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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 16:28:46 GMT -5
DMG ~ If you check out the verses you quoted from Matthew 24:14, 30-31 against the rest of the chapter and compare it to Acts 17:30-31 and Revelation 7:9-10, you see clearly that Jesus was referring to the end of this world and not immediately within his own generation. Be sure to check out that generation quote again and I believe you will see it's speaking about the last generation on this earth ~ not back in the first century!
I also realize that some may not appreciate me quoting Bible verses to back up the historical Jesus, but without them included, it would be hard to argue the relevancy of scripture as it applies to historical events back in time. Also, I wonder if you noticed an earlier post which spoke about the mysterious happenings recorded in the Roman historical archives relating to the earthquake, period of darkness, and the heavy temple curtain being torn in two along with and the strange occurrence at the temple gates around the time of the Passover in A.D. 33. I wish to point out that all of these occurrences are mentioned in all three of the synoptic gospel accounts as being visible at the time of the crucifixion.
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+24%3A14%2C+30-31%3B+Acts+17%3A30-31%3B+Revelation+7%3A9-10&version=AMP
DMG shared previously...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 16:30:37 GMT -5
DMG ~ Did you totally forget about the 40 days he appeared among his disciples after His crucifixion as proof of His resurrection, before His final ascension, as recorded in Acts 1 and 1 Corinthians 15, for starters?
Did they not see him again really soon after His crucifixion as proof of His resurrection and also witnessed his ascension into Heaven? Also, Jesus clearly presented that His Kingdom was not of this world. Although the Jews may have been looking for a Savior and Deliverer from Roman bondage, Jesus presented to them on more than one occasion that the Kingdom promised them was far greater than anything this earth has to offer in John 14 and John 17, for example.
No, I hadn't forgotten. Faune, have you forgotten Math. 24:30- when Jesus said "they would see the Son of man coming in clouds of heaven" and in "this generation would not pass away until all these things take place"?
It was this that I was referring to his disciples believed that they would see him return very soon because he said he would.
PS: I don't need biblegateway or billygraham sites. I had worked through those issues long ago on my own
i don't think we have enough information to know what those verses really mean, puzzling yes...deal breaker no...
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 16:37:01 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Sept 16, 2014 16:38:18 GMT -5
...neither do any of the verses give proof.
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 17:15:07 GMT -5
Faune, "For the Bible tells me so" doesn't constitute proof that anything happened. There may be independent historical evidence that suggests someone named Jesus existed and was crucified; even if that evidence turns out to be well-founded, one cannot just extrapolate to claim that the rest of the account must likewise be true....unless you are a believer, and then that is a matter of you expressing your faith and not a matter of established fact.
The "evidence" you have provided in your most recent post consists of Bible verses, and the opinion of a Christian evangelist who expounds on Bible verses using a "for the Bible tells me so" approach. Do you really expect people who do not consider the Bible a reliable historical document to take your "evidence" seriously? Matisse ~ Good to see you engaging in this discussion, too! The point I intended to make was that there are historical records from the Roman archives that verify that some of these events did occur in history back during the first century around Passover in A.D. 33. Since Jesus' ministry is mentioned within the gospel accounts to have lasted for about 3 years, and he began his ministry around 30 years old, it stands to reason that this date in time of 33 A.D. could easily coincide with his date of crucifixion and the events that followed? Also, the purpose of this thread from the very beginning was to bring out any historical evidence that actually backs up scripture surrounding Jesus' existence and ministry and all that followed.
Below are a few references I gave earlier to substantiate some of these events. I realize that some of you do not consider the Bible a reliable historical document, so that is why I have taken pains to back up my posts with actual events that did occur during the first century around the time of the crucifixion. Since there are people who actually believe that the whole Bible is a book of myths along with Jesus's existence, I feel it is necessary to back up my argument with tangible evidence from the archives of history. From what I have discovered myself, Jesus of Nazareth did actually exist back in time, had a following, did some healings among the people, and gained a major following especially after his death. That's an apparent fact from that time forward, IMHO?
Apparently, something happened to cause this later chain of events to take place? My argument is that the cornerstone of Christianity is based around the resurrection of Jesus and the ministry he instituted on this earth. He said more than once that His Kingdom was not of this world, so he made no false claims here as far as being a Messiah who would restore the Kingdom of Israel back to its rightful place here on earth. In both John 14 and John 17, Jesus speaks of a Heavenly Kingdom ~ not an earthly one! This thought is carried throughout the epistles of Paul and also the book of Revelation, which deals with the end times in all its symbolism.
So, I guess the bottom line is there sufficient evidence to suggest that the stories surrounding the resurrection and the ministry of the apostles that followed Jesus' death is enough to base one's faith upon? For me, it appears more than adequate to justify my continued faith in God, in spite of the gaps that might exists in historical records. However, I realize that's not the same with everybody who may have chosen a different path without God in the equation. My basis premise is that we cannot "throw out the baby with the bath water" just because of some gray areas that cannot be defined. I feel there is reason to believe in God's existence and that's what I wished to prove by this thread. However, I also realize that not everybody is going to be in agreement with me relating to this premise.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Jesus
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 17:33:01 GMT -5
...neither do any of the verses give proof. Matisse ~ Really? Would you care to elaborate, since I just demonstrated where some of these cataclysmic events recorded in the gospel accounts did occur during the first century and are recorded in the Roman historical archives. What evidence do you have to present, besides your personal opinion here?
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Post by matisse on Sept 16, 2014 18:13:20 GMT -5
...neither do any of the verses give proof. Matisse ~ Really? ::) Would you care to elaborate, since I just demonstrated where some of these cataclysmic events recorded in the gospel accounts did occur during the first century and are recorded in the Roman historical archives. What evidence do you have to present, besides your personal opinion here? Earthquakes, eclipses and other "cataclysmic events" are not that uncommon. This week, the Northern Lights have been seen in northern states in the US following intense solar storms. I've lost count of how many volcanoes are active or threatening to be active around the world. You are concocting a line between reported cataclysmic events that reportedly happened 2000 years ago and some kind of divine intervention. You find references in Roman historical archives to someone named Jesus who was crucified. I have no problem with that. However, you have nothing other than sketchy anecdotal evidence (hearsay) recorded long after the fact of supposed "healings", reports of "witnesses", and reports of a crucified man "walking for 40 days among his disciples." There is NO proof of the "miracles" happening as reported - no matter how many of the gospels mention them, and there is absolutely NO proof of Jesus being resurrected....no matter how many times it is mentioned in the Bible, no matter how popular Christianity became, no matter how many disciples were reportedly willing to be tortured and put to death for their beliefs, no matter how fervently you believe it happened, no matter how invested you are in these things being true. I have no problem with you having faith. I do take exception to your claim of "proof."
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 16, 2014 18:43:04 GMT -5
Faune said:
For me, it appears more than adequate to justify my continued faith in God, in spite of the gaps that might exists in historical records. However, I realize that's not the same with everybody who may have chosen a different path without God in the equation. My basis premise is that we cannot "throw out the baby with the bath water" just because of some gray areas that cannot be defined."
Faune, Just because of historical records from the Roman archives and geologists findings of cataclysmic events of an earthquake or solar eclipse during the first century around Passover in A.D. 33, -- why should it verify the gospel stories of Jesus RESURRECTION?
That is what we are talking about!
The RESURRECTION nothing to do with "gaps in historical records" or "throwing out the baby with the bath water" Those aren't gray areas, they are completely different areas!
The belief in the RESURRECTION is a paranormal event not a factual event like Jesus death!
I'll say this again:
The first gospel written was 30 - 40 years after Jesus death, maybe even later, -so they would have known about the earthquake?
The gospel writers didn't aim to write a factual biography of Jesus . So why wouldn't they work the story of the earth quake into their story? Biblical scholars realize that the gospels weren't meant to be biographies.
As I said before, we understand that the gospel writers didn't even aim to write a factual biography of Jesus as we know biographical writers do today.
They weren't meaning to be dishonest in how they presented it. They, and the people that were reading the story, knew the gospels weren't an exact factual account. They were never meant to be!
L. Michael White: Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin
GOSPELS ARE NOT BIOGRAPHIES
"The gospels are not biographies in the modern sense of the word. Rather, they are stories told in such a way as to evoke a certain image of Jesus for a particular audience. They're trying to convey a message about Jesus, about his significance to the audience and thus we we have to think of them as a kind of preaching, as well as story telling. That's what the gospel, The Good News, is really all about.
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Post by matisse on Sept 16, 2014 18:47:27 GMT -5
....However, there is reference to an earthquake and possible solar eclipse where the sky darkened around this time and also to an occurrence with the temple curtain recorded in history around Passover and the time of the crucifixion. These references were included in a post on Page 10 relating to these cataclysmic events that are recorded back in time. They are posted again below for your information.
Faune, starting with the first of the three links, did you notice the following section of the nbc news report?
This last possibility seems most sensible to me....a local earthquake that took place sometime during a 10 year period that was strong enough to leave a discoverable impression in the sediments, but not strong enough to be recorded in surviving documents other than the Bible. There is NO modern evidence that pinpoints an earthquake happening on the particular Friday afternoon that some people believe corresponds to the crucifixion of Jesus. The team studying the earthquake evidence can only say that an earthquake probably took place sometime between 26 and 36 A.D....A SPAN OF TEN YEARS!!! The second and third links that you shared, imo, are just more tiresome apologetics written for the benefit of believers like you who are looking for ways to justify their faith. Here is a link for you. It is a discussion of the many "predictions" of Nostradamas, and how it may appear to some that many of his "prophesies" have come true: How Nostradamas Works
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2014 19:02:54 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Really? Would you care to elaborate, since I just demonstrated where some of these cataclysmic events recorded in the gospel accounts did occur during the first century and are recorded in the Roman historical archives. What evidence do you have to present, besides your personal opinion here? Earthquakes, eclipses and other "cataclysmic events" are not that uncommon. This week, the Northern Lights have been seen in northern states in the US following intense solar storms. I've lost count of how many volcanoes are active or threatening to be active around the world. You are concocting a line between reported cataclysmic events that reportedly happened 2000 years ago and some kind of divine intervention. You find references in Roman historical archives to someone named Jesus who was crucified. I have no problem with that. However, you have nothing other than sketchy anecdotal evidence (hearsay) recorded long after the fact of supposed "healings", reports of "witnesses", and reports of a crucified man "walking for 40 days among his disciples." There is NO proof of the "miracles" happening as reported - no matter how many of the gospels mention them, and there is absolutely NO proof of Jesus being resurrected....no matter how many times it is mentioned in the Bible, no matter how popular Christianity became, no matter how many disciples were reportedly willing to be tortured and put to death for their beliefs, no matter how fervently you believe it happened, no matter how invested you are in these things being true. I have no problem with you having faith. I do take exception to your claim of "proof." you know on judgment day(i know you dont believe in it)telling God there was no "proof" isn't gonna fly...
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 16, 2014 20:29:24 GMT -5
Earthquakes, eclipses and other "cataclysmic events" are not that uncommon. This week, the Northern Lights have been seen in northern states in the US following intense solar storms. I've lost count of how many volcanoes are active or threatening to be active around the world. You are concocting a line between reported cataclysmic events that reportedly happened 2000 years ago and some kind of divine intervention. You find references in Roman historical archives to someone named Jesus who was crucified. I have no problem with that. However, you have nothing other than sketchy anecdotal evidence (hearsay) recorded long after the fact of supposed "healings", reports of "witnesses", and reports of a crucified man "walking for 40 days among his disciples." There is NO proof of the "miracles" happening as reported - no matter how many of the gospels mention them, and there is absolutely NO proof of Jesus being resurrected....no matter how many times it is mentioned in the Bible, no matter how popular Christianity became, no matter how many disciples were reportedly willing to be tortured and put to death for their beliefs, no matter how fervently you believe it happened, no matter how invested you are in these things being true. I have no problem with you having faith. I do take exception to your claim of "proof." you know on judgment day(i know you dont believe in it)telling God there was no "proof" isn't gonna fly... Wally, Speaking for myself, I will continue to ask "God" for "proof" even on judgment day!
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 21:28:41 GMT -5
DMG shared ~
DMG ~ I believe you will ask for proof even then! LOL However, as I stated earlier, the purpose of this thread was to discover any proof that verifies the events found within the Bible relating to the life of Jesus which can be regarded as factual. Granted, there could have been some additions over the years to the gospel accounts by the RCC to promote Christianity; however, I was looking for historical evidence of Jesus' existence and any events recorded in the gospel accounts. I believe I did find what I was looking for in that respect and provided links to the same. However, unless you were there to witness the resurrection in person, how can you disclaim it never occurred and was a concoction by the Church? I believe you are also lacking in evidence to the contrary as much as I may be lacking in proof of the resurrection occurrence, IMHO? Honestly, can you provide any evidence that it didn't occur either? I will be awaiting your answer to that one beyond any presumption regarding the same.
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Post by matisse on Sept 16, 2014 21:37:04 GMT -5
Earthquakes, eclipses and other "cataclysmic events" are not that uncommon. This week, the Northern Lights have been seen in northern states in the US following intense solar storms. I've lost count of how many volcanoes are active or threatening to be active around the world. You are concocting a line between reported cataclysmic events that reportedly happened 2000 years ago and some kind of divine intervention. You find references in Roman historical archives to someone named Jesus who was crucified. I have no problem with that. However, you have nothing other than sketchy anecdotal evidence (hearsay) recorded long after the fact of supposed "healings", reports of "witnesses", and reports of a crucified man "walking for 40 days among his disciples." There is NO proof of the "miracles" happening as reported - no matter how many of the gospels mention them, and there is absolutely NO proof of Jesus being resurrected....no matter how many times it is mentioned in the Bible, no matter how popular Christianity became, no matter how many disciples were reportedly willing to be tortured and put to death for their beliefs, no matter how fervently you believe it happened, no matter how invested you are in these things being true. I have no problem with you having faith. I do take exception to your claim of "proof." you know on judgment day(i know you dont believe in it)telling God there was no "proof" isn't gonna fly... Yeah, I haven't lost any sleep over that for over 25 years!
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 16, 2014 22:14:57 GMT -5
DMG shared ~
DMG ~ I believe you will ask for proof even then! LOL However, as I stated earlier, the purpose of this thread was to discover any proof that verifies the events found within the Bible relating to the life of Jesus which can be regarded as factual. Granted, there could have been some additions over the years to the gospel accounts by the RCC to promote Christianity; however, I was looking for historical evidence of Jesus' existence and any events recorded in the gospel accounts. I believe I did find what I was looking for in that respect and provided links to the same. However, unless you were there to witness the resurrection in person, how can you disclaim it never occurred and was a concoction by the Church? I believe you are also lacking in evidence to the contrary as much as I may be lacking in proof of the resurrection occurrence, IMHO? Honestly, can you provide any evidence that it didn't occur either? I will be awaiting your answer to that one beyond any presumption regarding the same. OMG, faune!
I have already stated it all before!.
Haven't we all, including you, by now realized that the burden of proof is on the person who makes an argument for supernatural and paranormal beings & incidents ?
The burden of proof IS NOT on someone else to dis-prove them? How can anyone go about dis-proving such stuff as supernatural beings?
I didn't expect YOU to dis-prove the supernatural gods of the Vedas!
Now, I'm tired of explaining. So, NOW I AM going to challenge YOU to dis-prove those gods from the Vedas EVER existed.
I will be awaiting your answer to that one beyond any presumption.
(Now I have to get back to work on the water logged stuff in basement)
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 22:19:29 GMT -5
....However, there is reference to an earthquake and possible solar eclipse where the sky darkened around this time and also to an occurrence with the temple curtain recorded in history around Passover and the time of the crucifixion. These references were included in a post on Page 10 relating to these cataclysmic events that are recorded back in time. They are posted again below for your information.
Faune, starting with the first of the three links, did you notice the following section of the nbc news report?
This last possibility seems most sensible to me....a local earthquake that took place sometime during a 10 year period that was strong enough to leave a discoverable impression in the sediments, but not strong enough to be recorded in surviving documents other than the Bible. There is NO modern evidence that pinpoints an earthquake happening on the particular Friday afternoon that some people believe corresponds to the crucifixion of Jesus. The team studying the earthquake evidence can only say that an earthquake probably took place sometime between 26 and 36 A.D....A SPAN OF TEN YEARS!!! The second and third links that you shared, imo, are just more tiresome apologetics written for the benefit of believers like you who are looking for ways to justify their faith. Here is a link for you. It is a discussion of the many "predictions" of Nostradamas, and how it may appear to some that many of his "prophesies" have come true: How Nostradamas WorksMatisse ~ From googling the source of Nostradamus, I discovered that possibly ten of his predictions are rumored to have come true; however, he also predicted the end of the world in 2012, and we are still here, aren't we?
However, the topic under discussion was not Nostradamus, but Jesus of Nazareth and any historical evidence to back up his existence. Also, the article regarding mysterious events in history around Passover time around Jesus' crucifixion can not be discarded that easily. I suggest you check the people referenced for content, as the contributors quoted were all from the first century in Rome around this time. Also, please check out this additional information (with permission of StAnne, who has followed this thread,) regarding the same occurrence in history. It's pretty hard to deny this evidence, since it is part of historical record. However, the claims of the 16th century soothsayer, Nostradamus is open to debate, IMHO? Here's an article that debunks at least ten (10) of Nostradamus' predictions that some claim actually came true. I presume you submitted this link more in the area of tongue-in-cheek humor; however, Nostradamus' predictions are worded in such a way that anything can be read into them down through the ages, and such is self evident.
www.ensignmessage.com/archives/mysteriousevents.html (Mysterious events surrounding the crucifixion account.)
listverse.com/2007/09/14/top-10-prophecies-of-nostradamus-debunked/
StAnne shared earlier...
This last reference above is in regard to DMG's question to me a couple pages back regarding the dead saints arising from the graves and walking around town and why I didn't think it happened, but felt it was added at a latter date. The link above refers to that reference in Matthew 27:52-53, and pretty much agrees with my own thoughts along those lines.
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 22:56:33 GMT -5
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Post by faune on Sept 16, 2014 23:49:47 GMT -5
Before I retire for the night, I want to offer one more article with a number of historical references contained within its contents that not only provides historical evidence for Jesus existence, but also support for the fact that early Christians regarded him as the Messiah or the anointed one and also as God in the flesh, and this was fact during the beginning of the second century (112 A.D.) and not the 4th century, as some would like to claim today.
www.denisonforum.org/why-jesus
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 17, 2014 1:36:43 GMT -5
Before I retire for the night, I want to offer one more article with a number of historical references contained within its contents that not only provides historical evidence for Jesus existence, but also support for the fact that early Christians regarded him as the Messiah or the anointed one and also as God in the flesh, and this was fact during the beginning of the second century (112 A.D.) and not the 4th century, as some would like to claim today. Instead of one more article for us to read, do you plan to answer my last post? "Haven't we all, including you, by now realized that the burden of proof is on the person who makes an argument for supernatural and paranormal beings & incidents ?
The burden of proof IS NOT on someone else to dis-prove them? How can anyone go about dis-proving such stuff as supernatural beings?
I didn't expect YOU to dis-prove the supernatural gods of the Vedas!
Now, I'm tired of explaining. So, NOW I AM going to challenge YOU to dis-prove those gods from the Vedas EVER existed."
I will be awaiting your answer to that one beyond any presumption."I am still waiting!
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 3:44:49 GMT -5
Time frame of earthquake: sometime during a TEN YEAR stretch of time. Were (are?) earthquakes uncommon in that region of the earth? Don't blame the Trojan Horse: Earthquakes toppled ancient cities, Stanford geophysicist says
Your links, again, are geared to believers like yourself who have a lot at stake.....who are "heavily invested" in a belief that Jesus was/is "God" and who are "heavily invested" in a belief that the biblical account is reliable. From my point of view, you are running around in circles with your "arguments" and have failed to produce anything compelling beyond some extra-biblical evidence that someone named Jesus existed, had followers, and was put to death. Again, I have no objection to you having faith. I continue, however, to take exception to your dogged insistence that you have any kind of proof of the veracity of claims of the supernatural (Jesus as God, miracles, resurrection, etc.) that are made in the Bible.
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Post by nswelshman on Sept 17, 2014 6:37:44 GMT -5
And wasn't that was very clever for Jesus to answer in such a manner? That answer kept him from having to attempt such a feat while at the same time making an excuse.
He set a good example for the apologists of today!
DMG ~ I believe you once said Jesus never referred to himself as God in the flesh, but did you notice those words of Jesus to Satan's temptations?
First post on something that caught my attention. Satan was tempting Jesus to tempt God by casting himself from the temple. Jesus wasn't referring to himself as God but was saying that he shouldn't tempt God into saving him (Jesus) by jumping off the temple. If that makes any sense.
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 7:30:37 GMT -5
Makes sense to me. It also makes perfect sense to me that any impulse to ask and expect "God" to deliver "miracles on demand" would be squashed early on as being in poor taste!
By the way, welcome nswelshman.
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 8:37:56 GMT -5
Let's just take one of your references, to start: The Talmud makes note of Jesus' miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as "on the eve of the Feast of the Passover" in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus' death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events.
Have you investigated the veracity of these claims? or did you swallow them whole because they "confirm" what you really want confirmed? If you look more closely you will find significant controversy and good reasons to doubt their legitimacy. "Jesus in the Talmud"---- By the way, my earlier reference to Nostradamus was to illustrate how believers will "see" what they want to see in order to feel reassured about their beliefs. You apparently are not invested in a belief that Nostradamus could truly foresee the future, so you are not inclined to "swallow whole" the accounts of his "successes." Similarly, I think if you were to read the writings of Mormon apologists (for example) defending The Book of Mormon and its teachings, you would not be nearly as impressed as you are by the writings of Christian apologists who tend to tell you what you want to hear about the basis of your beliefs. I would suggest to you that there are Mormons who find just as much reassurance of their faith in Mormon teachings by reading the writings of Mormon apologists as you find reassurance of your faith by reading mainstream Christian apologists. I recommend that you stick to your faith, since clearly it means a lot to you. My view, from outside of the realm of Christian faith, is that you have nothing compelling to offer other than some indication that someone named Jesus lived, had followers, and was put to death. The rest, IMO, is hand-waving.
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Post by rational on Sept 17, 2014 9:19:41 GMT -5
...neither do any of the verses give proof. Matisse ~ Really? ::) Would you care to elaborate, since I just demonstrated where some of these cataclysmic events recorded in the gospel accounts did occur during the first century and are recorded in the Roman historical archives. What evidence do you have to present, besides your personal opinion here? The earthquake that is being presented as a possibility has the accuracy of 10 years. To narrow down the time frame the bible was used as reference. To everyone's surprise the bible verified itself to be true! Knowledge of solar eclipses is easy to verify. Was there an eclipse in that area during the time frame in question? Who cares - Passover is at the time of the full moon and solar eclipses only occur at the time of the new moon. You are looking for historical accuracy from a verse that states dead people rose from their graves and walked the streets.
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Post by faune on Sept 17, 2014 10:03:30 GMT -5
DMG ~ I believe you once said Jesus never referred to himself as God in the flesh, but did you notice those words of Jesus to Satan's temptations?
First post on something that caught my attention. Satan was tempting Jesus to tempt God by casting himself from the temple. Jesus wasn't referring to himself as God but was saying that he shouldn't tempt God into saving him (Jesus) by jumping off the temple. If that makes any sense. Nswelshman ~ That's the way I have always read that verse in the past myself. However, I could see in the mental exchange between Jesus and Satan the possibility of an exchange similar to that between God and Satan in Job 1, in that Jesus was using Old Testament scripture spoken by God Himself to counter Satan's suggestion. Since Satan recognized Jesus as God in the flesh, that would make sense, in a way? Anyway, do you get my drift in this illustration?
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job+1
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Post by faune on Sept 17, 2014 10:16:13 GMT -5
Matisse ~ Really? Would you care to elaborate, since I just demonstrated where some of these cataclysmic events recorded in the gospel accounts did occur during the first century and are recorded in the Roman historical archives. What evidence do you have to present, besides your personal opinion here? The earthquake that is being presented as a possibility has the accuracy of 10 years. To narrow down the time frame the bible was used as reference. To everyone's surprise the bible verified itself to be true! Knowledge of solar eclipses is easy to verify. Was there an eclipse in that area during the time frame in question? Who cares - Passover is at the time of the full moon and solar eclipses only occur at the time of the new moon. You are looking for historical accuracy from a verse that states dead people rose from their graves and walked the streets. Rational ~ You make some valid points here. However, this account goes back about 20 centuries, so the fact they geologists could verify these events within a 10 year time frame I consider pretty darn good. Also, in relating to the period of darkness at the time of the crucifixion, the NBC news article felt it could have been a dust storm that occurred back then and are looking into that angle?
However, in relation to the part of that verse where the dead people rose from their graves and walked the streets, I feel that was a later addition to the Bible from all accounts, including Bible scholars. StAnne's article she shared for this thread also pointed to the same conclusion.
www.nbcnews.com/id/47555983/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/quake-reveals-day-jesus-crucifixion-researchers-believe/#.VA-6kk10xjp
A list of Church Fathers that includes Matthew 27:52 and 53 www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-about-matthew-2752-and-53
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 10:23:32 GMT -5
Determining that an earthquake took place during a particular 10 year period in a region with a long history of seismic activity doesn't strike me as being particularly noteworthy.
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Post by faune on Sept 17, 2014 10:30:20 GMT -5
Determining that an earthquake took place during a particular 10 year period in a region with a long history of seismic activity doesn't strike me as being particularly noteworthy. Matisse & DMG ~ Maybe it is not noteworthy to both of you, but it still helps to verify the story surrounding the crucifixion account, regardless of the 10 year window of error. Also, as I pointed out earlier, I was trying to find any historical evidence that backs up the gospel accounts of Jesus' existence and crucifixion. I realize I cannot prove the resurrection account, but how do you explain Christianity spreading as it did, if it wasn't for some real evidence of this supernatural event occurring and Jesus proving himself to be alive during those 40 days afterwards to his disciples? Something supernatural had to occur to stimulate such an interest and belief in Jesus, which is my point here. If it was just some myth made up and passed around, I'm sure it would have long faded from existence by now?
Also, as I pointed out in my last article posted, people were believing that Jesus was the Messiah and God in the flesh even during the first and second centuries, as StAnne brought out in her reference to the Talmud, in her response she allowed me to share.
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Post by matisse on Sept 17, 2014 10:49:58 GMT -5
Determining that an earthquake took place during a particular 10 year period in a region with a long history of seismic activity doesn't strike me as being particularly noteworthy. Matisse ~ Maybe it is not noteworthy to you, but it still helps to verify the story surrounding the crucifixion account, regardless of the window of error. The idea of an earthquake taking place in a region with a history of seismic activity is not outlandish. That is all one can say with any certainty. No! All it would take is for the conditions to be right to support social change...a "tipping point", if you will. No supernatural forces required, only the "force" of the human imagination!
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