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Post by snow on Sept 30, 2013 21:09:52 GMT -5
No, our consciousness, what we dwell on, is the cause of most of our suffering. So self-loathing and self-rejection lies inside of the parameters of our free-will. Would that be a true statement? I respectfully disagree that we need to hate anything to passionately reject it. It simply ceases to be a part of our belief structure. That hardly explains why we spend so much time contending and exploring the good, the true, and the beautiful here on the TMB. Refining beliefs is a passion! As far as free will goes, there is always cause and effect. However, that isn't some God judging and punishing us. Then you don't believe in a sovereign creator but an unintelligent or maybe even a necrotic hypostatis to all things. Doesn't that let the wind out of your sails just a little? We experience free will when we realize that the choices we make will have consequences. So you agree we don't have freewill then. Then we can freely choose the consequences we wish to experience. Or how we will react when things don't turn out like we plan. "Our hearts are restless until they rest in You". St Augustine Yes, I would say that it is always our choice how we react to things. How we react defines our experience to a degree. We do spend a lot of time here defining and redefining our beliefs. Sometimes quite passionately. I think it is a human trait to explore the boundaries of our understanding of things. We like to ask 'why' and then go on to try and answer it to the best of our knowledge. It seems to be an uncomfortable place for humans to be 'to not know'. So we attempt to comfort ourselves with answers that are sometimes wrong, but work for us. No I don't believe in a sovereign creator. I don't think what we do see is unintelligent though. That part of my understanding is still in the 'evolving' stage. Haven't decided what I think about where this universe and the life we see on it, comes from. I just don't think it can be defined the way the Judaic/Christian God is defined. No, I do think we have free will. Maybe not all the things that occur in our experiences, but definitely in how we respond to our experiences. That is always a choice imo. For example, I experience high levels of physical pain. I am told there is no way to change that. So my choice is how I respond to the experience of being in pain. What I choose can make the experience a 'suffering' experience or it can become a 'challenging' experience. By challenging I mean I can choose to still get out there and do what I can, be happy for what I DO have etc. My attitude definitely defines my experience.
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Post by Lee on Sept 30, 2013 22:30:37 GMT -5
"Our hearts are restless until they rest in You". St Augustine Yes, I would say that it is always our choice how we react to things. How we react defines our experience to a degree. We do spend a lot of time here defining and redefining our beliefs. Sometimes quite passionately. I think it is a human trait to explore the boundaries of our understanding of things. We like to ask 'why' and then go on to try and answer it to the best of our knowledge. It seems to be an uncomfortable place for humans to be 'to not know'. So we attempt to comfort ourselves with answers that are sometimes wrong, but work for us. You really DONT believe our beliefs make us better in any way, do you? No, I do think we have free will. Maybe not all the things that occur in our experiences, but definitely in how we respond to our experiences. That is always a choice imo. For example, I experience high levels of physical pain. I am told there is no way to change that. So my choice is how I respond to the experience of being in pain. What I choose can make the experience a 'suffering' experience or it can become a 'challenging' experience. By challenging I mean I can choose to still get out there and do what I can, be happy for what I DO have etc. My attitude definitely defines my experience. That's great. I don't distinguish well between physical and psychic pain and the one aggravates the other.
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Post by snow on Sept 30, 2013 23:20:28 GMT -5
Yes, I would say that it is always our choice how we react to things. How we react defines our experience to a degree. We do spend a lot of time here defining and redefining our beliefs. Sometimes quite passionately. I think it is a human trait to explore the boundaries of our understanding of things. We like to ask 'why' and then go on to try and answer it to the best of our knowledge. It seems to be an uncomfortable place for humans to be 'to not know'. So we attempt to comfort ourselves with answers that are sometimes wrong, but work for us. You really DONT believe our beliefs make us better in any way, do you? No, I do think we have free will. Maybe not all the things that occur in our experiences, but definitely in how we respond to our experiences. That is always a choice imo. For example, I experience high levels of physical pain. I am told there is no way to change that. So my choice is how I respond to the experience of being in pain. What I choose can make the experience a 'suffering' experience or it can become a 'challenging' experience. By challenging I mean I can choose to still get out there and do what I can, be happy for what I DO have etc. My attitude definitely defines my experience. That's great. I don't distinguish well between physical and psychic pain and the one aggravates the other. I guess you'd have to define 'better'.
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Post by Lee on Sept 30, 2013 23:44:13 GMT -5
You really DONT believe our beliefs make us better in any way, do you? I guess you'd have to define 'better'. Uh... smarter ... more responsible ... more resourceful .. .. . more respectful . .. more egalitarian, in the sense of honoring all people. Literally some think that mean Obamacare, I think it means living minimum wages. A pipe dream in contrast with this world's economic paradigm, huh?
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Post by snow on Oct 1, 2013 11:02:38 GMT -5
I guess you'd have to define 'better'. Uh... smarter ... more responsible ... more resourceful .. .. . more respectful . .. more egalitarian, in the sense of honoring all people. Literally some think that mean Obamacare, I think it means living minimum wages. A pipe dream in contrast with this world's economic paradigm, huh? Well my take on things is this. What we believe will always be reflected in our behavior. How can it not be. If we believe in the dignity of all people, we will treat them with respect and try to make things in the world work for everyone. I get labelled an idealist, but I think it how we view the people around us. If we feel that they are separate from us and we have no responsibility for them, we will ignore their plight. We try to take care of family, now lets just expand our definition of 'family'. I know, I'm a dreamer like DMG says...
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 14, 2013 0:34:16 GMT -5
Today seven years ago started as a very normal Monday morning except that I had to get the results of a biopsy carried out a few weeks earlier and the result still resonates with me, ‘you have an aggressive malignant tumour’. How I thank God for a wonderful family and friends whose love, prayers and support was appreciated more than they will ever know. Please do not think from that there were no down times, of course there were times of tears and despair but from the very beginning I took the words of Habakkuk as my foundation: ‘ Though the fig tree should not blossom, nor fruit be on the vines, the produce of the olive fail and the fields yield no food, the flock be cut off from the fold and there be no herd in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the LORD; I will take joy in the God of my salvation, God, the LORD is my strength. 3:17-19. Is it any wonder that every time I sing ‘My heart is filled with thankfulness’ that it is with deep gratitude to God for His love for giving me more time not only to enjoy my family and grandchildren but also open doors for me to share the transforming Gospel of Jesus Christ. My heart is filled with thankfulness To Him who bore my pain; Who plumbed the depths of my disgrace And gave me life again. Who crushed my curse of sinfulness, And clothed me with His light, And wrote His law of righteousness With power upon my heart. My heart is filled with thankfulness To Him who walks beside; Who floods my weaknesses with strength And causes fears to fly; Whose every promise is enough For every step I take, Sustaining me with arms of love And crowning me with grace. My heart is filled with thankfulness To Him who reigns above; Whose wisdom is my perfect peace, Whose every thought is love. For every day I have on earth is given by the King; So I will give my life, my all, To love and follow Him. www.youtube.com/watch?v=5V9ypGcMt3MLet us all give thanks to God for His mercy and grace and to Him alone be the glory.
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Post by Mary on Oct 14, 2013 3:36:04 GMT -5
How is the tumour now?
With you I say, let us give thanks to God for His mercy and grace and to Him alone be the glory.
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 16, 2013 4:54:31 GMT -5
Because there was some spread from the initial site the tumour was treated with drugs (which I am still on) and 37 sessions of radiotherapy and everything seems under control. I have regular visits to see consultants who keep a close eye on me. I remained asymptomatic throughout and thank God for enabling me to continue my work of Bible teaching in Kilifi, Kenya and I am off there again at the end of this month. We can surely say that His mercies are new every morning
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 14:22:27 GMT -5
Because there was some spread from the initial site the tumour was treated with drugs (which I am still on) and 37 sessions of radiotherapy and everything seems under control. I have regular visits to see consultants who keep a close eye on me. I remained asymptomatic throughout and thank God for enabling me to continue my work of Bible teaching in Kilifi, Kenya and I am off there again at the end of this month. We can surely say that His mercies are new every morning Many thanks for sharing Irvine. As we say ower here....."yer a Keen yin!"
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 16, 2013 18:24:54 GMT -5
Because there was some spread from the initial site the tumour was treated with drugs (which I am still on) and 37 sessions of radiotherapy and everything seems under control. I have regular visits to see consultants who keep a close eye on me. I remained asymptomatic throughout and thank God for enabling me to continue my work of Bible teaching in Kilifi, Kenya and I am off there again at the end of this month. We can surely say that His mercies are new every morning You remain asymptomatic due to what? Being treated with drugs and radiotherapy.
Where did these come from? Wasn't it the advancement of scientific inquiry and development?
Why aren't you thanking science for the help that you got instead of thanking a god?
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 17, 2013 3:45:52 GMT -5
Because there was some spread from the initial site the tumour was treated with drugs (which I am still on) and 37 sessions of radiotherapy and everything seems under control. I have regular visits to see consultants who keep a close eye on me. I remained asymptomatic throughout and thank God for enabling me to continue my work of Bible teaching in Kilifi, Kenya and I am off there again at the end of this month. We can surely say that His mercies are new every morning You remain asymptomatic due to what? Being treated with drugs and radiotherapy.
Where did these come from? Wasn't it the advancement of scientific inquiry and development?
Why aren't you thanking science for the help that you got instead of thanking a god?
That is exactly why I thank God. If God did not grant common grace to everyone then I am afraid science could not develop all of their wonderful cures. So when I thank God I am thanking science!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2013 11:59:28 GMT -5
You remain asymptomatic due to what? Being treated with drugs and radiotherapy.
Where did these come from? Wasn't it the advancement of scientific inquiry and development?
Why aren't you thanking science for the help that you got instead of thanking a god?
That is exactly why I thank God. If God did not grant common grace to everyone then I am afraid science could not develop all of their wonderful cures. So when I thank God I am thanking science! That is interesting.
So, where was "god" before science developed those wonderful cures?
Where was "god" when TB killed many people, the plague decimated the population in Europe; infections, that are now easily cured- were rampart?
Where was "god's" "common grace to everyone" then?
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 17, 2013 12:57:26 GMT -5
That is exactly why I thank God. If God did not grant common grace to everyone then I am afraid science could not develop all of their wonderful cures. So when I thank God I am thanking science! That is interesting.
So, where was "god" before science developed those wonderful cures?
Where was "god" when TB killed many people, the plague decimated the population in Europe; infections, that are now easily cured- were rampart?
Where was "god's" "common grace to everyone" then?
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV)
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Post by snow on Oct 17, 2013 14:07:05 GMT -5
That is interesting.
So, where was "god" before science developed those wonderful cures?
Where was "god" when TB killed many people, the plague decimated the population in Europe; infections, that are now easily cured- were rampart?
Where was "god's" "common grace to everyone" then?
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV) You make god sound like a slave driver!
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Post by fixit on Oct 17, 2013 16:31:55 GMT -5
The following scripture comes to mind as I consider the religious confusion that IG is promoting:
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
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Post by irvinegrey on Oct 17, 2013 16:46:24 GMT -5
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV) You make god sound like a slave driver! But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.(Romans 3:21-26 ESV) Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the love of God? Go to the cross. Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the justice of God? Go to the cross. It is where wrath and mercy meet. Holiness and peace kiss each other. The climax of redemptive history is the cross. Because it is this God who is offended by our sin and stands over against us in judgment, and it is this God who loves us anyway, this sort of passage deals most powerfully and potently with the problem and provides the remedy. God in the fullness of time sent forth his own Son. In this one climactic sacrifice; God takes action both to punish sin and to forgive sinners. In any final sense, the sins had remained unpunished; now they are punished in the very person of the Son. And God is now both just and the one who justifies the ungodly. This is received by faith.
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Post by Gene on Oct 17, 2013 17:37:19 GMT -5
That is interesting.
So, where was "god" before science developed those wonderful cures?
Where was "god" when TB killed many people, the plague decimated the population in Europe; infections, that are now easily cured- were rampart?
Where was "god's" "common grace to everyone" then?
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV) In other words, DMMichGood, don't ask such questions, because you will come to regret it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2013 18:40:31 GMT -5
That is interesting.
So, where was "god" before science developed those wonderful cures?
Where was "god" when TB killed many people, the plague decimated the population in Europe; infections, that are now easily cured- were rampart?
Where was "god's" "common grace to everyone" then?
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV) Thank you for your gentle correction on the word "rampant."
I'm just going to blame that error on my spell checker!
As to the rest of your post, in order to believe what you stated you have to believe in a god who is so jealous, angry, and vicious; that he will torture anyone who doesn't kowtow to him!
That is why I quit believing in any god a long time ago.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2013 18:56:29 GMT -5
You make god sound like a slave driver! But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.(Romans 3:21-26 ESV) Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the love of God? Go to the cross. Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the justice of God? Go to the cross. It is where wrath and mercy meet. Holiness and peace kiss each other. The climax of redemptive history is the cross. Because it is this God who is offended by our sin and stands over against us in judgment, and it is this God who loves us anyway, this sort of passage deals most powerfully and potently with the problem and provides the remedy. God in the fullness of time sent forth his own Son. In this one climactic sacrifice; God takes action both to punish sin and to forgive sinners. In any final sense, the sins had remained unpunished; now they are punished in the very person of the Son. And God is now both just and the one who justifies the ungodly. This is received by faith. Indeed it surely must take a lot of faith! It doesn't make any sense! It certainly isn't reasonable!
Any god who is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing and always-present; who was so incompetent when he created a humankind that he created them so imperfect that they were prone to "sin" and then he had to have a "blood" sacrifice to "redeem" them, even if it required his own son; - well, he doesn't sound like much of a god to me!
No wonder it takes a lot of "faith" to believe in such a god!
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 17, 2013 19:01:21 GMT -5
I am sure you meant rampant! You can denigrate God all you want but please be assured that God is not mocked - one day we will all - at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11 ESV) In other words, DMMichGood, don't ask such questions, because you will come to regret it. Oh yes, how the answers do twist one's mind into such knots that you if you want to keep your sanity you rue the day that you asked!
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Post by fixit on Oct 17, 2013 20:28:18 GMT -5
God in the fullness of time sent forth his own Son. God sent forth his own Son? That's 2x2 doctrine, which you labelled a "particularly dangerous cult". Was Mary the mother of God or the mother of God's son?
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Post by snow on Oct 17, 2013 21:35:03 GMT -5
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.(Romans 3:21-26 ESV) Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the love of God? Go to the cross. Do you want to see the greatest evidence of the justice of God? Go to the cross. It is where wrath and mercy meet. Holiness and peace kiss each other. The climax of redemptive history is the cross. Because it is this God who is offended by our sin and stands over against us in judgment, and it is this God who loves us anyway, this sort of passage deals most powerfully and potently with the problem and provides the remedy. God in the fullness of time sent forth his own Son. In this one climactic sacrifice; God takes action both to punish sin and to forgive sinners. In any final sense, the sins had remained unpunished; now they are punished in the very person of the Son. And God is now both just and the one who justifies the ungodly. This is received by faith. Indeed it surely must take a lot of faith! It doesn't make any sense! It certainly isn't reasonable!
Any god who is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing and always-present; who was so incompetent when he created a humankind that he created them so imperfect that they were prone to "sin" and then he had to have a "blood" sacrifice to "redeem" them, even if it required his own son; - well, he doesn't sound like not much of a god to me!
No wonder it takes a lot of "faith" to believe in such a god!
Thank you dmg. That's how I see it too. I have never understood how God could have made us so imperfect that he had to have a blood sacrifice to forgive us. Why couldn't he just forgive us since it was him that made us imperfect to start with? Why go to all the drama of crucifying his son for our sins when it would be very simple to just say, "I forgive you".
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Post by irvinegrey on Nov 20, 2014 17:08:10 GMT -5
Indeed it surely must take a lot of faith! It doesn't make any sense! It certainly isn't reasonable!
Any god who is supposed to be all-powerful, all-knowing and always-present; who was so incompetent when he created a humankind that he created them so imperfect that they were prone to "sin" and then he had to have a "blood" sacrifice to "redeem" them, even if it required his own son; - well, he doesn't sound like not much of a god to me!
No wonder it takes a lot of "faith" to believe in such a god!
Thank you dmg. That's how I see it too. I have never understood how God could have made us so imperfect that he had to have a blood sacrifice to forgive us. Why couldn't he just forgive us since it was him that made us imperfect to start with? Why go to all the drama of crucifying his son for our sins when it would be very simple to just say, "I forgive you". A simple study of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement that permeates Scripture will reveal that a Holy God could not turn a blind eye to our sin but in the plan of salvation and in His mercy sent His Son to be our substitute. Redeemed sinners are humbled as they read and meditate 6] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:16-18 ESV) and: [17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV) We may be unworthy of God's mercy and grace but He did send His Son to stand in our place and that drives us to bow our heads in awe and reverence and say, 'hallelujah what a Saviour.'
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2014 18:08:29 GMT -5
Thank you dmg. That's how I see it too. I have never understood how God could have made us so imperfect that he had to have a blood sacrifice to forgive us. Why couldn't he just forgive us since it was him that made us imperfect to start with? Why go to all the drama of crucifying his son for our sins when it would be very simple to just say, "I forgive you". A simple study of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement that permeates Scripture will reveal that a Holy God could not turn a blind eye to our sin but in the plan of salvation and in His mercy sent His Son to be our substitute. Redeemed sinners are humbled as they read and meditate 6] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (John 3:16-18 ESV) and: [17] Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. [18] All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; [19] that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. [20] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17-21 ESV) We may be unworthy of God's mercy and grace but He did send His Son to stand in our place and that drives us to bow our heads in awe and reverence and say, 'hallelujah what a Saviour.' If people really thought about this I think they would question why a God would need to do a blood sacrifice of his son to save his creation from his judgement. However, if you understand just how much this is a pagan ritual, then you would know that it's symbolic, not historical.
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