:Catholic Church and Pogroms"The Roman Catholic Church did not, for the most part, condone violence against Jews. The fathers of the Church developed, and the later popes beginning with Gregory I elaborated, a doctrine wherein the Jews were to be preserved, so that their suffering would be t estimony as to the correctness of Christian doctrine, until their final conversion at the end of days. However, the church preached a theology and devised a legal code that made it clear to all that Jews were inferior and accursed. Worshippers were regularly reminded that the Jews murdered God, in Masses and later in passion plays and church art such as the Judensau. Even those Papal Bulls that granted the Jews protection generally reminded the recipients that the Jews were an accursed race. It could scarcely have been surprising then, that the mobs, and often secular armies, plundered and murdered Jews at almost every opportunity." How about this you say ... Just be sure you'll be as proud of your quoted words when you stand before the Lord as you are here in this forum ...
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 15:30:48 GMT -5
I believe this section of the article I provided previously has a lot to do with the presumptions on reincarnation being found in the Bible by New Age supporters, such as Oprah Winfred and Shirley MacLaine. The Bible references used below are interesting to read in consideration of this pre-supposition. www.watchman.org/articles/new-age/does-the-bible-teach-reincarnation/
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 15:53:47 GMT -5
Now here is an interesting article regarding Origin and what he believed from his study of scripture on the pre-existence of souls. Perhaps a description of the same is in order to better understand this subject matter and this seems a good one? However, I do not see any correlation between what Origen believed and maybe taught and Mormonism, which resembles something out of a space odyssey with many Gods over different planets. In Mormonism, Jesus is introduced as the son of one of these gods along with Lucifer, his brother. Also, it speaks of many spirit children being born to this God and his many wives. Also, Mormons believe there are many gods over different planets. Origen never gave such a bizarre viewpoint in his interpretation of a few Bible scriptures that may suggest pre-existence of souls. How one Christian apologist, cited in my last article, came to that conclusion beats me? www.watchman.org/articles/new-age/does-the-bible-teach-reincarnation/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence (Check Section on the Teachings of Origen and his views on Pre-existence) www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Pre-existence.html (Condensed ~ Origen's teachings on Pre-existence)
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 17, 2013 15:59:32 GMT -5
How about this:Catholic Church and Pogroms"The Roman Catholic Church did not, for the most part, condone violence against Jews. The fathers of the Church developed, and the later popes beginning with Gregory I elaborated, a doctrine wherein the Jews were to be preserved, so that their suffering would be t estimony as to the correctness of Christian doctrine, until their final conversion at the end of days. However, the church preached a theology and devised a legal code that made it clear to all that Jews were inferior and accursed. Worshippers were regularly reminded that the Jews murdered God, in Masses and later in passion plays and church art such as the Judensau. Even those Papal Bulls that granted the Jews protection generally reminded the recipients that the Jews were an accursed race. It could scarcely have been surprising then, that the mobs, and often secular armies, plundered and murdered Jews at almost every opportunity." How about this you say ... Just be sure you'll be as proud of your quoted words when you stand before the Lord as you are here in this forum ...
Good lord, stanne!
Is that all you can do when when you get called on something you can't answer,?
Instead of answering with any proof, you just go the attack & start threatening someone with the "wrath of your god"?
Those aren't my words !
Here is the site: Zionism and Israel - Encyclopedic Dictionary Pogrom
But then, being a RC, perhaps you still believe what the "church" taught at that time?
After all, the RC doctrine is supposed to be so accurate that it doesn't change, does it?
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 16:52:49 GMT -5
StAnne ~ I noticed that information came from a Catholic information site. Yes, it did. The Church was there - they should know how it was handled - and should be allowed to speak it it's own voice. It should be self-evident since the Church did not and does not participate in nor embrace that kind of rhetoric or actions. StAnne ~ I'm not sure if I agree with your last statement, due to the archives of history that portray a different story? However, Snow pretty much stated my own position in this discussion based on my earlier findings in these sacred texts which astounded me. After reviewing it further, I do not believe Origen was promoting a belief in reincarnation, as some New Agers suggest. However, regarding the attitude towards the Jews by both the Catholics Popes and the Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther, I feel there may be more truth than fiction to that story. Of course, the RCC would want to "re-write history" in that area, and I feel the Catholic apologists do a great job of it regarding the Catholic Inquistions, Crusades, and the treatment of early Jewish Christians within the Church, IMHO? Snow shared earlier...
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 18:49:38 GMT -5
Now after all the argument over Origen and his teachings on pre-existence that got him ex-communicated by the Church, I wondered how in the world the RCC justified their teachings on Purgatory from canonized scripture and found out that they use outside sources to do so from their own apologetic website. My next question has to do with why the Maccabees letters were not included in the original canon, if they indeed were scriptural? Perhaps StAnne can answer that one for me? catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 19:02:35 GMT -5
Now here is the opening paragraphs regarding how to defend the doctrine of Purgatory according to this Catholic apologists circular reasoning used here along with the absence of scriptural references from the Bible actually caught my attention. Unfortunately, the Church's only way of justifying it was a reference to the book of Maccabees for support, which is outside of accepted biblical scriptures. However, I have to admit, this man is definitely on target in what he relates in his opening paragraph about purgatory and some of the other teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. His efforts to explain away their teaching on Purgatory is rather commendable. But, perhaps those of Catholic faith can shed a better light on this issue? Also, any other comments on the doctrine of Purgatory would be equally welcomed. catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html
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Post by rational on Jul 17, 2013 19:06:30 GMT -5
Show us credible - and widely accepted by mainstream Christianity pls - sources that verify the gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple. What about sources that are not accepted by mainstream christianity? It is like asking for proof that Joseph Smith was a fool from sources accepted by mainstream Mormonism. I think the best you will find about this is that they were both written by the same person - probably not Luke.
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 20:05:18 GMT -5
Show us credible - and widely accepted by mainstream Christianity pls - sources that verify the gospels were written after the destruction of the Temple. What about sources that are not accepted by mainstream christianity? It is like asking for proof that Joseph Smith was a fool from sources accepted by mainstream Mormonism. I think the best you will find about this is that they were both written by the same person - probably not Luke. Rational ~ Here's something I found on this subject matter. The secular site agrees with something Snow shared earlier on this topic, dating the gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts after A.D. 70. However, the Christian apolegetic site presents an argument that favors before A.D. 70. Both arguments sound feasible, so I guess you must go with your gut on this one? life.liegeman.org/historymaker/ntdocs4.html (This is support for after A.D. 70 from a secular site.) carm.org/when-was-acts-written (This is support for before A.D. 70 from a Christian apologetic site.)
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Post by StAnne on Jul 17, 2013 21:25:05 GMT -5
Also, any other comments on the doctrine of Purgatory would be equally welcomed. scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.htmlIII. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1031
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Post by StAnne on Jul 17, 2013 22:12:52 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the Church's only way of justifying it was a reference to the book of Maccabees for support, which is outside of accepted biblical scriptures. I see you have modified to 'accepted scriptures' ... accepted or not by whom? From your original wording - and my (deleted) response so that I could revise - which of course raises the question of why the seven books of Scripture were deleted - and by whose authority? - since Scripture clearly warns against taking away or adding to. My next question has to do with why the Maccabees letters were not included in the original canon, if they indeed were scriptural? Perhaps StAnne can answer that one for me? Why would you think or suggest that Maccabees I & II weren't in the original canon. Have you checked to see if they're still there? usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/They were in the KJV thru 1611 - as were the other six books of the original canon - until they were removed by the reformists. www.bible-1611.com/1-1611-39a.htmThe Canon of the Bible ... www.fisheaters.com/septuagint.html
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Post by faune on Jul 17, 2013 23:04:42 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for providing that history lesson on the reformers. So, I take it that Martin Luther removed those 7 books that were originally part of the biblical canon? I was unaware of that fact myself until reading the contents of your references. However, what about Pergatory? Can you share with us the verses from Wisdom 3:1-7 which spells out this intermediary realm for the dead? Also, was this what they used to justify the selling of indulgences and prayers for the dead through the Church ~ or was that based on some other scripture in another one of these deleted books to the Bible, due to changes by the reformers?
By the way, I want to add that I was using a Catholic site as my source and find it strange that they did not bring this pertinent information to light in their article? Actually, that is what percipitated my questions which remained unanswered by this so-called apologist of your faith ~ just for the record.
In addition, do you believe as the Mormons do in being baptized for the dead via proxy or do you believe that practice as unscriptural? *
*I believe I found my answer to that one at this Catholic website?
www.catholic.com/tracts/mormonisms-baptism-for-the-dead
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Post by StAnne on Jul 18, 2013 0:20:25 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for providing that history lesson on the reformers. So, I take it that Martin Luther removed those 7 books that were originally part of the biblical canon? I was unaware of that fact myself until reading the contents of your references. However, what about Pergatory? Can you share with us the verses from Wisdom 3:1-7 which spells out this intermediary realm for the dead? Also, was this what they used to justify the selling of indulgences and prayers for the dead through the Church ~ or was that based on some other scripture in another one of these deleted books to the Bible, due to changes by the reformers?
Wisdom 3 The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,a and no torment shall touch them. 2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction 3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.b 4 For if to others, indeed, they seem punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; 5 Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself.c 6 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings* he took them to himself.d 7 In the time of their judgment* they shall shine and dart about as sparks through stubble;e 8 They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever. usccb.org/bible/wisdom/3usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/#WisdomI posted this a few posts up ... perhaps you missed it ... an entire page of Scripture on Purgatory - including the Wisdom passage. scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
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Post by StAnne on Jul 18, 2013 0:24:15 GMT -5
Catholics do not practice baptism for the dead.
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Post by StAnne on Jul 18, 2013 0:33:17 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for providing that history lesson on the reformers. So, I take it that Martin Luther removed those 7 books that were originally part of the biblical canon? I was unaware of that fact myself until reading the contents of your references. However, what about Pergatory? Can you share with us the verses from Wisdom 3:1-7 which spells out this intermediary realm for the dead? Also, was this what they used to justify the selling of indulgences and prayers for the dead through the Church ~ or was that based on some other scripture in another one of these deleted books to the Bible, due to changes by the reformers?
Wisdom 3 The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,a and no torment shall touch them. 2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction 3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.b 4 For if to others, indeed, they seem punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; 5 Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself.c 6 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings* he took them to himself.d 7 In the time of their judgment* they shall shine and dart about as sparks through stubble;e 8 They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever. usccb.org/bible/wisdom/3usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/#WisdomI posted this a few posts up ... perhaps you missed it ... an entire page of Scripture & ECFs on Purgatory - including the Wisdom passage. scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.htmlIndulgences - go to catholic.com and enter Indulgences in the search box. One to start ... www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgences
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2013 0:57:56 GMT -5
Catholics do not practice baptism for the dead. I just found that out from the article I cited. However, you do pray for the dead in Pergatory and still believe in purchasing indulgences to aid their progress in that intermediary state, from what I have read? However, doesn't this teaching disagree just slightly with the vicarious atonement of Christ at the Cross as our substitute for sin? As a result of this, we believe that our sin debt was "paid in full" ~ which included past, present, and future sins for those who put their trust in Jesus as their Lord and Savior and Redeemer? That is what we call salvation by grace or unmerited favor. However, it appears the Catholics believe more in salvation by works, due to its teachings on Pergatory and indulgences and need for intercessory prayers for dead by the living? If the dead die only once and afterwards the judgment (Hebrews 9:27-28), then why the need for Pergatory if our decision in this life determines our eternal destiny? Are these souls in Pergatory considered saved souls in need of additional cleansing, since Jesus' blood was not sufficient enough at the Cross? * * After re-reading the second half of the original article I quoted from a Catholic apologist, I'm beginning to see where your teachings on Pergatory comes in, but it's far from crystal clear to me. catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0041.html
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2013 1:30:54 GMT -5
This is how the catholic apologist explains the purpose of pergatory in that previous article and also brings out one of my own concerns:
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2013 2:07:44 GMT -5
StAnne ~ You can tell me if this makes sense to you, but I feel that what you call Pergatory after death in the Catholic faith is what some Protestants call "the Bema Seat of Judgment" after death where the "saved are judged and purified before God as believers? Some will receive a greater reward than others because of what they did in this life to glorify Christ through their actions towards others. Perhaps this is what it means about "after death the judgment" in Hebrews 9:27-28? Since Paul states in II Corinthians 5:1-8 that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord," I feel this may be speaking of the Bema Seat of Judgment for believers? Also, I Thess. 4:1-8 backs up this fact. As for the unbelievers and the unsaved, it appears they wait until the Second Coming of Christ to be judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, which is reserved for all the unbelievers, both dead and alive. This Great White Throne Judgment, referenced in Revelations, occurs at the very end ~ after the Great Tribulation and Christ return, His milennial reign for a 1,000 years, and is the final judgment of the unbelieving dead along with Satan and his angels. bible-truth.org/FAQ-Death.html#004
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Post by faune on Jul 18, 2013 10:58:54 GMT -5
StAnne ~ Thank you for providing that history lesson on the reformers. So, I take it that Martin Luther removed those 7 books that were originally part of the biblical canon? I was unaware of that fact myself until reading the contents of your references. However, what about Pergatory? Can you share with us the verses from Wisdom 3:1-7 which spells out this intermediary realm for the dead? Also, was this what they used to justify the selling of indulgences and prayers for the dead through the Church ~ or was that based on some other scripture in another one of these deleted books to the Bible, due to changes by the reformers?
Wisdom 3 The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God,a and no torment shall touch them. 2 They seemed, in the view of the foolish, to be dead; and their passing away was thought an affliction 3 and their going forth from us, utter destruction. But they are in peace.b 4 For if to others, indeed, they seem punished, yet is their hope full of immortality; 5 Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself.c 6 As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings* he took them to himself.d 7 In the time of their judgment* they shall shine and dart about as sparks through stubble;e 8 They shall judge nations and rule over peoples, and the LORD shall be their King forever. usccb.org/bible/wisdom/3usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/#WisdomI posted this a few posts up ... perhaps you missed it ... an entire page of Scripture & ECFs on Purgatory - including the Wisdom passage. scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.htmlIndulgences - go to catholic.com and enter Indulgences in the search box. One to start ... www.catholic.com/tracts/myths-about-indulgencesStAnne ~ I had to be really tired to have missed those posts! Thanks for bringing them to my attention. I plan to review them more thoroughly as time permits, as I'm learning new things from this discussion and need time to process. However, you did a fine job of answering my questions earlier and I appreciate your efforts. Perhaps some of the removed books from the Bible will help explain some passages that have been confusing to me for some time?
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