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Vietnam
May 26, 2013 22:56:50 GMT -5
Post by breakingfree on May 26, 2013 22:56:50 GMT -5
A couple of years ago I asked Mark Huddle to his face if Jesus is God. He didn't answer my question. He squirmed in his seat, said "One must be very careful about who they say Jesus is." There ya go. I think workers are wishy-washy about this. The identity of Jesus is of lessor importance than the meeting in the home and the ministry without a home. I want to ask you a related question: "Is Jesus man?" Hi Fixit, Yes, Jesus is human.
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Vietnam
May 26, 2013 23:27:40 GMT -5
Post by breakingfree on May 26, 2013 23:27:40 GMT -5
What should be a bigger concern for F&Ws though is the common characterization of Christ as "our elder brother". If F&Ws belive in the Son of God reigning into eternity, the term "elder brother" really makes him into "just a man" as many exes complain about, and making the workers equal with Christ....sort of as the First Overseer of the Workers. Workers really need to think about that one if they want to continue to be considered actual Christians. I wonder what the "Jesus was not a man" crowd do with the following scripture? Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Fixit, Regarding the scripture you are asking about above, one needs to understand the word from which "firstborn" is translated. PROTOTOKOS. We see it also in Colossians 1:15: "And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation" Scripture is clear that Jesus was a humble man and also the creator of all things. Many religions from the Arian's of the early church years to the Jehovah's Witnesses and most 2x2's today use "Jesus is firstborn" as proof-text to show that Jesus is a created being and not the eternal God. In both Greek and Jewish culture, the first-born was the son who had the right of inheritance. He was not necessarily the first one born. Although Esau was born first chronologically, it was Jacob who was the “first-born” and received the inheritance. Jesus is the One with the right to the inheritance of all creation (cf. Heb. 1:2; Rev. 5:1–7, 13). Israel was called God’s first-born in Exodus 4:22 and Jeremiah 31:9. Though not the first people born, they held first place in God’s sight among all the nations. In Psalm 89:27, God says of the Messiah, “I also shall make him My first-born,” then defines what He means—“the highest of the kings of the earth.” In Revelation 1:5, Jesus is called “the first-born of the dead,” even though He was not the first person to be resurrected chronologically. Of all ever raised, He is the preeminent One. Romans 8:29 refers to Him as the first-born in relation to the church. In all the above cases, first-born clearly means highest in rank, not first created. If Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created?”
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 3:57:18 GMT -5
Post by fred on May 27, 2013 3:57:18 GMT -5
This "crowd" that is often referred to....... I wonder if anyone knows someone who belongs to it?
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 4:08:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 4:08:02 GMT -5
No Cherie I have no idea of how many of the friends have been affected -- I know very little at all about the work in Vietnam --But regarding this complaint of workers not respecting high-council defined field boundaries, I would guess that this (as it was in the case of Marg Magowan) is only a simple-minded trumped up excuse to get rid of a worker who is uncomfortable for some other hidden political reason. I am hoping to find out what that issue could be as it likely will explain problems far more significant than the given explanations. I received a PM referring to a person that had lived in Vietnam many years, now in the US that might be acquainted with the situation. I am hoping this contact might shed some light. Edgar Ref: www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth2.htm
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 5:33:16 GMT -5
Post by Admin on May 27, 2013 5:33:16 GMT -5
I would like to help but you might put their lives in jeopardy! jailed and killed. Maybe later on, when the VN government will allow people to worship freely, then you can post these things on the Internet. So, please be very careful, Cherie. Please, don't post the Canadians or any workers over there and the friends in VN full names on TMB, Internet. You can put their lives in danger. Moderator/s or Adm. can you delete the workers and the friends names on this thread and use only their initials to protect their lives and families with children. Thanks! Cherie. Two of the Canadians workers names are posting on there. They could be in danger. You could post their initials. Please note Nate's request to the admin team re posting any names on this thread. Cherie has kindly deleted one of her posts and "cleaned up" the rest. If there are other names, or concerns re this thread, please let me know (I have only skimmed most of the thread). admin
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 5:58:15 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 27, 2013 5:58:15 GMT -5
Nathan is concerned for the lives of friends and workers named on this thread.
Yet the link in the OP still shows the address of the friends in HCM City?
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May 27, 2013 6:06:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 6:06:02 GMT -5
Dear administrator team I have noted the suggestions that I hide the personal identity aspects of this letter posted on our Webb site --
Regarding the workers involved, I have absolutely no interest in being an accomplice in the expressed concern of 2x2 supporters to conceal the illegal aspects of workers presence in Vietnam (and their names are not posted on this discussion board (by me at least))-- Regarding risk of being killed .. remember the US has killed far far more innocent people in Vietnam than the present regime and legal system. It is the workers presence there that is causing the problems at the moment, and as I understand it, a number of involved people feel that the county and Christian moral values would be a far better place without them
Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.
I and a number others always post using our real names so names are nothing new. If censure is to be enforced by the administative team I request this thread be removed in its entirety and I will accept a board ban if it decided that my posts are to controversial.
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 6:29:23 GMT -5
Post by Admin on May 27, 2013 6:29:23 GMT -5
Dear administrator team I have noted the suggestions that I hide the personal identity aspects of this letter posted on our Webb site -- Regarding the workers involved, I have absolutely no interest in being an accomplice in the expressed concern of 2x2 supporters to conceal the illegal aspects of workers presence in Vietnam (and their names are not posted on this discussion board (by me at least))-- Thanks Edgar, your posts are fine. admin
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 7:04:02 GMT -5
Tack så mycket!! (Thank you)
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards
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Post by sacerdotal on May 27, 2013 7:48:46 GMT -5
Tack så mycket!! (Thank you) Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using proboards Thank you, Edgar for being an advocate against the worst aspects of the Truth fellowship. Sent from my AT300 using proboards
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May 27, 2013 17:41:32 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 27, 2013 17:41:32 GMT -5
Does no one see the inconsistency here? Workers names have been taken off of the thread, yet the OP has a link to an address in Vietnam? NGUYEN HUU BAU MA THI NGHI 40/5981 Tran Queng Dieu str. Ward 14, District 3, HCMC, Vietnam And the phone numbers... I don't see any inconsistency. In many cases like this the workers are cowards who want to be heard and seen, but not be recorded in writing or in reality- because they like to work in the dark- so their deeds must be of the dark. Frankly, like Edgar, I am appalled if the workers names are not mentioned. It isn't a matter of libel or slander if what is being written is true. We have a family (bless them for having the courage to speak out against spiritual malfeasance) who are willing to have their story told. . . the workers involved are a part of the story.
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May 27, 2013 17:52:45 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 27, 2013 17:52:45 GMT -5
Perhaps in solidarity everyone who thinks disclosing another's address and phone number should disclose their own name, address, and phone number here.
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 17:57:26 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 27, 2013 17:57:26 GMT -5
Perhaps in solidarity everyone who thinks disclosing another's address and phone number should disclose their own name, address, and phone number here. The person who posted their name and address were the concerned party who evidently gave Edgar the permission to do so, and even desired such. That is a commendable, brave thing to do. Much unlike the workers who won't even put their email addresses on the worker's lists when that is a common practice everywhere else in the world. But then again, they are cowards afraid to account for their words or actions- for the most part- of course.
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May 27, 2013 18:08:43 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 27, 2013 18:08:43 GMT -5
Perhaps in solidarity everyone who thinks disclosing another's address and phone number should disclose their own name, address, and phone number here. The person who posted their name and address were the concerned party who evidently gave Edgar the permission to do so, and even desired such. That is a commendable, brave thing to do. Much unlike the workers who won't even put their email addresses on the worker's lists when that is a common practice everywhere else in the world. But then again, they are cowards afraid to account for their words or actions- for the most part- of course. What person? The person who had written a letter that was made into a jpg? Evidently? No evidence of that. Desired such? More stretch to the evidently.
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May 27, 2013 18:13:38 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 27, 2013 18:13:38 GMT -5
The person who posted their name and address were the concerned party who evidently gave Edgar the permission to do so, and even desired such. That is a commendable, brave thing to do. Much unlike the workers who won't even put their email addresses on the worker's lists when that is a common practice everywhere else in the world. But then again, they are cowards afraid to account for their words or actions- for the most part- of course. What person? The person who had written a letter that was made into a jpg? Evidently? No evidence of that. Desired such? More stretch to the evidently. Then Edgar's posts attesting to the fact that the couple wanted the letter to be distributed are just fabrications by him? I doubt very seriously that Edgar would fabricate or take lightly the posting of the letter.
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May 27, 2013 18:23:47 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 27, 2013 18:23:47 GMT -5
Would the following statement be correct then?
Its OK with TMB admin for the professing family in Vietnam to have name, address and phone number publicized...
...but its not OK to post workers names.
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 20:40:21 GMT -5
Post by emy on May 27, 2013 20:40:21 GMT -5
And for some posters here, it's not a problem if authorities round up a couple VN workers and throw them in jail - maybe to rot there? How about if the family whose address appears here is arrested - even for questioning? All because a few people have such utter disdain for the fellowship of friends and workers.
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May 27, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 27, 2013 21:25:14 GMT -5
I doubt that foreign workers would rot in a Vietnamese jail. I expect they'd simply be deported and told not to come back.
My greater concern is for the Vietnamese family whose address and phone number are linked to from the OP.
Even if you have permission to post it Edgar, I still think its unethical and uncaring for you to do so.
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May 27, 2013 21:39:03 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 27, 2013 21:39:03 GMT -5
What person? The person who had written a letter that was made into a jpg? Evidently? No evidence of that. Desired such? More stretch to the evidently. Then Edgar's posts attesting to the fact that the couple wanted the letter to be distributed are just fabrications by him? I doubt very seriously that Edgar would fabricate or take lightly the posting of the letter. There is no such fact nor attesting to such in what Edgar wrote. Yes, there is fabrication by Edgar. He merely expressed his "understanding". Perhaps is "understanding" is simply what he would want had he written the letter to another. Plus, even as he expressed, his main goal is to reveal or make known what appears to be bad practice(s) by some workers.
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May 27, 2013 21:43:14 GMT -5
Post by emy on May 27, 2013 21:43:14 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to the foreign workers. As I understand it, the "problem" was with a couple of native workers.
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May 27, 2013 22:11:45 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 27, 2013 22:11:45 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to the foreign workers. As I understand it, the "problem" was with a couple of native workers. No, the problem was with foreign workers coming in to try and enforce their traditions.
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Vietnam
May 27, 2013 22:27:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 22:27:23 GMT -5
I wasn't referring to the foreign workers. As I understand it, the "problem" was with a couple of native workers. No, the problem was with foreign workers coming in to try and enforce their traditions. Yes, SD, that appears to be the exact problem so far. The foreign tradition is that a country is carved up into territories and workers are given a territory with boundaries. No other worker is allowed to work across those boundaries without permission. These are foreign rules brought into Vietnam and enforced by foreign workers. Surely it should be easy for anyone to see that the problem is foreign rules, not the faithful native worker who is doing what he has always done, even when the foreigners weren't courageous enough to come into the country.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 22:43:35 GMT -5
There is a lot of drama here about the "dangers" faced by F&Ws from the State. Foreign workers in Vietnam are being considered brave heroes for working in such a dangerous environment. Their identities are being kept secret (even here on this site) for fear that the State of Vietnam will scoop them up and jail/kill them.
A closer examination of the religious environment in Vietnam reveals something quite different. Yes, there are a few religious leaders who find themselves behind bars, and there is one religious leader who has died behind bars and believed to have experienced torture contributing to his death (although none of this has been substantiated). The truth reveals a different environment than that presented by those of the paranoia crowd. When you examine those who have been jailed, you will find that everyone of them are religious people who have gone beyond their faith realm to campaign against the government in favour of human rights and democracy. In a one party state, campaigning against the government often leads to jail.
Another truth: Vietnam has constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion.
Another truth: Workers do not campaign against governments, nor do they champion human rights or democracy. They are no threat to the government, and being no threat, their risk of jail or death is extremely small.
Another truth: Open religion flourishes in Vietnam. Buddhism is openly practiced and temples are active.
Another truth: Workers are in danger only because of their own law-breaking practices. One, they are required to register their religious organization, even if they are a home church group. They do not and are breaking the law. They also acquire their visas without declaring their primary intention for being in the country: to run a religion, seek new converts, and transplant their foreign traditions on the local believers. The real danger here with naming workers is not due to the practice of their beliefs, but due to their illegal activities. So yes, the workers are in more danger for being named here than is the Vietnamese Friend who has been named here. In fact, the authorities would probably treat this Friend very well in exchange for information on the illegal practices of the F&Ws in Vietnam.
It's a mess. This is what happens when you practice deception and power politics. This whole thing could get pretty ugly for the foreign workers in Vietnam.
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May 27, 2013 22:56:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 22:56:46 GMT -5
Yes, SD, that appears to be the exact problem so far. The foreign tradition is that a country is carved up into territories and workers are given a territory with boundaries. No other worker is allowed to work across those boundaries without permission. These are foreign rules brought into Vietnam and enforced by foreign workers. Surely it should be easy for anyone to see that the problem is foreign rules, not the faithful native worker who is doing what he has always done, even when the foreigners weren't courageous enough to come into the country. Yes, both of you are correct. From my own source the clash problem began in 2010. Hopefully, the new Adm. will not tighten the rope too tight in their ways of thinking, the Westerners ways of running things over there. I believe they should have gone in there and let the two native brothers in charge, like they had done in the past, Be helpers to the natives! NOT be in charge of things or taken over the operation.Exactly Nathan. They should have gone in there to serve, not to rule.
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May 27, 2013 22:59:17 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 27, 2013 22:59:17 GMT -5
From my own source the clash problem began in 2010. Hopefully, the new Adm. will not tighten the rope too tight in their ways of thinking, the Westerners ways of running things over there. I believe they should have gone in there and let the two native brothers in charge, like they had done in the past, Be helpers to the natives! NOT be in charge of things or taken over the operation. Thank you Nathan.
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May 27, 2013 23:22:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 23:22:35 GMT -5
Thanks, SD, CD, fixit, Ed Masssey, Cherie, and those who care about what's going on over there. I hope the New Adm. will learn their lesson and easy the tension, by listen to the native friends and workers suggestion, feelings. Forgive and Forget old hard feelings of the whole situation. How many native friends and native workers are over there Nathan?
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May 27, 2013 23:38:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2013 23:38:06 GMT -5
How many native friends and native workers are over there Nathan? A few native workers but NOT many. Many friends. I Don't know the exact numbers of the friends. I hope you will understand why I answer the way I do. Thanks.My sources (workers) indicate not many friends there, at least in HCMC and Hanoi. Perhaps there are a lot of rural friends somewhere?
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May 28, 2013 2:41:09 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 2:41:09 GMT -5
To me, the numbers are not all that significant-- . The pain involved for the folks that wrote this letter (and their family and closer friends), is sufficient to make this a very serious matter. The story awakens memories in some of us that make it impossible for us to simply "turn our heads the other way and shuffle by on the other side of the road". (as a the inbred 2x2 reaction obviously is)
I am somewhat surprised that even on this list, there seems to be pressure to 'sweep it under the rug' and banish the issue to the stinky realms of the non-identifiable --- Under the rug that so effectively hides it from the Christian 'light of life'. I feel for the agony, distress and frustration that this poor older couple must feel as they realize that the organization they have given their lives and family to (for 52 years), have now simply turned their backs on them, and betrayed the very principles they had proudly stood for in the communities they lived in -- simply for an issue of power, and to prove 'who was the greatest'!!!. I remember the feeling!!
Edgar
I have tried to put myself into these folks situation -- 84/81 years old now, how healthy I don't know, economic challenges bringing up 7 kids, I don't know,- but I do know they have brought up these 7 children with all the struggle, tears and laughter that we know this entails -- went through the horrors of a terrible, meaningless and cruel war with the enormous political upheaval (and disagreement) ,most likely killed acquaintances and maybe family, and all the hate recovery that this must entail -- Seen their children develop according to the principles that they have tried to teach them -had countless meetings and workers in the home- seen grandchildren also follow in there belief system -- And then in the closing years of their lives, be completely betrayed by the very organization they had invested 50 years of their lives in, and done their very best to support. --Although I know nothing about it, I have experience to understand the upheaval this often causes, even within a close knit family) And then most likely abandoned by a major portion of their social life .. (we were anyways) We know what it feels like!
Think about it.
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