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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 16:57:17 GMT -5
You were perfectly clear. However, in the early days, he was well known--especially back where this all started. Once he became a pariah, Jack Carroll did a good job of making sure those in the West who had heard him never mentioned him. I don't know about Ireland or Scotland, as all my professing family came from the NW during the days of Jack Carroll. When I was in the work in Oregon 1990s, I heard some of the older workers mention of William Irvine. The Duncan's who had the Boring convention ground for many years, the husband talked a lot about Ireland and Scotland days because he came from the UK. Jack Carroll wrote 2 letters in 1919 to warn the friends and workers in the Northwest Calf, Oregon, and Washington about WI.Letter #1 By Jack Carroll Warning Against Wm. Irvine's New Doctrine April 16, 1919My dear Brother or Sister: It is with the utmost sorrow of heart that I feel compelled to write you this letter. Feeling my responsibility towards all the lambs and sheep of His flock in California, (USA) and knowing some are worried and troubled because of recent developments I feel I must write you a few lines. During last few months, William Irvine has written many letter to saints all over U.S. and Canada urging them to sell their homes and farms and invest their money in Railroads, Fisheries, Canneries, Shipping, etc. He is under the awful delusion that he is one of the witnesses of Rev. 11 and prophesied a world wide drought and famine beginning August 1 of this year. (See Deut 18:21-22, we have only a little time to wait to prove whether this prophecy is correct or not). He is also under the delusion that the “day of grace ended in August 1914,” and that since that date “the voice of God has not been heard in any meeting on earth.” This means that, according to him none have been truly born again during the last four and a half years, and that the labors of all the workers in every field has been utterly in vain. We believe on the contrary, that during the last 4-1/2 years, in spite of greater difficulties than ever before, men and women were as truly born of God as in all the years before. It is just 4-1/2 years ago since the older workers in old country told William Irvine that they could no longer recognize him as leader, or again as being in the ministry unless there was a complete change in his manner of life. It is sad to see a man who was once used of God fall thus into “the snare of the devil” and perhaps will succeed as Hymenaeus and Philetus in “overthrowing the faith of some”. Paul’s advice in 2 Timothy 2:16-18 is the counsel of God to all of us at that time. It has always been understood in the work that when a worker interferes with the financial or business affairs of the saints, he has departed from the faith. 2 Tim. 2:4; Luke 12:13,14. My purpose in writing is to earnestly urge you not to be influenced by his foolish speculations and prophecies, and not to listen to him or any others who would seek to seduce or lead astray, or to cause you in any way to take steps which would wreck your home and family and make you a stumbling block to others. When Paul was writing to young converts of the Lord’s Coming in 1 Thes 4:13-18 he did not exhort them to sell their homes and farms and invest their money in other properties, but rather to (v.11) “study to be quiet, to do their own business, work with their own hands, as we commanded you, that ye may walk honestly toward them that are without and have need of nothing”. This means that whether the Lord comes soon or later, it is the duty of the saints to carry on their business as always in the fear of the Lord, and with a desire to glorify His Name. In doing this they will “not be ashamed before Him at His coming”. His teaching on other matters is equally false and misleading and it is with much sorrow of heart that I have to add that my sister, May, W. Edwards, and wife have recently come again under the influence of William Irvine’s hypnotic personality, and for the time being at least, are deceived and not in a position to help or guide those who in simplicity of heart and true purpose seek to follow Jesus in the way. We feel that it would give those who have “gone astray” an opportunity to say they were “persecuted”, “oppressed”, “cast out” if we were to add more. Enough has been said to warn against the delusions mentioned, and we will be glad to hear from all who desire, and will value our help and fellowship in the coming months and years. You will understand a little of what it costs me to write this letter but I feel it is my duty as His servant to take the saints into my fullest confidence and assuring each and all of my love and honest desire to be a faithful shepherd, I commit you to the care of the Chief Shepherd, knowing that if you follow where He leads, you will not go astray. Your brother in His love and Service Jack Carroll Hi Nathan, Interesting letter. Where did you get it from. What were some of the workers names , if any , that you heard others speak about , that would have predated William Irvine, in the work. Thanks Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 17:24:15 GMT -5
Thanks, Nathan. Did you ever hear any workers name spoken, amongst the older workers , who was in the work before William Irvine? What were some or any of the names. I have one exworker friend telling me he knows the name of someone professing, who William Irvine got the truth from, who had a meeting in his home, and their daughter went into the work, but the parents did not want their name advertised as they did not want to take any glory from the truth . I called bs on him and he gets quite noisy about it , and I thought if you could help him out with a name, it would support his case. thanks. Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 18:33:27 GMT -5
Thanks, Nathan. Did you ever hear any workers name spoken, amongst the older workers, who was in the work before William Irvine? ~~ No, because the senior/older workers my days were not born yet, so they wouldn't know.What were some or any of the names. I have one exworker friend telling me he knows the name of someone professing, who William Irvine got the truth from, who had a meeting in his home, and their daughter went into the work, but the parents did not want their name advertised as they did not want to take any glory from the truth . I called bs on him and he gets quite noisy about it, and I thought if you could help him out with a name, it would support his case. thanks. Alvin ~~ This ex-worker might be right... Did this ex-worker friend of yours tell you the name of the folks who had meetings in their home? and their daughter name that went in the work? So, we can check it out.From RGR in Canada, Ontario. Dec, 2005 Hi Nathan,While staying in our home a few days in November, 2005, George Gittins, a senior Manitoba worker told us the following story: One year in the early 1970s George was in charge of facilities at the Calloway, Nebraska USA convention. At about 3:00 a.m. one night during the convention the wind got up and George decided to get out of bed and make sure the big meeting tent was properly tied down to withstand the gale. After he had secured the tent and was about to head back to bed he happened to notice someone walking down the road in the dark. As the figure approached, George recognized the person to be Robert Darling, one of the visiting workers. (The first known workers' list indicates Rob Darling went into the ministry in Ireland 1905.) George decided to start whistling as he did not want to scare the poor man. When they connected, George asked Robert if everything was okay, to which he replied in the affirmative. Robert told him that often when he can't sleep at night he gets up and goes for a walk. George said to him "I bet you are missing a good cup of tea. I was recently sent some good Red Rose tea from Canada, so let's go over to the cook house and I'll make you a good cup of tea." Robert readily agreed. So between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. during the middle of convention the two men sat in the cook house drinking tea made the proper way (start with fresh water, don't boil it too long, heat the pot first etc.). During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert talked about the early days. George told Robert that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in Ireland, but wondered if he would tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so. He told George that William Irvine heard the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to Ireland from the Alps region of Germany, Switzerland, France = Waldensians! some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to Ireland as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.) In any event, this family told William's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meetings in their home. After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William, who was preaching for the Faith Mission in Ireland. He came and met these folks and after hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was baptized. William then left the Faith Mission (12/1900) and went out into the ministry as the first modern day worker. The following day George Gittens went to see Garret Hughes who was also at the convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garret's comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there. I suggested to George that this story should really be told because it seemed to add an important piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places confused and bitter about the origins of our faith. George's comment was, "Yes, I agree it should be told. You can tell this story to whomever you wish." I asked George about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry--I believe, in North America. Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why, George was not sure. Perhaps they did not want the undue attention.) So George did not pursue finding out their name/s and, I presume, at the time the names were incidental to Robert's very interesting story. Robert did tell George, however, that he knew the family concerned and had been in their home.
In a later discussion George said that it was certainly scriptural for William Irvine and his sister to profess and be baptized through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts. George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased) were together in BC, Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "The Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship", had come to visit them (Cornelius had professed through Calvin). George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was not surprised because Robert's story was consistent with things he had heard over the years and come across in his research.
RGR, December, 2005 No, he has no name to share. He implies it is to protect the kingdom, or something to that effect, and the people did not want their name shared etc. . Yes, he also uses the same vague story that George repeats, with varying versions thereof. We have had George in our home lots, and have heard most of those versions. George spent a lot of time in our home, and I give him credit for telling us lots and lots of stuff, that we sure did not even imagine went on. He was around at the period of time we were being excommunicated but did not have the power to prevent it ,bless his soul. He was unique in many ways. Maybe , someday , I will have liberty to share some of his experiences, but just not now for sure. He is a good man, did the best he could with what he had, just like so many of us. Alvin
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 21, 2014 18:52:11 GMT -5
I guess, at the very least, we can appreciate they didn't fabricate a name, that did not exist, but of course, HONESTY always is the best and there has been lots and lots of speculation etc, and has led to dishonesty and pretence. Sad , really, because there was nothing so terribly bad with the history etc. that was to be ashamed of. Like you said, the bible is full of stories that don't always make things look good, and some downright shameful ones, but honesty gains far more credibility than some vague coverup bologna story , that makes everything else that person says or write questionable. I wonder if it is too late for the church to come clean. I think there would be some fallout, but surely , the least we could expect from the truth is the truth? hmmmmm oxymoron or what is the right word I'm looking for ? Alvin
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Post by snow on Dec 21, 2014 19:42:17 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure that Uncle Willy was the first one. He just took bits and pieces of other faith types and stirred them up and served them as 2x2's. There is enough difference in his version that no one can legitimately claim that there is an unbroken succession of workers going back to Jesus 'exactly' like the 2x2 group do.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 23, 2014 0:19:24 GMT -5
The pious, egalitarian, camaraderie generated from the act of "giving away all possessions" is intoxicating, and will be for many generations to come. While capitalism optimizes the spirit of our age, I don't know that it can produce a sustainable earth. In hindsight we may look upon the 2x2's as visionaries were we to compare them with their Christian counterparts. I've gotten dunes for donations from 2 of the places that prepare holiday meals for anyone who wants to walk in off the street. They used to keep it only for the homeless but now anyone and this burns me up.....people who have the money end up there to eat to "save" money! Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
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Post by What Hat on Dec 24, 2014 11:07:54 GMT -5
Thanks, Nathan. Did you ever hear any workers name spoken, amongst the older workers , who was in the work before William Irvine? What were some or any of the names. I have one exworker friend telling me he knows the name of someone professing, who William Irvine got the truth from, who had a meeting in his home, and their daughter went into the work, but the parents did not want their name advertised as they did not want to take any glory from the truth . I called bs on him and he gets quite noisy about it , and I thought if you could help him out with a name, it would support his case. thanks. Alvin This is what happens in the absence of actual information. Evidence just "evolves" to support the myth. Because this is a universal human propensity, how much of the Bible itself just evolved to support mythology, I wonder.
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Post by What Hat on Dec 24, 2014 11:14:43 GMT -5
I've gotten dunes for donations from 2 of the places that prepare holiday meals for anyone who wants to walk in off the street. They used to keep it only for the homeless but now anyone and this burns me up.....people who have the money end up there to eat to "save" money! Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
I think you're kidding there, dmmichgood, but to add to that: we really don't want to ghetto-ize the homeless. Definitely, give a meal to anyone who comes. There aren't that many non-homeless who come, and they are needed. In our area there are also people in the downtown core who are on limited pension or disability who come out for a Christmas meal. Mrs. What and I will again (second time) be helping out for a few hours tomorrow at one of the local kitchens so the regular staff can have a Christmas break. Believe me, it's a very joyful thing to do on Christmas Day, so we are looking forward to it. We also have a volunteer run restaurant/ kitchen in our downtown core where you can get a decent meal for $3-4. They cater to the poor and homeless, but they want ordinary business people and shoppers to eat there too. Can you see why?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 24, 2014 13:38:49 GMT -5
I guess, at the very least, we can appreciate they didn't fabricate a name, that did not exist, but of course, HONESTY always is the best and there has been lots and lots of speculation etc, and has led to dishonesty and pretence. Sad , really, because there was nothing so terribly bad with the history etc. that was to be ashamed of. Like you said, the bible is full of stories that don't always make things look good, and some downright shameful ones, but honesty gains far more credibility than some vague coverup bologna story , that makes everything else that person says or write questionable. I wonder if it is too late for the church to come clean. I think there would be some fallout, but surely , the least we could expect from the truth is the truth? hmmmmm oxymoron or what is the right word I'm looking for ? Alvin Alvin, you are right on the button. I know when I discovered the "founding" truth about the 2x2s it actually caused me to even doubt anything my family elders' in everything they'd tried to tell me and correct me in....It actually shook my family roots very badly! Still doesn't feel completely right! But I have to understand my guardians were just as fooled as I was and maybe worse so because they professed back in the early1900's! Thus bringing some coal that will be heaped upon someones' heads for perpetuating the lie that actually served to garner new converts. I know if my Gram had known what I know now, she'd never touched the 2x2s with a 10 ft. pole and likely would not have invited those sister workers to come and live in her home that summer while they had gospel mtgs. I suspect she'd make sure that they had food, but she wouldn't want them in her home with her children! You know we're supposed to forgive and there are some things one really has a hard time forgiving....and this is one for me, and I think that is because I look back and realize there were 3-4 generations of my maternal family fooled with the perpetual lie besides my poor mother begging one sister worker how she would know whether she had a chance at being saved...this being only days before she died. worker just says "Pray. Pray." I think mom already had that down pat! But IF the worker would have been a true believer of Jesus Christ she would have simply asked Mom if she believed in Jesus Christ and Mom would have said yes and then the worker could have said John 3:16....but no we got to go into this external appearance of being saved, etc for years even! HOnesty sometimes can be painful, but then it isn't as painful from the start as it is when one finds it out way down the road when there is so much that been spun around it, etc!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 24, 2014 13:43:21 GMT -5
I've gotten dunes for donations from 2 of the places that prepare holiday meals for anyone who wants to walk in off the street. They used to keep it only for the homeless but now anyone and this burns me up.....people who have the money end up there to eat to "save" money! Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
Somebody wrote to me theother day about similar situation in large California cities....holiday time, people just cooling the old cookstove and go to the local rescue mission or salvation army and have a grand ole feast! To be fair, some do take large turkeys or hams down there or donate to them or say they do anyhow! But then if they go down there and scarf up that which they've donated, have they really donated? If I were allowed to be a door keeper, I probably would end up being a bouncer...strange that a rescue mission having a bouncer, eh?
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Post by What Hat on Dec 24, 2014 13:47:42 GMT -5
Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
Somebody wrote to me theother day about similar situation in large California cities....holiday time, people just cooling the old cookstove and go to the local rescue mission or salvation army and have a grand ole feast! To be fair, some do take large turkeys or hams down there or donate to them or say they do anyhow! But then if they go down there and scarf up that which they've donated, have they really donated? If I were allowed to be a door keeper, I probably would end up being a bouncer...strange that a rescue mission having a bouncer, eh? I won't repeat my post above, but most of the cooks and servers will eat a meal there as well. We're on clean-up so will miss out.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 24, 2014 13:57:10 GMT -5
Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
Somebody wrote to me theother day about similar situation in large California cities....holiday time, people just cooling the old cookstove and go to the local rescue mission or salvation army and have a grand ole feast! To be fair, some do take large turkeys or hams down there or donate to them or say they do anyhow! But then if they go down there and scarf up that which they've donated, have they really donated? If I were allowed to be a door keeper, I probably would end up being a bouncer...strange that a rescue mission having a bouncer, eh? Some how that seems a hard for me to believe. If they have a home & stove to purposely go & have to wait in line for food although I am sure is adequate is not like one can make at home.
Maybe the story is in the line of an urban legend or like the derogatory stories people tell themselves in order to justify they actions.
My post about being a "gate keeper" was more about thinking one can judge other people as to who to let in & who turn away.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 24, 2014 21:39:21 GMT -5
Somebody wrote to me theother day about similar situation in large California cities....holiday time, people just cooling the old cookstove and go to the local rescue mission or salvation army and have a grand ole feast! To be fair, some do take large turkeys or hams down there or donate to them or say they do anyhow! But then if they go down there and scarf up that which they've donated, have they really donated? If I were allowed to be a door keeper, I probably would end up being a bouncer...strange that a rescue mission having a bouncer, eh? Some how that seems a hard for me to believe. If they have a home & stove to purposely go & have to wait in line for food although I am sure is adequate is not like one can make at home.
Maybe the story is in the line of an urban legend or like the derogatory stories people tell themselves in order to justify they actions.
My post about being a "gate keeper" was more about thinking one can judge other people as to who to let in & who turn away.
Having been raised in this metropolis, I kind of know who is whom now days...though not always good with their names. Plus after working some years at the local medical charity clinic, I sure enough learned who the poor folks are and it's amazing our homeless folks generally stay the same with an occasional change in the wintertine when some of our summer folks take off for warmer climates........and as one said, more fleas! Also, inevitably the pictures that the local newspaper put into the newspaper throughout the next few days following such a holiday there will be enough of those more favored and blessed folks sitting down there eating away. Used to about 20 yrs. ago, the folks who had fairly decent jobs DID just go down to cook and/or serve...but no more. I've noticed the servers are usually a group of high school boys and girls who signed up for the duty through a particular course study at the local high schools! Something like Socio-economics or some such classes! It's the median financed folks that take the expensive meats and veggies down for a donation there and often are asked if they'd come back and cook it and most time we agree...they do try to make it to where the cooks are not there more then 3 hrs. and preferably just 2 hrs. Otherwords according to whatever time it is, that will determine what the new shift will be fixing and cooking and may not get it completely off the stove...but then that's okay also. Occasionally we've had to work a 5-6 hr shift due to a spell of intestinal flues and bad colds amongst those who have kids at home! There are very few upper crust folks that come down to work any more! Or at least at that place! Of course we have several different areas...even some of the churches pitch in and their church cook and serve, but usually the day before the holiday!
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 25, 2014 0:10:58 GMT -5
Maybe they should ask people as they come in at the gate for an address & if they give them an address they will know they aren't homeless & can tell them to go home & fix their own dinner? Would you help out & be the gate keeper?
I think you're kidding there, dmmichgood, but to add to that: we really don't want to ghetto-ize the homeless. Definitely, give a meal to anyone who comes. There aren't that many non-homeless who come, and they are needed. In our area there are also people in the downtown core who are on limited pension or disability who come out for a Christmas meal. Mrs. What and I will again (second time) be helping out for a few hours tomorrow at one of the local kitchens so the regular staff can have a Christmas break. Believe me, it's a very joyful thing to do on Christmas Day, so we are looking forward to it. We also have a volunteer run restaurant/ kitchen in our downtown core where you can get a decent meal for $3-4. They cater to the poor and homeless, but they want ordinary business people and shoppers to eat there too. Can you see why? Yes, I was "kidding." More like being sarcastic.
It was meant as sarcasm.
As in who is so good that they able to stand at the gate & judge who is worthy to eat at the table of the very sustenance that helps maintain life itself?
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Post by What Hat on Dec 25, 2014 7:30:47 GMT -5
Some how that seems a hard for me to believe. If they have a home & stove to purposely go & have to wait in line for food although I am sure is adequate is not like one can make at home.
Maybe the story is in the line of an urban legend or like the derogatory stories people tell themselves in order to justify they actions.
My post about being a "gate keeper" was more about thinking one can judge other people as to who to let in & who turn away.
Having been raised in this metropolis, I kind of know who is whom now days...though not always good with their names. Plus after working some years at the local medical charity clinic, I sure enough learned who the poor folks are and it's amazing our homeless folks generally stay the same with an occasional change in the wintertine when some of our summer folks take off for warmer climates........and as one said, more fleas! Also, inevitably the pictures that the local newspaper put into the newspaper throughout the next few days following such a holiday there will be enough of those more favored and blessed folks sitting down there eating away. Used to about 20 yrs. ago, the folks who had fairly decent jobs DID just go down to cook and/or serve...but no more. I've noticed the servers are usually a group of high school boys and girls who signed up for the duty through a particular course study at the local high schools! Something like Socio-economics or some such classes! It's the median financed folks that take the expensive meats and veggies down for a donation there and often are asked if they'd come back and cook it and most time we agree...they do try to make it to where the cooks are not there more then 3 hrs. and preferably just 2 hrs. Otherwords according to whatever time it is, that will determine what the new shift will be fixing and cooking and may not get it completely off the stove...but then that's okay also. Occasionally we've had to work a 5-6 hr shift due to a spell of intestinal flues and bad colds amongst those who have kids at home! There are very few upper crust folks that come down to work any more! Or at least at that place! Of course we have several different areas...even some of the churches pitch in and their church cook and serve, but usually the day before the holiday! Ours will be completely catered by volunteers, as I said, so the staff can take the day off. I think about 300 complete turkey dinners will be served. No shortage of volunteers; I wonder if your group is getting the word out to encourage more volunteers? Please reconsider your concerns about "free loaders". The policy here is to encourage mingling of the needy and more privileged folks as much as possible.
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Post by slowtosee on Dec 25, 2014 10:43:05 GMT -5
The charitable gift of dignity to one another. while "trading " stuff with others is a tricky one. Is it even "giving," when I expect something in return? Isn't that "trading "? Talking out loud, no answer required. Alvin
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 25, 2014 11:23:32 GMT -5
Having been raised in this metropolis, I kind of know who is whom now days...though not always good with their names. Plus after working some years at the local medical charity clinic, I sure enough learned who the poor folks are and it's amazing our homeless folks generally stay the same with an occasional change in the wintertine when some of our summer folks take off for warmer climates........and as one said, more fleas! Also, inevitably the pictures that the local newspaper put into the newspaper throughout the next few days following such a holiday there will be enough of those more favored and blessed folks sitting down there eating away. Used to about 20 yrs. ago, the folks who had fairly decent jobs DID just go down to cook and/or serve...but no more. I've noticed the servers are usually a group of high school boys and girls who signed up for the duty through a particular course study at the local high schools! Something like Socio-economics or some such classes! It's the median financed folks that take the expensive meats and veggies down for a donation there and often are asked if they'd come back and cook it and most time we agree...they do try to make it to where the cooks are not there more then 3 hrs. and preferably just 2 hrs. Otherwords according to whatever time it is, that will determine what the new shift will be fixing and cooking and may not get it completely off the stove...but then that's okay also. Occasionally we've had to work a 5-6 hr shift due to a spell of intestinal flues and bad colds amongst those who have kids at home! There are very few upper crust folks that come down to work any more! Or at least at that place! Of course we have several different areas...even some of the churches pitch in and their church cook and serve, but usually the day before the holiday! Ours will be completely catered by volunteers, as I said, so the staff can take the day off. I think about 300 complete turkey dinners will be served. No shortage of volunteers; I wonder if your group is getting the word out to encourage more volunteers? Please reconsider your concerns about "free loaders". The policy here is to encourage mingling of the needy and more privileged folks as much as possible. Don't be imagining the "word" doesn't get, out! We're bombarded nearly year long for donations for all of the rescue and charity places......it's just that the quality of "richer" folks left after an exodus of many of the better "richer" are such that came out of not having a house to even throw the pot out of the window, but have managed by letting other people cater to them inspite of their working and living from check to check.....food costs in this metropolis are one of the primary extreme costs in general. One rescue mission has a country acreage in another county where they take many of the homeless men during the growing seasons to till the soil and curry the cattle, etc, so their need shouldn't be that great, but due to having to hand out to the nouveau rich they do need help from the average wage earners in this area! Another, of course, is the Salvation Army, who sets the collection right in the doorways of busy businesses all over and takes in collectively a large amount of money though admittedly each business set may only garner them less then $25 for an 8 hr. of ringing the bell! We also have a United Way that is all donation driven and does share moneys with all of the different charitable places and businesses....... I think what has happened is the nouveau rich seem to feel that it is all their due! Perhaps they have been down to the bottom also, but one would think if that were the case they'd be more understanding to "serve" now would be better then just sitting down and taking it all to themselves.......and I'm not the one who really is complaining, it is a hard row to handle for some of the managers of the charitable places. Even the churches get fed up with people that can afford whatever foodstuffs they need, that drop by and want a sack or two of their charity grocery bags! One church has it though now, IF you want charity grocery, you will sit through one church service that day before you are given your groceries...this has helped eliminate quite a few of their freeloaders since those who don't really need those groceries have NO desire to sit through the church's Sun. service!
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 5, 2015 14:07:19 GMT -5
In just over eighteen months since my book, Two by Two the Shape of a Shapeless Movement first appeared. With an initial print run of 1500 I am down to under 200 left. Many have been taken up in Ireland but a considerable number to the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 5, 2015 14:15:31 GMT -5
Is there any way to tell who, if any, of the friends and workers purchased the book, Irvine?
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 5, 2015 14:26:42 GMT -5
I have recognised several names of those who purchased from my website, www.irvinegrey.com and know that they are workers, ex-workers, friends and exes. Then many of those who bought the book in various parts of the world have corresponded with me and many of these are in the movement. However, the correspondents and the names of those who have bought my book will remain totally confidential. Purchasing directly from my website represents the best price including post and packing. Perhaps one disappointment to me is that no workers at a senior level have been prepared to engage in any correspondence or discussion on the book. One day in a coffee shop in Northern Ireland I met a very senior worker and his young companion. Since we had met at a convention he knew me and we talked for a few minutes. I asked had he read the book to which he replied that he had leafed through it. I suggested that we meet and talk over a coffee any areas of the book that with which he disagreed but he declined my offer. However, I did leave him my card with contact details but so far nothing. www.irvinegrey.com
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 8, 2015 17:24:13 GMT -5
New Year new orders. One major institution placed an order today for 40 books. Lets hope that it is not a cover for the two by two movement planning a book burning
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jan 10, 2015 12:21:21 GMT -5
Perhaps one disappointment to me is that no workers at a senior level have been prepared to engage in any correspondence or discussion on the book. One day in a coffee shop in Northern Ireland I met a very senior worker and his young companion. Since we had met at a convention he knew me and we talked for a few minutes. I asked had he read the book to which he replied that he had leafed through it. I suggested that we meet and talk over a coffee any areas of the book that with which he disagreed but he declined my offer. However, I did leave him my card with contact details but so far nothing. Reminds me of this conversation from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead;
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jan 10, 2015 12:55:21 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jan 10, 2015 13:35:03 GMT -5
Perhaps one disappointment to me is that no workers at a senior level have been prepared to engage in any correspondence or discussion on the book. One day in a coffee shop in Northern Ireland I met a very senior worker and his young companion. Since we had met at a convention he knew me and we talked for a few minutes. I asked had he read the book to which he replied that he had leafed through it. I suggested that we meet and talk over a coffee any areas of the book that with which he disagreed but he declined my offer. However, I did leave him my card with contact details but so far nothing. You were shown hospitality and kindness at convention and various discussions with workers and friends. Your response was to publish a book condemning the fellowship as "a particularly dangerous cult". Even after that a very senior worker and his young companion met you in a coffee shop. And you think there's anything more to talk about?
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Post by snow on Jan 10, 2015 13:44:29 GMT -5
New Year new orders. One major institution placed an order today for 40 books. Lets hope that it is not a cover for the two by two movement planning a book burning That's a tad paranoid don't you think? Even if the purchase was to burn your book, is that something you believe is terribe and is not the right of the purchaser? You are getting paid, does it matter in the end what happens to the book? Your comment does however, give me insight into what you think of the 2x2 group.
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 10, 2015 15:11:09 GMT -5
New Year new orders. One major institution placed an order today for 40 books. Lets hope that it is not a cover for the two by two movement planning a book burning That's a tad paranoid don't you think? Even if the purchase was to burn your book, is that something you believe is terribe and is not the right of the purchaser? You are getting paid, does it matter in the end what happens to the book? Your comment does however, give me insight into what you think of the 2x2 group. Would you ever lighten up - I meant it as a joke!
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Post by irvinegrey on Jan 10, 2015 15:16:01 GMT -5
Perhaps one disappointment to me is that no workers at a senior level have been prepared to engage in any correspondence or discussion on the book. One day in a coffee shop in Northern Ireland I met a very senior worker and his young companion. Since we had met at a convention he knew me and we talked for a few minutes. I asked had he read the book to which he replied that he had leafed through it. I suggested that we meet and talk over a coffee any areas of the book that with which he disagreed but he declined my offer. However, I did leave him my card with contact details but so far nothing. You were shown hospitality and kindness at convention and various discussions with workers and friends. Your response was to publish a book condemning the fellowship as "a particularly dangerous cult". Even after that a very senior worker and his young companion met you in a coffee shop. And you think there's anything more to talk about? Of course there is plenty to talk about. For example if they disagree with my conclusion then it would be good to hear the reasons. As to meeting in the coffee shop we did not arrange to meet or have coffee together. We simply spoke briefly. Because a researcher meets friends and workers in the course of the research, why should this prevent a conclusion that does not meet there approval?
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Post by snow on Jan 10, 2015 15:25:48 GMT -5
That's a tad paranoid don't you think? Even if the purchase was to burn your book, is that something you believe is terribe and is not the right of the purchaser? You are getting paid, does it matter in the end what happens to the book? Your comment does however, give me insight into what you think of the 2x2 group. Would you ever lighten up - I meant it as a joke! Good.
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