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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 4, 2013 17:35:34 GMT -5
Rational and DMG Hope you make comments/corrections and add info. ken How to Talk to an Atheist about Christianity By Jason Anderson and Jennifer Fulwiler Once upon a time, not so long ago, atheism was the belief system that dared not speak its name. Even the most ardent skeptic paid lip service to faith, or at least to the blessings that mankind derived from it. But that's not the case anymore. Atheism is a strong and growing influence in our culture. You can see it everywhere from the bestseller table at your local bookstore to the Darwin-mutated Jesus fish on the car in traffic in front of you. Atheists are comfortable declaring themselves atheists, comfortable promoting atheism, and comfortable decrying religion, which, according to some of the more prominent atheists, resides on the list of mankind's blessings somewhere between diphtheria and Nazism. And now that we're encountering it more often, Christians sometimes find themselves ill-prepared to deal with this kind of muscular atheism. Especially for lifelong Christians, atheist arguments are so foreign that they don't know how to respond, and too often lapse into anger ("How dare you?!") or fear ("What if they're right?!"), neither of which does anyone any good, harming the Christian's witness and leaving the atheist firmly entrenched in his atheism. If we're going to be encountering more atheists (and we are, whether at work or the laundromat or around our own dinner tables), we should be prepared to explain our beliefs in a way that resonates with people outside the faith. As a starting point, what follows is a list of dos and don'ts to keep in mind when you find yourself discussing religion with an atheist: 1. Don't be afraid to admit that you have faith. Christians frequently report that they've been in situations where the topic of why they believe comes up, and all they can say is that they have faith even though they've never done any major investigation. They often seem embarrassed by this defense. If you get caught in a conversation about why you believe and that's all you've got, don't be afraid to go with that. Articulate it as best you can. For example, you might explain that your faith is not just a story you tell yourself to feel good, or talk about what leads you to believe that you have a real relationship with Something outside of the material world. 2. Don't assume that your atheist friends are secretly angry at God or feel like something is missing in their lives. Work from the assumption that this person is an atheist because he or she simply has not seen any evidence that God exists. 3. Don't quote the Bible, but do know the Bible. The Bible is a source of great wisdom, but if you quote it to an atheist as an authority, it will be like your doctor explaining his diagnosis by reading a passage from a Harry Potter book. Don't just cough up Bible verses and expect that to convince anybody. There are reasons why the Bible says the things it says. Know the reasons behind them and be prepared to explain them. 4. Don't feel like you have to have all the answers right then and there. It is far better to simply say, "Great question! I don't know the answer to that, but I'd love to research it and get back to you," than to wade into territory that you're not familiar with. 5. Explain the big picture. Familiarize yourself with the historical case for Christianity, and offer a high-level explanation of what makes this religion's claims compelling -- that Jesus' life and death fulfilled ancient scriptures that all historians agree existed before His time; that almost all the apostles were martyred for their faith; that Christianity spread like wildfire despite horrendous persecution. Study the writings of the earliest Christians, who were defending Christianity in a pagan world that was largely hostile to their beliefs (sound familiar?). 6. Be logical. Don't deny the validity of logical, scientific thought out of hand. It's true that science doesn't have all the answers, but it does have some of them, and if you try to deny that, you risk pushing yourself into crackpot territory. As Pope Benedict XVI is always reminding us, the God in whom we believe is a God of reason. There is a long, learned history of rational arguments for Christianity, and if you can use them, you'll be speaking in terms that your atheist friend can understand. Get to know some of the great Christian philosophers and apologists. If you haven't read C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity, what are you waiting for? 7. Realize that your only goal is to plant a seed. In these discussions we can sometimes get so focused on the details that we lose sight of the big picture. It's extremely unlikely that the person you're talking to is going to be completely convinced of the truth of Christianity in one conversation. Just defend Christianity the best you can, and remember that conversion is ultimately God's job, not yours. 8. Put yourself in your atheist friends' position. What if, for example, Christianity was false and Greek mythology was actually true? What would it take to convince you of that? 9. Don't use a lot of Christian catchphrases. Christians "give their hearts to Jesus" and "the Holy Spirit indwells us" and we take a "daily walk with Christ" so that we're "in the world but not of the world." All these phrases are meaningful and profound and instantly understandable for almost any Christian, but they don't mean anything to people who are outside the faith. It's hard to avoid them, because we're used to using them as shorthand for some very complex concepts. But you should be able to explain those concepts in plain terms anyway. 10. Pray. Don't make the mistake of relying solely on your own smarts when you have the Holy Spirit at your disposal. Pray for guidance for yourself and for a receptive heart within your atheist friend. You might be surprised at the effectiveness of this technique. It'll be good for you, too. We're not encouraging anyone to go out and pick a fight -- no one ever got harangued into the family of God. But with a little mental preparation, when the time comes, you'll be ready to present the case for faith in terms that are familiar to your non-believing friends and family members.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson is a web developer from Birmingham, Alabama, who posts thoughts on religion and culture at The Cynical Christian. Jennifer Fulwiler is a writer from Austin, Texas, who converted to Catholicism from lifelong atheism in 2007. She chronicles her ongoing conversion at ConversionDiary.com.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2013 18:12:17 GMT -5
While I've been told I'm more agnostic than atheist, I definitely am an atheist when it comes to the Christian God. I would like to know why it's important that Christians talk to atheists about God in the first place? If someone does not believe in your God it's okay. There is no need to try and get the atheist to convert. It's not likely to happen anyway. Most atheist's were once theists and know all the things you might say anyway. They have just come to the conclusion that it was not right for them and there is no evidence there is a God. They usually aren't angry with God because they don't believe there is a God to be angry with.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 4, 2013 19:01:50 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. Part of the problem is that so many Christians still actively campaign for anti-humanitarian beliefs, such as homophobic stances. Here in Minnesota it's horrible. Christians who cannot come to terms with humanitarian issues will be despised, so Christians need to emphasize that they are not actively against such life choices for OTHERS, just that their beliefs prevent them from participating in such things. Yet atheists have their own image problems. They are still the most distrusted group in America, because of recent aggressiveness. The New Atheist movement wishes to eradicate all religion. In politics, atheists are the least electible group, behind gays and African Americans. Here is a book I just reviewed that discusses the problem with the atheist image, and I recommend it highly: www.dubiousdisciple.com/2013/03/book-review-faitheist.html
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 19:25:19 GMT -5
My argument: There has to be some power source out there. Things don't just happen. There is too much order to the earth-the seasons, climate, plant life, etc. A highly structured genius in behind it all. Things don't just develop by accident. Accidents break things such as a broken glass or bombed out city. Everything has to have a power source including a battery, solar panel, gas, wind, etc. Something created us. It was planned and didn't develop by accident. Look at the complexity of the universe, nature, the human body. Look at the conscience. Atheists are nothings..they can tell you what they DO NOT BELIEVE IN i.e. creator, eternity,judgement day. But they cannot tell you what they believe in. When you pin them down, they cannot tell answer ANY of the probing questions of life. I have seen the age of the earth increase by several billion in my lifetime. There are things about the creation that we cannot know. I never stress out trying to figure it out. Most scientists contradict each other. And in a few years, another group of scientists will disprove the current crop of scientists. I know there is a higher power and a right/wrong way to live. I see the order of the earth. There is a power source out there. I have never seen a structured product originate from an accident. Someone planned and molded this earth that we walk on. It didn't just happen. There is a plan and purpose to life. Atheists are afraid to think lest they disprove their doctrine of Nothingness.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2013 19:55:41 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. Part of the problem is that so many Christians still actively campaign for anti-humanitarian beliefs, such as homophobic stances. Here in Minnesota it's horrible. Christians who cannot come to terms with humanitarian issues will be despised, so Christians need to emphasize that they are not actively against such life choices for OTHERS, just that their beliefs prevent them from participating in such things. Yet atheists have their own image problems. They are still the most distrusted group in America, because of recent aggressiveness. The New Atheist movement wishes to eradicate all religion. In politics, atheists are the least electible group, behind gays and African Americans. Here is a book I just reviewed that discusses the problem with the atheist image, and I recommend it highly: www.dubiousdisciple.com/2013/03/book-review-faitheist.htmlSo can the Christian groups and individuals can be pretty aggressive too. Some atheists just feel it is time to speak out. With more and more Christians turning to creationist mindsets and trying to get scientific books banned from schools that don't agree with evolution or other things they disagree with, I can totally understand why it is time to become more 'assertive'. Not everyone is a Christian. Why should those who are not be subjected to Christian beliefs? The only reason atheists have an image problem is because most people do believe in a God of some sort. When people say they don't, it seems hard to believe or even scary. Atheists are not monsters like they are made out to be by some people of religion. They are people just like anyone else that have different views, that's all. They are not less moral, compassionate or loving than someone who believes in God, but I've heard plenty of that.
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2013 19:59:51 GMT -5
My argument: There has to be some power source out there. Things don't just happen. There is too much order to the earth-the seasons, climate, plant life, etc. A highly structured genius in behind it all. Things don't just develop by accident. Accidents break things such as a broken glass or bombed out city. Everything has to have a power source including a battery, solar panel, gas, wind, etc. Something created us. It was planned and didn't develop by accident. Look at the complexity of the universe, nature, the human body. Look at the conscience. Atheists are nothings..they can tell you what they DO NOT BELIEVE IN i.e. creator, eternity,judgement day. But they cannot tell you what they believe in. When you pin them down, they cannot tell answer ANY of the probing questions of life. I have seen the age of the earth increase by several billion in my lifetime. There are things about the creation that we cannot know. I never stress out trying to figure it out. Most scientists contradict each other. And in a few years, another group of scientists will disprove the current crop of scientists. I know there is a higher power and a right/wrong way to live. I see the order of the earth. There is a power source out there. I have never seen a structured product originate from an accident. Someone planned and molded this earth that we walk on. It didn't just happen. There is a plan and purpose to life. Atheists are afraid to think lest they disprove their doctrine of Nothingness. I don't agree with you Walker.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 20:07:32 GMT -5
Atheists can't be specific in their disagreement and TELL YOU what they believe. They can only tell you what they don't believe in. They don't have any set of principles or tenets about the creation of life, morality, etc..
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Post by snow on Mar 4, 2013 20:11:36 GMT -5
Atheists can't be specific in their disagreement and TELL YOU what they believe. They can only tell you what they don't believe in. They don't have any set of principles or tenets about the creation of life, morality, etc.. While I think you are exaggerating this, I have yet to find that all people of religions agreeing on any set of principles or tenets about the creation of life, morality etc either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2013 20:38:45 GMT -5
There are things we all agree upon. There are things we don't and can't know. People spend money and time trying to find some things out and still never find them out. I know there is a higher power. I know this earth was formed and not created by accident. I know there is a right and wrong way to live. I know that we will die someday. I know that we can't know the age of the earth as none of us were there in those days. The earth is so complex. The plants, marine life, human beings, seasons etc.. I can believe in miracles. I have seen tornado damage. I know there is a higher power out there that we better not mess with. Good day.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 4, 2013 22:09:00 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. Part of the problem is that so many Christians still actively campaign for anti-humanitarian beliefs, such as homophobic stances. Here in Minnesota it's horrible. Christians who cannot come to terms with humanitarian issues will be despised, so Christians need to emphasize that they are not actively against such life choices for OTHERS, just that their beliefs prevent them from participating in such things. Yet atheists have their own image problems. They are still the most distrusted group in America, because of recent aggressiveness. The New Atheist movement wishes to eradicate all religion. In politics, atheists are the least electible group, behind gays and African Americans. Here is a book I just reviewed that discusses the problem with the atheist image, and I recommend it highly: www.dubiousdisciple.com/2013/03/book-review-faitheist.htmlSo can the Christian groups and individuals can be pretty aggressive too. Some atheists just feel it is time to speak out. With more and more Christians turning to creationist mindsets and trying to get scientific books banned from schools that don't agree with evolution or other things they disagree with, I can totally understand why it is time to become more 'assertive'. Not everyone is a Christian. Why should those who are not be subjected to Christian beliefs? The only reason atheists have an image problem is because most people do believe in a God of some sort. When people say they don't, it seems hard to believe or even scary. Atheists are not monsters like they are made out to be by some people of religion. They are people just like anyone else that have different views, that's all. They are not less moral, compassionate or loving than someone who believes in God, but I've heard plenty of that. Snow Do you believe this article encourages a Christian to be aggressive? ken
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 4, 2013 22:10:48 GMT -5
Rational and DMG Hope you make comments/corrections and add info. ken How to Talk to an Atheist about Christianity By Jason Anderson and Jennifer Falwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson is a web developer from Birmingham, Alabama, who posts thoughts on religion and culture at The Cynical Christian. Jennifer Falwell is a writer from Austin, Texas, who converted to Catholicism from lifelong atheism in 2007. She chronicles her ongoing conversion at Conversion Diary.com. I don't know how many times that I have saved myself a lot of time answering articles by simply taking look at the person writing the article.
So, I checked on co-author, Jennifer Fulwiler , of this article who was stated to have been "a life long atheist" before converting to Catholism.
When someone states they were a atheist before they became a convert, it always raises a red flag for me.
The article was from the CNA, Catholic News Agency. I was prepared for some subtle ring-around- the-rosemary-bush attempt to validate her having been an atheist.
I needn't have wasted paper & ink to even have copied the article.
Of all the lame reasons she gave for having been an atheist, I think it was the lamest I've heard, and I've heard plenty.
I just sat here & shook my head & wished I'd have saved paper & ink.
The reason that she gave for having been a atheist is the she hadn't believed in an ouiia board!. Yes, you read that right, an ouija board!
So, sorry, ken.
I'm not going to take the time to answer that article.
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Post by rational on Mar 5, 2013 1:55:48 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. I don't know who the New Atheists are but I would guess they would be the counterpart to the Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. I see the term New Atheist but do you have some examples where they have been aggressive?
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Post by rational on Mar 5, 2013 2:03:11 GMT -5
Atheists can't be specific in their disagreement and TELL YOU what they believe. I believe that the universe was created in accordance with the natural laws of science and not by any being. I think I can be quite specific. I do not believe in the paranormal. I do believe in the second law of thermodynamics. What other questions do you have?So I have no principles? No opinions about the creation of life? No morality? How do your morals differ from mine? Because you follow yours as you believe your god commands? Are our morals based on the fear or eternal damnation?
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Post by rational on Mar 5, 2013 2:09:19 GMT -5
There are things we all agree upon. There are things we don't and can't know. People spend money and time trying to find some things out and still never find them out. I know there is a higher power. I know this earth was formed and not created by accident. I know there is a right and wrong way to live. I know that we will die someday. I know that we can't know the age of the earth as none of us were there in those days. The earth is so complex. The plants, marine life, human beings, seasons etc.. I can believe in miracles. I have seen tornado damage. I know there is a higher power out there that we better not mess with. Good day. I see a lot of "I knows" but no data to back it up. Let's focus on how you know there is a right and wrong way to live. What is your basis for the way you live?
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Post by rational on Mar 5, 2013 2:26:58 GMT -5
My argument: There has to be some power source out there. Things don't just happen. Actually, some things do "just happen". Really? The floods, the happenings that destroyed much of the life on earth, the areas when no one can live, the earthquakes that kill thousands, etc. You see this as highly structured? And you believe that complexity equals planning? There are so many things that point to extremely poor planning that the idea of intelligent design is laughable. What are these probing questions? Is there some rule stating this? Probably not your field. Really? No consensus? I think you will be hard pressed to find scientists who do not agree that the earth is 4+ billion years old.I know. Isn't research wonderful? New facts and then new theories to explain the data. So unlike religion where the facts are simply dismissed. As I asked above, how do you know the right and wrong way to live? Could be because it is not in your sphere of knowledge. Afraid to think. Hmmm. I don't know what to think about that!
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Post by snow on Mar 5, 2013 12:57:04 GMT -5
So can the Christian groups and individuals can be pretty aggressive too. Some atheists just feel it is time to speak out. With more and more Christians turning to creationist mindsets and trying to get scientific books banned from schools that don't agree with evolution or other things they disagree with, I can totally understand why it is time to become more 'assertive'. Not everyone is a Christian. Why should those who are not be subjected to Christian beliefs? The only reason atheists have an image problem is because most people do believe in a God of some sort. When people say they don't, it seems hard to believe or even scary. Atheists are not monsters like they are made out to be by some people of religion. They are people just like anyone else that have different views, that's all. They are not less moral, compassionate or loving than someone who believes in God, but I've heard plenty of that. Snow Do you believe this article encourages a Christian to be aggressive? ken No Ken, I don't think it encourages a Christian to be aggressive. It does keep the Christian feeling there is some use in trying to evangelize though and I think that is a mistake. Like I stated to DD, most atheists have already been theists and know a lot about the religion they once were. Also, atheists tend to know more about many religions not just the one they have been in. They are able to see the bigger picture because they have studied things without being tied to any one religious belief system. So talking to an atheist probably is a waste of your time if you're trying to convert them. However I've never known one that doesn't like discussing things and sharing thoughts. I don't appreciate it when my family tries to 'convert' me especially when I probably have studied more about the history and philosophy of their religion than they have. Some of the things they believe to be true, simply are not. I just let them be most of the time unless they ask for my reasons. Even then I try to not get into it with them. So in many ways, it's pointless to try and convert an ex theist and is a frustrating experience for both parties imo. btw if you're looking for suggestions of how to talk to an atheist, Walker's post is probably a good example of how 'not' to talk to an atheist. Calling any segment of society, 'nothings' is not really conducive to conversation with that segment.
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Post by snow on Mar 5, 2013 12:58:30 GMT -5
Rational and DMG Hope you make comments/corrections and add info. ken How to Talk to an Atheist about Christianity By Jason Anderson and Jennifer Falwell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jason Anderson is a web developer from Birmingham, Alabama, who posts thoughts on religion and culture at The Cynical Christian. Jennifer Falwell is a writer from Austin, Texas, who converted to Catholicism from lifelong atheism in 2007. She chronicles her ongoing conversion at Conversion Diary.com. I don't know how many times that I have saved myself a lot of time answering articles by simply taking look at the person writing the article.
So, I checked on co-author, Jennifer Fulwiler , of this article who was stated to have been "a life long atheist" before converting to Catholism.
When someone states they were a atheist before they became a convert, it always raises a red flag for me.
The article was from the CNA, Catholic News Agency. I was prepared for some subtle ring-around- the-rosemary-bush attempt to validate her having been an atheist.
I needn't have wasted paper & ink to even have copied the article.
Of all the lame reasons she gave for having been an atheist, I think it was the lamest I've heard, and I've heard plenty.
I just sat here & shook my head & wished I'd have saved paper & ink.
The reason that she gave for having been a atheist is the she hadn't believed in an ouiia board!. Yes, you read that right, an ouija board!
So, sorry, ken.
I'm not going to take the time to answer that article.
A ouija board!! She was an atheist because she didn't believe in an ouija board? Or she became a Catholic because she didn't believe in a ouija board? Wow, that is a new one either way...
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Post by emy on Mar 5, 2013 15:33:00 GMT -5
I don't know how many times that I have saved myself a lot of time answering articles by simply taking look at the person writing the article.
So, I checked on co-author, Jennifer Fulwiler , of this article who was stated to have been "a life long atheist" before converting to Catholism.
When someone states they were a atheist before they became a convert, it always raises a red flag for me.
The article was from the CNA, Catholic News Agency. I was prepared for some subtle ring-around- the-rosemary-bush attempt to validate her having been an atheist.
I needn't have wasted paper & ink to even have copied the article.
Of all the lame reasons she gave for having been an atheist, I think it was the lamest I've heard, and I've heard plenty.
I just sat here & shook my head & wished I'd have saved paper & ink.
The reason that she gave for having been a atheist is the she hadn't believed in an ouiia board!. Yes, you read that right, an ouija board!
So, sorry, ken.
I'm not going to take the time to answer that article.
A ouija board!! She was an atheist because she didn't believe in an ouija board? Or she became a Catholic because she didn't believe in a ouija board? Wow, that is a new one either way... You should check out her Conversion Diary website (Conversiondiary.com). She's a talented writer and not only into "conversion" topics. In fact that is probably a small topic, and her posts are listed by topic! She's very entertaining. And BTW, the ouija board was the beginning of her belief in something supernatural - on the evil side.
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Post by snow on Mar 5, 2013 16:29:37 GMT -5
A ouija board!! She was an atheist because she didn't believe in an ouija board? Or she became a Catholic because she didn't believe in a ouija board? Wow, that is a new one either way... You should check out her Conversion Diary website (Conversiondiary.com). She's a talented writer and not only into "conversion" topics. In fact that is probably a small topic, and her posts are listed by topic! She's very entertaining. And BTW, the ouija board was the beginning of her belief in something supernatural - on the evil side. Thanks emy, she does sound 'entertaining'. Found it: www.conversiondiary.com/category/atheismSo because of an Ouija Board she decided there was something supernatural and determined from that it was also evil? That's a pretty huge leap into Catholic faith but whatever... It's a game. I have one in my closet I'd forgotten was even there. Been cleaning out stuff getting ready to downsize and came across it in an old box. It used to be lots of fun, but no one I know ever took it seriously.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 5, 2013 16:49:50 GMT -5
A Ouija board!! She was an atheist because she didn't believe in an Ouija board? Or she became a Catholic because she didn't believe in a Ouija board? Wow, that is a new one either way... You should check out her Conversion Diary website (Conversiondiary.com). She's a talented writer and not only into "conversion" topics. In fact that is probably a small topic, and her posts are listed by topic! She's very entertaining. And BTW, the Ouija board was the beginning of her belief in something supernatural - on the evil side. I did check her "conversion diary". One can indeed be a talented writer without having anything worth while writing.
Ron Hubbard is an excellent sci-fi writer, but do you believe the religion he founded?
Do you believe that the Ouija board is truly a supernatural manifestation of evil?
I agree with snow, many atheists were formally theists & know more about religion than many theists.
That search was the reason I became an atheist.
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Post by Greg on Mar 5, 2013 17:14:37 GMT -5
How To Talk To An Atheist
Begin with a friendly greeting, such as "hello".
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 5, 2013 17:18:16 GMT -5
How To Talk To An Atheist Begin with a friendly greeting, such as "hello". Thanks Greg I believe it is difficult to tell someone you love them after poking them in the eye! ken
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 5, 2013 18:52:27 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. I don't know who the New Atheists are but I would guess they would be the counterpart to the Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. I see the term New Atheist but do you have some examples where they have been aggressive? The face of the "New Atheism" is writers like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, among others. Books such as "God is not Good", "The God Delusion", "The End of Faith." The movement appears to have brought a number of angry atheists out of their shells, and if you go searching for atheist forums or gatherings you'll often encounter a very vitriolic atmosphere...an intense hatred for religion. I have been attacked with every four-letter word you can imagine for daring to side with Christians. I believe it is a serious problem for atheists, an image problem which will be hard to overcome. Really: check out this book by a disillusioned atheist: www.dubiousdisciple.com/2013/03/book-review-faitheist.html
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 5, 2013 19:15:53 GMT -5
ON the contrary, Snow, the New Atheist movement can be very aggressive. Christians wind up not so much evangelizing as defending a belief system anymore. Part of the problem is that so many Christians still actively campaign for anti-humanitarian beliefs, such as homophobic stances. Here in Minnesota it's horrible. Christians who cannot come to terms with humanitarian issues will be despised, so Christians need to emphasize that they are not actively against such life choices for OTHERS, just that their beliefs prevent them from participating in such things. Yet atheists have their own image problems. They are still 1) the most distrusted group in America, because of recent aggressiveness. 2) The New Atheist movement wishes to eradicate all religion.
3) In politics, atheists are the least electible group, behind gays and African Americans. Can you give me facts to back up these first 2 statements?
We know that atheists are the least electable but that tells me more about how people are deceived by religion than it does about atheists.[/b]
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 5, 2013 20:20:31 GMT -5
I don't know who the New Atheists are but I would guess they would be the counterpart to the Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. I see the term New Atheist but do you have some examples where they have been aggressive? 1) The face of the "New Atheism" is writers like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, among others. 2) Books such as " God is not Good", " The God Delusion", " The End of Faith." 3) The movement appears to have brought a number of angry atheists out of their shells, and if you go searching for 4) atheist forums or gatherings you'll often encounter a very vitriolic atmosphere...an intense hatred for religion. 5) I have been attacked with every four-letter word you can imagine for daring to side with Christians. l 1) I've heard Dawkins speak, and yes, he doesn't "suffer fools gladly", however, it isn't difficult for me to understand why. When you constantly live in a environment of beliefs in the supernatural that are completely at odds with reality.
2) Have you read any of these books?
3) I would just say that the movement showed us a sane world in what so often is an absolutely insane milieu.
4) I've been at several atheistic forums & never encountered any "vitriolic" atmosphere nor any "hatred" of religion.
We once had a speaker who was a former member of the Christian Science church & what she reported did raise most of our hackles.
The Christian Science church does not believe in the use medicine or doctors.
I don't think I will ever forget one incidence where a baby died from an intussuception, a telescoping of the bowel into itself. Surgery would have corrected it. The suffering that baby suffered did indeed make us "angry"
5) What were the circumstances where people attacked you in that manner?
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Post by snow on Mar 5, 2013 21:09:46 GMT -5
I don't know who the New Atheists are but I would guess they would be the counterpart to the Fundamentalist Christian or Muslim. I see the term New Atheist but do you have some examples where they have been aggressive? The face of the "New Atheism" is writers like Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, among others. Books such as "God is not Good", "The God Delusion", "The End of Faith." The movement appears to have brought a number of angry atheists out of their shells, and if you go searching for atheist forums or gatherings you'll often encounter a very vitriolic atmosphere...an intense hatred for religion. I have been attacked with every four-letter word you can imagine for daring to side with Christians. I believe it is a serious problem for atheists, an image problem which will be hard to overcome. Really: check out this book by a disillusioned atheist: www.dubiousdisciple.com/2013/03/book-review-faitheist.htmlI think you will find more vocal people in all groups. There are quite a few Christians that are every bit as aggressive and vocal as Dawkins. Difference is, he usually can back up his statements with fact. So far that is hard for the religious world because their beliefs are based on faith. For those who deal with facts, like Dawkins, it's hard to listen to the all the faith based statements. He is what he is. I actually think Harris makes good points and tries to do so in a more tolerant polite way. I have read books written by all of them, and I like Harris best.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 5, 2013 21:16:53 GMT -5
1) I've heard Dawkins speak, and yes, he doesn't "suffer fools gladly", however, it isn't difficult for me to understand why. When you constantly live in a environment of beliefs in the supernatural that are completely at odds with reality. Well, there you go. "Don't suffer fools." That's precisely the egotistical, sneering attitude that doesn't endear atheists to believers. Look, I know believers can be frustrating and sneering too. But it's definitely a two-way street, and the fanatics on both sides are the ones in the limelight. I've read them all, and many more. I read books of all religious persuasions, and lean more toward atheism than conservative Christianity. Don't forget the oft-stated purpose of the New Atheist movement: To totally eradicate the world of religion. Atheists have very strong anti-religious beliefs about the harmfulness of believing, and are not shy about it. You are very lucky, then. [/color][/quote] I'm not complaining, DM, I'm simply pointing out a discouraging trend. Militant atheists know that one way they can push Christian buttons is to use vulgarities, so when they want to ridicule, they pepper every sentence with such language. "F--- Jesus and all his f---ing Christians" is a common phrase. One found out I had written a book about John's Gospel (which, apparently makes me one of the enemy) and immediately trashed it on multiple book review forums without reading it. You cannot have a reasonable conversation on some atheist forums until you first confess (in colorful language, of course) that all Christians are deluded idiots. You are very lucky if you have never encountered this. It's a serious image problem that atheists must counter, just as Christians must counter outspoken fundamentalist trends in Christian ranks.
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Post by snow on Mar 5, 2013 21:26:58 GMT -5
DD, yes I have seen this. I am on a Religious forum, but it is one that has all religions and atheists too. A good forum actually. I have learned a lot about other religions and it's been fascinating. However, there are always a few in any of those groups that are very outspoken and fanatic about their beliefs. I usually ignore them because there will always be fanatics no matter what. Fanatic beliefs of any kind always strike me as a bit scary.
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