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Vietnam
May 24, 2013 16:31:49 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 24, 2013 16:31:49 GMT -5
I wonder if the writer of Edgar's letter intended it to be posted on a public forum?
If so, perhaps his son-in-law might be willing to post here directly?
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Vietnam
May 24, 2013 16:44:50 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 24, 2013 16:44:50 GMT -5
I wonder if the writer of Edgar's letter intended it to be posted on a public forum? If so, perhaps his son-in-law might be willing to post here directly? I don' believe Edgar's letter was intended to be posted on a public forum.This man is not a public figure, and it looks like a private letter, so I hope Edgar has his permission to post it. Otherwise it would be a treacherous breach of trust to post this letter online with the man's address included.
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May 24, 2013 19:12:32 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on May 24, 2013 19:12:32 GMT -5
The traditional Vietnamese clothing style for women is quite modest. I had a Vietnamese doll brought back to USA by an American soldier. The doll wore the ao dai - a floor length long dress slit up the side to the waist, with slacks under it. The ao dai dress style is quite modest! From Wiki: The áo dài is a Vietnamese national costume, now most commonly worn by women. In its current form, it is a tight-fitting silk tunic worn over pantaloons. Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing. Dài means "long". Probably some of the younger generation are wearing western clothing styles... Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks? What are the names of some of the American workers in Vietnam? In the 1960's there was a man there who some of the US Army servicemen met. I think his name was Fred something...? And I believe Phyllis Munn was there. I would wonder how much adversity the Canadian workers give the VN professing folks about wearing something that is not of their culture....I know for the islands and countries where it is tropical, the workers have been forced to accept that the native women in those countries wear their hair very short,, otherwise it would be unbearable! I suspect the workers in VN are objecting to women wearing slacks esp. with a tunic split up to their waste...too detracting for men to want to see just what that split might reveal!
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 19:38:28 GMT -5
Gorgeous. I could easily enjoy wearing those outfits.
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Vietnam
May 24, 2013 20:07:57 GMT -5
Post by SharonArnold on May 24, 2013 20:07:57 GMT -5
It made me really sad to read this thread. My initial reaction was similar to Sylvestra’s. However, truth to be told, I am a whole lot less concerned over workers safety, than I am over the person who first contacted Edgar. Edgar, I’m assuming that you have enough computer background to know how to block out identifying information. If not, send me the .jpg and I will be happy to do it for you. I believe Cherie's report of draconian bully workers in VN is accurate. We had a worker on home visit at convention not long ago. He told the young people not to bother coming to VN to visit if they are going to dress like they do in Canada. He talked about all his hard work to get the friends in VN to look godly and he didn't want Canadian young people ruining all his "hard work". "Make me proud of you when you come over here". This gives you a good idea of what's going on over there. Wow. I’m not really the contemporary of any of these workers (that I know personally), as I am some what younger. Still, I would like to think that that I have spent my whole life growing up. I would like to think that I am more mature now than I was even a year ago – and most certainly more mature than I was 20 years ago. It dumbfounds me when I am presented with evidence that other individuals I know have not matured in this time period, but may have actually regressed. What poverty of spirit (and of existence) should you ever be congratulating yourself over hard work in getting anyone to “look godly”. It baffles me what people derive from exercising power over others. In my experience, the only way to have ANYTHING (including power) is to give it away.
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May 24, 2013 21:33:41 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 21:33:41 GMT -5
It made me really sad to read this thread. My initial reaction was similar to Sylvestra’s. However, truth to be told, I am a whole lot less concerned over workers safety, than I am over the person who first contacted Edgar. Edgar, I’m assuming that you have enough computer background to know how to block out identifying information. If not, send me the .jpg and I will be happy to do it for you. I believe Cherie's report of draconian bully workers in VN is accurate. We had a worker on home visit at convention not long ago. He told the young people not to bother coming to VN to visit if they are going to dress like they do in Canada. He talked about all his hard work to get the friends in VN to look godly and he didn't want Canadian young people ruining all his "hard work". "Make me proud of you when you come over here". This gives you a good idea of what's going on over there. Wow. I’m not really the contemporary of any of these workers (that I know personally), as I am some what younger. Still, I would like to think that that I have spent my whole life growing up. I would like to think that I am more mature now than I was even a year ago – and most certainly more mature than I was 20 years ago. It dumbfounds me when I am presented with evidence that other individuals I know have not matured in this time period, but may have actually regressed. What poverty of spirit (and of existence) should you ever be congratulating yourself over hard work in getting anyone to “look godly”. It baffles me what people derive from exercising power over others. In my experience, the only way to have ANYTHING (including power) is to give it away. 20-25 years ago, we viewed this particular worker as an inspired preacher. Today, he seems like a shell of man, spurious, and small minded. I wonder.....did he change?.....or did we?
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May 24, 2013 21:59:31 GMT -5
Post by sacerdotal on May 24, 2013 21:59:31 GMT -5
It made me really sad to read this thread. My initial reaction was similar to Sylvestra’s. However, truth to be told, I am a whole lot less concerned over workers safety, than I am over the person who first contacted Edgar. Edgar, I’m assuming that you have enough computer background to know how to block out identifying information. If not, send me the .jpg and I will be happy to do it for you. Wow. I’m not really the contemporary of any of these workers (that I know personally), as I am some what younger. Still, I would like to think that that I have spent my whole life growing up. I would like to think that I am more mature now than I was even a year ago – and most certainly more mature than I was 20 years ago. It dumbfounds me when I am presented with evidence that other individuals I know have not matured in this time period, but may have actually regressed. What poverty of spirit (and of existence) should you ever be congratulating yourself over hard work in getting anyone to “look godly”. It baffles me what people derive from exercising power over others. In my experience, the only way to have ANYTHING (including power) is to give it away. 20-25 years ago, we viewed this particular worker as an inspired preacher. Today, he seems like a shell of man, spurious, and small minded. I wonder.....did he change?.....or did we? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that you changed.
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May 24, 2013 22:34:50 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 24, 2013 22:34:50 GMT -5
Abraham Lincoln: “Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
There are two parallel aspects to the 2x2 church:
1. That which many ordinary friends and workers experience i.e. a fellowship that follows Christ in simplicity and sincerity.
2. The power politics experienced by those higher up the hierarchy.
The Alberta incorporation illustrates this. Willis Propp, Jim Knipe, Richard Knight, Dennis Einboden, and Eldon Kendrew could see nothing wrong with taking an official name and organizing the church in spite of workers preaching against such practices and condemning other groups for doing so.
All the while, ordinary friends had no idea they had become members of an incorporated society. If the "members" i.e. all Alberta friends and workers had been consulted I expect they would have overwhelmingly opposed what the workers were signing them up for.
The following is so alien to what ordinary friends and workers believe:
6. Any member may withdraw from the Society by delivering to the Society a written resignation as a Member.
7. Should the Board determine a Member has behaved in a manner that has or is likely to endanger the interests or reputation of the Society, the Member may be expelled from membership by a vote of three-fourths of the Board at a meeting.
10. At every annual meeting [their annual conventions] in addition to any other business that may be transacted, there shall be presented a financial statement setting out the Society’s income, disbursements, assets and liabilities, audited and signed by the Society’s Auditor.
14. At all meetings of the Members, each Member shall be entitled to one vote and may vote in person or by proxy duly authorized…At all meetings of Members, every question shall be decided by a majority of votes of the Members present in person or represented by proxy.
17. There shall be an Overseer, a Chairman of the Board, a Secretary, an Auditor, and a Keeper of The Minutes.
BELIEVERS/DISCIPLES-The Believers/Disciples shall be in hearty fellowship with the Preachers/Apostles. They shall live quiet and peaceable lives in the land, subject as loyal citizens to the laws of their country and earning an honourable livelihood with their prime interest being matters that pertain to the Kingdom of God as set forth in the New Testament. The Believers/Disciples shall live in their own quarters, take up their own employment and shall not be bound to any of the Society's obligations. Fellowship services shall be in those homes of the Believers/Disciples designated by the Preachers/Apostles."
When this was discovered and made public, Willis blamed the "Freedom of Information" bill. He put the friends into a society they knew nothing about, then was indignant when they discovered it!
How much more do overseers do behind the friends' backs hoping they never discover it???
Can the gospel not be spread, and the church not be cared for, without underhanded and devious actions by the overseers?
Could the church be any worse off if workers practiced openness and accountability?
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May 24, 2013 22:37:56 GMT -5
Post by ts on May 24, 2013 22:37:56 GMT -5
Whether or not DS and other abusive overseers believe that Jesus is God or not will not stop them from abusing people. And the people that they are abusing will not care one fig whether they believe that Jesus is God or not. Believing or not believing that doctrine does not bring right ruling and peace.
Ts... can you just post D.S. initials only or any worker connection with VN on this thread. Thanks. We don't want to put anyone life in harm ways, or danger. But fine if we put these poor people's souls in danger by sending over such abusive men and supporting their ministry.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 22:41:30 GMT -5
20-25 years ago, we viewed this particular worker as an inspired preacher. Today, he seems like a shell of man, spurious, and small minded. I wonder.....did he change?.....or did we? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that you changed. A friend posted this on Facebook today: "True progress is displayed when we look back at what we were and think it was someone else."
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May 24, 2013 22:57:49 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 22:57:49 GMT -5
could someone please put it into plain print as I can't read it
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May 24, 2013 22:59:43 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2013 22:59:43 GMT -5
I'm not certain of what this group of workers have tried to impose on professing women, but in Hanoi motorbikes are extremely common transportation. Pants are by far the most practical and modest way to use that form of transportation. Let's hope they weren't trying to enforce dresses, even long ones, on the professing women. If this controversy is about a dress code for women, then as penance, those men workers that are stirring the pot need to be made to wear rayon, knee length dresses, with nude panty hose and heeled shoes. of course you are joking
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May 24, 2013 23:06:51 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 24, 2013 23:06:51 GMT -5
could someone please put it into plain print as I can't read it Posted by Cherie in this thread. Typed version of handwritten letter Edgar posted above. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Name and address not shown for security reasons) Viet Nam May 24, 2013 Hello Dear Uncle Edgar Massay How are you and your family? Surely that you don’t know me. I’ll introduce myself later but I know you well, just for your emails that you mentioned the story that Dale S. treated badly to Marg over 10 years ago. This happened the same 100% in Viet Nam today also by the Canadian workers! We’re facing, enduring! By chance my son-in-law, he found out in the internet those emails. So we did get comfort and key on as in Bible not by the guidance(?) of men or of organization! Perhaps we need your help… My name is ___ 84 years old, my wife 81. Both of us professed same night in 1961. We’re the first couple in the way in Viet Nam. Our home also is the first place for fel. Meeting in Viet Nam times. We had 7 children, 11 grand children, 6 great grd. children. Four of my children opened their houses for fel. Meeting and bread & cup. I had had big privilege to meet thousand friends, hundred workers in 9 countries, such as: London, Paris, Australia, USA…I used to send letter emails to 40-50 ones in 18 lands each time…We do enjoy so so much in God’s Family. How wonderful it is! BUT! How sad to say! Just in 2009 the Canadian workers such as M.G, D.T. including D.S, they began to do somethings that not guide by the Spirit of God. I can say, it make the situation become worse and worse! They themselves change and add many things more seriously than in Alberta!!! We spoke up to show disagree…but nothing better! We need your help, your idea… I’ll write more for the next, Hope to read from you soon. I close here with all the best to you… Yours in His love (signature)
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May 25, 2013 0:17:04 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 25, 2013 0:17:04 GMT -5
When I was among quite a few Vietnamese friends in California, some of the ladies told me that they wore skirts in the States to better fit in with other ladies here, but really preferred the Vietnamese-style pants, and some continued to wear those to the meetings even in the States. Perhaps one day the F&W will dress as the Vietnamese to have them feel more comfortable.
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Vietnam
May 25, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5
Thanks for the input --- as I have had no previous contact or knowledge of these folks -- or the work in Vietnam the last 12 years (since we were expelled). This letter came as an enclosed jpg file in an email -- so I have replied to the email and am looking forward to some more detail as to the circumstances involved. It would seem to shoot down the often propagated idea that expulsions are a thing of the past within the group.
Edgar
I have noted the PMs and posts suggesting that I hide the personal identity aspects of this letter posted on our Webb site --
Regarding the workers involved, I have absolutely no interest in being an accomplice in the concern to conceal the illegal aspects of their presence in Vietnam --
Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.
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Vietnam
May 25, 2013 1:01:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 1:01:35 GMT -5
could someone please put it into plain print as I can't read it Posted by Cherie in this thread. Typed version of handwritten letter Edgar posted above. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Name and address not shown for security reasons) Viet Nam May 24, 2013 Hello Dear Uncle Edgar Massay How are you and your family? Surely that you don’t know me. I’ll introduce myself later but I know you well, just for your emails that you mentioned the story that Dale S. treated badly to Marg over 10 years ago. This happened the same 100% in Viet Nam today also by the Canadian workers! We’re facing, enduring! By chance my son-in-law, he found out in the internet those emails. So we did get comfort and key on as in Bible not by the guidance(?) of men or of organization! Perhaps we need your help… My name is ___ 84 years old, my wife 81. Both of us professed same night in 1961. We’re the first couple in the way in Viet Nam. Our home also is the first place for fel. Meeting in Viet Nam times. We had 7 children, 11 grand children, 6 great grd. children. Four of my children opened their houses for fel. Meeting and bread & cup. I had had big privilege to meet thousand friends, hundred workers in 9 countries, such as: London, Paris, Australia, USA…I used to send letter emails to 40-50 ones in 18 lands each time…We do enjoy so so much in God’s Family. How wonderful it is! BUT! How sad to say! Just in 2009 the Canadian workers such as M.G, D.T. including D.S, they began to do somethings that not guide by the Spirit of God. I can say, it make the situation become worse and worse! They themselves change and add many things more seriously than in Alberta!!! We spoke up to show disagree…but nothing better! We need your help, your idea… I’ll write more for the next, Hope to read from you soon. I close here with all the best to you… Yours in His love (signature) thank you Greg
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May 25, 2013 1:12:41 GMT -5
Post by fixit on May 25, 2013 1:12:41 GMT -5
I doubt this is about a dress code.
I think its about conformity with the world-wide hierarchy.
H probably wanted to visit his friends and converts across field lines as he had done before the foreign workers came in and took control.
This was from DS regarding Marg Magowan's expulsion from the ministry:
A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.
It could be argued that DS did just that by getting involved in VietNam.
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May 25, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 25, 2013 1:39:43 GMT -5
Posted by Cherie in this thread. Typed version of handwritten letter Edgar posted above.... thank you Greg ...and more so Cherie. And you are welcome, virgo.
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May 25, 2013 1:57:52 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 25, 2013 1:57:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the input --- as I have had no previous contact or knowledge of these folks -- or the work in Vietnam the last 12 years (since we were expelled). This letter came as an enclosed jpg file in an email -- so I have replied to the email and am looking forward to some more detail as to the circumstances involved. It would seem to shoot down the often propagated idea that expulsions are a thing of the past within the group. Edgar I have noted the PMs and posts suggesting that I hide the personal identity aspects of this letter posted on our Webb site -- Regarding the workers involved, I have no interest in helping them conceal the illegal aspects of their presence in Vietnam -- Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.Who has been expelled in the Viet Nam situation? Who has indicated expulsions are a thing of the past? Will you inform us of your reply and any future communications?
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May 25, 2013 2:10:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 2:10:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the input --- as I have had no previous contact or knowledge of these folks -- or the work in Vietnam the last 12 years (since we were expelled). This letter came as an enclosed jpg file in an email -- so I have replied to the email and am looking forward to some more detail as to the circumstances involved. It would seem to shoot down the often propagated idea that expulsions are a thing of the past within the group. Edgar I have noted the PMs and posts suggesting that I hide the personal identity aspects of this letter posted on our Webb site -- Regarding the workers involved, I have no interest in helping them conceal the illegal aspects of their presence in Vietnam -- Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.Who has been expelled in the Viet Nam situation? Who has indicated expulsions are a thing of the past? Will you inform us of your reply and any future communications? Question 1: As described in the link in the original post on this thread the 84 year old man and 81 year old woman who had the first Sunday morning meeting in Vietnam where expelled recently. Question 2: There have been multiple discussions about the Alberta mass-excommunications that have suggested that workers learned a lesson and that things are different now. Question 3: Depending on what I get for a reply and how free I feel to share it, I will try and post developments as best I can.
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May 25, 2013 3:21:34 GMT -5
Post by Greg on May 25, 2013 3:21:34 GMT -5
Question 1: As described in the link in the original post on this thread the 84 year old man and 81 year old woman who had the first Sunday morning meeting in Vietnam where expelled recently. Question 2: There have been multiple discussions about the Alberta mass-excommunications that have suggested that workers learned a lesson and that things are different now. Question 3: Depending on what I get for a reply and how free I feel to share it, I will try and post developments as best I can. Thanks for the reply. 1 - Do you mean the letter? If so, I did not read that in the letter. I think the writer is indicating that something is happening in VN that is similar or same that happened with Marg. This could mean an expulsion, but that is not directly indicated. 2 - Lessons learned might mean "be careful on expulsions". There could be something to that. Has there been a similar whole sale excommunication since then? 3 - Okay.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 3:50:40 GMT -5
Question 1: As described in the link in the original post on this thread the 84 year old man and 81 year old woman who had the first Sunday morning meeting in Vietnam where expelled recently. Question 2: There have been multiple discussions about the Alberta mass-excommunications that have suggested that workers learned a lesson and that things are different now. Question 3: Depending on what I get for a reply and how free I feel to share it, I will try and post developments as best I can. Thanks for the reply. 1 - Do you mean the letter? If so, I did not read that in the letter. I think the writer is indicating that something is happening in VN that is similar or same that happened with Marg. This could mean an expulsion, but that is not directly indicated. 2 - Lessons learned might mean "be careful on expulsions". There could be something to that. Has there been a similar whole sale excommunication since then? 3 - Okay. I talked to them on the phone this morning (our time!)and gained some confirmation of what I read into the letter - As well I was able to express our understanding, sympathy and admiration for their courage and willingness for the cost of standing for truth -- I will admit that the language is somewhat of a problem, as my capacity to understand their spoken English is limited. I am now in the process of looking for a suitable Vietnamese person in our community to help me as translator. They have a large family and from the little I have understood, it would surprise me if there isn't a significant 'spill off' effect there amongst the family and acquaintances arround them as well , (as the vast majority of exits in Alberta where - including us!!) . The 'dissension cleansing' campaign started by the workers there in VN probably hasn't run its full course as yet -- I remember appreciating the folks that called us after our rejection -- (including the 'Clearday' poster on this board)
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May 25, 2013 6:26:29 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on May 25, 2013 6:26:29 GMT -5
The traditional Vietnamese clothing style for women is quite modest. I had a Vietnamese doll brought back to USA by an American soldier. The doll wore the ao dai - a floor length long dress slit up the side to the waist, with slacks under it. From Wiki: The áo dài is a Vietnamese national costume, now most commonly worn by women. In its current form, it is a tight-fitting silk tunic worn over pantaloons. Áo classifies the item as a piece of clothing. Dài means "long". Probably some of the younger generation are wearing western clothing styles... Wonder if the workers got them away from wearing the traditional clothing bcs it involved slacks? The overseer in Oregon Willie Jamemison, who had labored in China/Asia told the workers went overseas to labor. Do NOT try to make the natives to become Americans but Christians. Try to Respect their customs, culture. A wise man. In Asia skirts consider to be very immodest to the natives, it shows too MUCH skin and immodest when riding the motor bikes that is the normal transportation, most people do not own cars over there. The younger natives women do wear skirts sometimes to show they're a generation of new breed.Is it possible that the original workers didn't impose legalism on the first Vietnamese to profess?
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May 25, 2013 6:44:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 6:44:47 GMT -5
The overseer in Oregon Willie Jamemison, who had labored in China/Asia told the workers went overseas to labor. Do NOT try to make the natives to become Americans but Christians. Try to Respect their customs, culture. A wise man. In Asia skirts consider to be very immodest to the natives, it shows too MUCH skin and immodest when riding the motor bikes that is the normal transportation, most people do not own cars over there. The younger natives women do wear skirts sometimes to show they're a generation of new breed. Is it possible that the original workers didn't impose legalism on the first Vietnamese to profess? I think that most of us understand quite well that workers are most usually grossly dishonest about the legalistic aspects of their doctrine in the beginning with people that show interest, and then even during the earlier years after professing. They will emphatically declare that there are "no rules", and that it is completely up to the individual etc etc -- But if the 'group pressure' system doesn't doesn't produce 2x2 conformity within a few years, the clear cut rule system will kick in, and there will be milder percussion's -- which usually work fairly effectively. But if this doesn't succeed in producing compliancy -- then open shunning and open ridicule, and eventually even complete rejection is part of their toolbox. This development curve is hardly contestable!!
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May 25, 2013 7:14:40 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 7:14:40 GMT -5
Is it possible that the original workers didn't impose legalism on the first Vietnamese to profess? I think that most of us understand quite well that workers are most usually grossly dishonest about the legalistic aspects of their doctrine in the beginning with people that show interest, and then even during the earlier years after professing. They will emphatically declare that there are "no rules", and that it is completely up to the individual etc etc -- But if the 'group pressure' system doesn't doesn't produce 2x2 conformity within a few years, the clear cut rule system will kick in, and there will be milder repercussion's -- which usually work fairly effectively. But if this doesn't succeed in producing compliancy -- then open shunning and open ridicule, and eventually even complete rejection is part of their toolbox. This development curve is hardly contestable!! And not at all unique for Vietnam
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May 25, 2013 8:53:38 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 8:53:38 GMT -5
Question 1: As described in the link in the original post on this thread the 84 year old man and 81 year old woman who had the first Sunday morning meeting in Vietnam where expelled recently. Question 2: There have been multiple discussions about the Alberta mass-excommunications that have suggested that workers learned a lesson and that things are different now. Question 3: Depending on what I get for a reply and how free I feel to share it, I will try and post developments as best I can. Thanks for the reply. 1 - Do you mean the letter? If so, I did not read that in the letter. I think the writer is indicating that something is happening in VN that is similar or same that happened with Marg. This could mean an expulsion, but that is not directly indicated. 2 - Lessons learned might mean "be careful on expulsions". There could be something to that. Has there been a similar whole sale excommunication since then? 3 - Okay. We are short on facts here, but I expect that will be forthcoming with Edgar's future discussions with these folks. Here is what I would infer from what we know so far: The parallel with the Alberta situation, at this point, seems to start with Marg rather than the experiences of the friends who were very concerned about worker activities and began to bar workers from their homes on the basis of lying. In Vietnam, the problem (from what we can infer so far), starts with a couple of workers who were not conforming to the field territorial system (parallel with Marg) and one worker has been disciplined by being banished to another country where his effectiveness is greatly reduced due to language differences (typical 2x2 worker disciplinary action). The worker banished to the other country is being supported by Vietnam friends who are now being disciplined by banishment (the parallel with Edgar's support for Marg). I'm not sure where legalism is fitting into the story thus far. I'm quite sure that legalism is being practiced more stringently in Vietnam than in some of the Western countries, but how that fits into this worker discipline problem is something I don't see at this point.
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May 25, 2013 11:02:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 11:02:45 GMT -5
I can agree with Clearday, that the major point of disagreement seems to be as to who owns and rules the countrys geography, friends, workers and moral values of these folks in Vietnam. These Canadian workers seem to lay claim to these ownership rights, and understandably enough, the folks I have spoken with feel that these issues are not up for sale!!!
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2013 11:22:17 GMT -5
I can agree with Clearday, that the major point of disagreement seems to be as to who owns and rules the countrys geography, friends, workers and moral values of these folks in Vietnam. These Canadian workers seem to lay claim to these ownership rights, and understandably enough, the folks I have spoken with feel that these issues are not up for sale!!! Here is a fascinating bit of irony: The Vietnamese leadership that the workers fear so much that they stay underground illegally due to the government wanting to maintain their dictatorial powers over the people, is almost an identical parallel with the overseeing workers attempting to maintain their own dictatorial powers over the professing people. There is almost no difference, and the reaction of the people is identical: keep quiet, don't complain, don't get active or the leadership will banish you. The only difference is that the Vietnamese government has jail for insurrectionists, while the overseers only have shunning and excommunication for those who don't stay under their control. Ultimately, it is all about power and control in order to maintain the status quo of the organization, whether it is the overseers or the Vietnamese government. I have to wonder now if the Vietnamese friends are also starting to see a similar parallel with the foreign powers (France and the US) which once controlled Vietnam for so long and that they fought so hard to regain their own country. The workers are acting as though Vietnam is theirs to control, like they are old style imperialist interlopers. I wonder how Americans or Canadians would feel if a bunch of Vietnamese or Korean workers came over and started telling them what to do? I think we know the answer to that one.
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