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Post by fixit on Oct 26, 2016 20:16:34 GMT -5
People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless. I hope Noel Tanner gets the same special treatment in prison that he would in a US prison. I hope he gets lots of it. Perhaps spineless, or perhaps simply fearful. Some people think all workers are "the Lord's anointed" faults and all. Some people are scared of the consequences of exposing a worker's sins (shunning, excommunication, a lost eternity). Some think workers who fail sexually should have their sins covered because: 1. Noah's son covered the nakedness of his father. 2. There's not enough workers and souls might perish is workers are forced out of the work. 3. It's somehow the victim's fault. 4. The victim will "get over it". 5. It happened a long time ago. DISCLAIMER: I personally don't condone what is outlined above!
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 8:14:24 GMT -5
Hi Rational It would seem that we agree on a lot of things and lest I have mislead you at any point I will attempt to clarify some things. I think we probably do agree and you did a good job of explaining. Perhaps the major difference is that You are closer to the events and I an looking from afar. You are looking at the events with the expected emotions and I am striving to look at the events without emotion. And, as a result my comments are seen as being without the milk of human kindness. It seems that you did not know Noel well. You knew the persona he wanted people to know. Having worked a number of years with criminals of this type and their victims, this is often the case. When the reporters interview the neighbors of the serial killers, sexual abusers, cases of domestic abuse the comments are very often the same - "They were the nicest people. They would help mow our lawn and in the winter they shoveled the walk. I can't believe they killed 9 people in their basement." Bottom line - the criminals are good at their job. You are right. God has nothing to do with crime. One of the basic facts that allow criminals to be successful. The one point that believers have to he educated about - People are people and there is no one, regardless of their profession, who should be trusted explicitly. He was, and is, a human and should be looked at just like any other human. Given his position he should have been considered and examined like a family member should be examined. Abuse is usually at the hands of famly members and people well known, and trusted, by the victim and their family. Those who took it upon themselves to try and coverup the abuse of the abused telling them and theirs to keep quiet about it,then and all down the years and still do, Attempt of a total cover up Ongoing neglect etc - These are showing no sign of Christlike Love which is the Cornerstone. This is where upfront and a very pointed education plan can help. Workers are people and they need to be viewed as people. The believers may have to consider them to be appointed by god on the spiritual side of the fence but on the secular side of the fence the workers need to be viewed and judged as perhaps fallible humans. I understand. But this is the result of your beliefs and not data driven. Agreed although what you call christlike I call moral human. Exactly. I think you just did.
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Post by withlove on Oct 27, 2016 8:58:13 GMT -5
It is a significant part of the story. Maybe the timing isn't to your liking, but people can still benefit from knowing. What timing isn't to my liking? This part: The last thing that is needed is after a decade or so to hear of "...abuse of the abused being told to keep quiet about it".
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 9:01:37 GMT -5
People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless. They may be believers who hold the belief that their god is in control of the world, that the workers are god's servants, and that what happens in the 'spiritual world' is god's will'. As I mentioned in another post, this is an area where education can make a huge difference. People have to come to the understanding that there is a spiritual and secular side to the F&Ws and while they can cling to the spiritual side they need to address things that happen that are not part of 'god's will' (for lack of a better term) with the secular authorities. Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs.This statement is just a step away from encouraging vigilante behavior. We should strive for the moral treatment of all humans.
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 9:09:23 GMT -5
What timing isn't to my liking? This part: The last thing that is needed is after a decade or so to hear of "...abuse of the abused being told to keep quiet about it".I can see I didn't express this as clearly as I might have. I believe that abuse and suspicion of abuse should be reported to the authorities. With that in mind, the last thing people should be hearing is that they should not report and should keep quiet about any crime. After all that has been exposed there should be no more statements like the one I quoted.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 27, 2016 10:33:19 GMT -5
People who leave these atrocities in God's hands with zero action on their part are spineless. People who cover it up are spineless. People who are knowledgeable about this and are guilty of inaction are spineless. Anyone who protects a worker guilty of CSA are spineless. They may be believers who hold the belief that their god is in control of the world, that the workers are god's servants, and that what happens in the 'spiritual world' is god's will'. As I mentioned in another post, this is an area where education can make a huge difference. People have to come to the understanding that there is a spiritual and secular side to the F&Ws and while they can cling to the spiritual side they need to address things that happen that are not part of 'god's will' (for lack of a better term) with the secular authorities. Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs.This statement is just a step away from encouraging vigilante behavior. We should strive for the moral treatment of all humans. "Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs."
If anyone has knowledge of CSA and does nothing about it, then I call them specific things. I censor it on this page to spineless. You may see it as people who stand up for their beliefs. I will never see inaction and knowing of CSA and doing NOTHING as standing for one's beliefs. Fixit had a good response about this. But really, Rational? You claim it's unfair and belittles their beliefs. That's your statement and you can have it. It's not mine and it's not everyone's take on this. If anyone knows of CSA and does nothing, or covers it up, they are feeding the problem and are an injustice to the victim. I am sure you will reply with something because you always do. If you can't help it, then reply. But I stand by what I said with morals and values that I am comfortable with.
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 12:41:01 GMT -5
"Calling people spineless who stand up for their beliefs in the face of adversity, whether they are right or wrong, is unfair and belittles their beliefs." If anyone has knowledge of CSA and does nothing about it, then I call them specific things. I censor it on this page to spineless. I am sure you do and that is your right. Discussions about CSA always cause knee-jerk reactions. It is an emotional topic and many people cannot separate out the emotional side.Perhaps you do not. But try to look at it from the true believer's side. They believe they are members of the only way to salvation. They trust and believe that the workers are the way to heaven. While they love their children and it causes them pain to see their child harmed, they have to weigh this earthly concern against their spiritual concern and, looking to the bible, there is support for which things they should consider most important. If they consider the events and look at: "I tell you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!a"they may well be willing to not report a person who they equate with someone who has the power to excommunicate them with the end result, in their mind, to have them end up in hell. Yes, I feel it may belittle their beliefs just as it would to call a JW spineless because they stand up to a hospbeliefs of others with whom you disagreeital in an attempt to prevent giving their child a life saving blood transfusion. There is a better way to address a difference in beliefs other than to belittle a person's beliefs.You are correct, I have never claimed to be posting the beliefs or ideas of anyone else.Yes they are. My project today has about a 20 minute refresh rate so I have many slices of time to fill! That's great. However, I an sure that at least some of the people who were told not to report the events for the sake of the F&W thought long and hard about the decision they had to make. If you read the letters regarding events like this you can see the anguish in their reports of the events. This is not the type of a decision that most parents would take lightly and to call them 'spineless' and whatever terms you have in mind does not add any benefit. Or course, looking back and from afar, one could question why they decided as they did. But knowing a little about their beliefs one can understand the issues they were facing and why they made the decisions they did. And while the basis of their beliefs seem seem flawed they did stand up for what they believed. Decisions of this magnitude are not decisions that most parents take lightly and, in hindsight, they are probably decisions that the parents regret. Berating them for the decisions they made and calling them spineless, and here I am speaking only for myself, seems cruel.
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Post by vanillagorilla on Oct 27, 2016 13:48:42 GMT -5
"they may well be willing to not report a person who they equate with someone who has the power to excommunicate them with the end result, in their mind, to have them end up in hell. "
That is the saddest thing I have had enter my mind in 2016. For any who feel this way about power the workers have... I can't even...
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Post by rational on Oct 27, 2016 14:12:29 GMT -5
"they may well be willing to not report a person who they equate with someone who has the power to excommunicate them with the end result, in their mind, to have them end up in hell. " That is the saddest thing I have had enter my mind in 2016. For any who feel this way about power the workers have... I can't even... The discussion is about abuse that happened not in 2016 but decades earlier and the letters and testimonies people have left do tend to support the idea that people did have this idea regarding the power of the workers. And not reporting the workers was because of this belief and other statements such as "There are so few workers in the field that we must support the ones who remain".
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Post by whiterabbit on Nov 2, 2016 12:49:35 GMT -5
Well its november and THE ABUSER will will have another day in court, while the ABUSED will never get over the damage done to them and there families.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2016 12:59:00 GMT -5
Well its november and THE ABUSER will will have another day in court, while the ABUSED will never get over the damage done to them and there families. Never say never, God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 3, 2016 17:09:36 GMT -5
Just to let all the victims and their extended families and friends know that I think of you everyday and you are not forgotten by me
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Post by whiterabbit on Nov 8, 2016 3:31:05 GMT -5
The ABUSED awake if there lucky enough to sleep to another day of the broken life of a sexually abused person
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 8, 2016 11:53:49 GMT -5
The ABUSED awake if there lucky enough to sleep to another day of the broken life of a sexually abused person As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before them So many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2016 11:59:02 GMT -5
The ABUSED awake if there lucky enough to sleep to another day of the broken life of a sexually abused person As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before them So many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right?
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 8, 2016 15:21:29 GMT -5
Yes Some do and some never will The ongoing treatment of the abused by those that claim to be portraying God's love is this displayed by cover up neglect etc It is hard to benefit from counselling when this part of the abuse is ongoing
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Post by fixit on Nov 8, 2016 16:01:46 GMT -5
As I have said before the abused are Sentenced To Life Without Reprieve Their families and close friends suffer as they watch their loved ones inwardly die before them So many lives ruined by one hypocritical low life that abused the trust that had been put in himy Noel has pleaded guilty and will be sentenced Won't heal wounds but ensure hopefully he won't ruin any more lives Where is the Love now being shown to the abused why does the neglect continue and the "don't mention the war" cover up still continue Those who ensured there was a cover up and we're aware of what happened should go home and stop letting on they have done nothing wrong My heart bleeds for the abused in more than one way some lasting around 50 years you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right? The word "Rebuild" seems inappropriate for CSA victims. Sexually abused kids might look OK on the outside but something critically important dies inside. I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there.
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Post by rational on Nov 9, 2016 10:20:48 GMT -5
you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right? The word "Rebuild" seems inappropriate for CSA victims. Sexually abused kids might look OK on the outside but something critically important dies inside. I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there. Looking at this from the side of having worked with 100's of people who have been in counseling and been involved with the follow-up as well I am wondering what you feel the limitations are and what is no longer there?
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Post by rational on Nov 9, 2016 10:22:34 GMT -5
Yes Some do and some never will The ongoing treatment of the abused by those that claim to be portraying God's love is this displayed by cover up neglect etc It is hard to benefit from counselling when this part of the abuse is ongoing What are the ages of the abused that you are addressing? Can you explain what you consider the ongoing abuse?
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 9, 2016 20:28:28 GMT -5
I personally (nothing to do with this case) have had counselling of different kinds and have not been helped But that is irrelevant
With regards to the victims ages I can not be sure as I don't know all of his victims I would guess from mid 40<70 Most tried burying it and it eventually erupted Some felt they would never be believed because Noel Tanner was a worker Some never told their parents
The ongoing abuse I refer to is of at least 2 forms The fact of having to face the day or night knowing you were assaulted Flashbacks and the feeling of worthlessness Secondly A lot if not all the workers Do Know most if not all that were interfered with in a sexual manner All down the years the worker's attitude was say nothing about it Don't rock the boat we'll ignore you in case you bring the crime up avoidance at convention neglect and generally looked down on
Some may have been given "place" to say nothing as their words would have carried weight I don't think Avoidance Neglect Coverup are Fruits of the Spirit but it would seem some workers must see it that way The way the abused have been treated by the senior workers powers that be is ongoing abuse and does insinuate that the abused did something wrong
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 21:13:15 GMT -5
Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
these are the verses that are probably being used to cover up stuff....
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 10, 2016 5:51:03 GMT -5
Jas_5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. 1Pe_4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins. these are the verses that are probably being used to cover up stuff.... Yes very true but that doesn't cover up since it says get up and show your love to the abused Some are at the stage where sorry is to late but at least the workers should be manly sorry Godly enough to admit they have let the abused down Love is an action not just a nod of the head but that was even too much for some My heart goes out to the abused and those who are close to them
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 14:57:50 GMT -5
you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right? The word "Rebuild" seems inappropriate for CSA victims. Sexually abused kids might look OK on the outside but something critically important dies inside. I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there. Yes, and that something is called trust, real trust.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2016 14:59:07 GMT -5
you do know that some people get counseling and rebuild thier lives right? The word "Rebuild" seems inappropriate for CSA victims. Sexually abused kids might look OK on the outside but something critically important dies inside. I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there. Yes, and that something is called trust, real trust.
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Post by fixit on Nov 10, 2016 15:45:47 GMT -5
The word "Rebuild" seems inappropriate for CSA victims. Sexually abused kids might look OK on the outside but something critically important dies inside. I'm all for counselling, but it has limitations. Let's not pretend it can "rebuild" something that is no longer there. Yes, and that something is called trust, real trust. Trust is part of it. Anyone who sincerely wants to understand child sexual abuse can do the research themselves.
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Post by rational on Nov 10, 2016 18:11:27 GMT -5
I personally (nothing to do with this case) have had counselling of different kinds and have not been helped But that is irrelevant Yes. So they are, for the most part, adults.Not an uncommon event. Common in these cases. Not really abuse but a condition which needs to be addressed by a professional who works with this type of occurrence. If this is the case why would you go gto convention or associate with the workers in any way? This is a choice the person makes. This is a crime. Fruits of the spirit is based on a belief system. Mixing the two has no benefit, as you have noted. They are adults and choose to remain in the organization with the workers. This can hardly be considered abuse since they choose to remain in the system.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 10, 2016 19:48:50 GMT -5
Hi rational Firstly I may have misled you in stating victims are now 40<70 years old. When assaulted the greater majority would have been minors with some young adults also. I am not sure of how old his eldest victim was Secondly I am not a person who has much to do with the workers only see them a few times a year I am a person who would be associated with with the F&W and like some of the abused believe that a number of workers and friends are good Godly people who can be of great encouragement and helpful
I believe in trying my best to serve God in the way he has planned in following his Son I try to live by Christ's teaching and be led and taught by the Comforter
I am not a GAMBLITE and if it is not in the scriptures I believe in guidance by prayer I feel sorry for those who spend their lifes following the workers
My heart and prayers go out to the abused and those close to them
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Nov 15, 2016 11:29:19 GMT -5
Only 2 weeks left until the devious paedophile and sex offender gets his sentence May justice be done and he receive the same sympathy and lieiance he showed to his victims
Victims - You and yours are in my mind everyday and not forgotten
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