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Post by ellie on Sept 7, 2016 23:17:34 GMT -5
rational Society tends to accept and even respect "some abnormal things". Religion can be a causation of familial dysfunctionality. When this has a dominant effect in a family unit, and a child is sexually abused by a person representing the religion, then relatives' suppression of knowledge of this abuse is a further indication of conformity to control by the religious belief. I suspect there are lots of people who think that a dysfunctional family will have signs along the lines of divorce, nontraditional family structures or perhaps alcoholism or family members with criminal records or something like that. Meanwhile a story that we sometimes fail to see and believe, from the outside, is the one behind the closed doors of the orderly appearing religious family.
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Post by rational on Sept 8, 2016 7:46:33 GMT -5
For a family to be considered dysfunctional there needs to be some abnormal things going on which the family ignore and the members come to think of them as normal. The letter written by JEAN is a good look at a dysfunctional family. Before the worker abuse the internal interaction was far from normal. One could argue that the dysfunction set up the conditions that allowed IH to abuse the young girl. She stated that neither of her parents ever said they loved her and the descriptions did not make her life look like life in a rose garden. IH arrived and showed some interest in her and she was, at least at first, a willing victim seeking the attention and affection. Even after the abuse became known no steps were taken to stop it. Uncanny, good golly gosh! I’m glad she shared her story, Jean’s letter is certainly worth a read. I neglected to point out what I hope is the obvious - No matter what was going on in the family or with the individuals, IH was wrong and guilty of child sexual abuse. I still find it unbelievable that he was not charged with a crime. But it was a different time and support outside the family was not always available.
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Post by mdm on Sept 12, 2016 9:36:15 GMT -5
rational When he accusations or charges are made against a minister of religion for CSA, family members who place the rights of a religious organisation / church above the rights of an individual would potentially distance themselves from the victim. This would protect their status as a faithful, conforming bearer of the flag. The needs of a damaged victim of sexual abuse pales into insignificance when compared to the loss of eternal salvation? This is the tone of blackmail hanging over the faithful and one more reason to enable all to replace faith with reason. That's what happens, well said. With respect to CSA, faith should not get in the way of reason and justice. Faith in God doesn't get in the way when it comes to dealing with CSA. Faith in a religious system does.
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Post by mdm on Sept 12, 2016 9:46:32 GMT -5
Please be gentle and considerate. I believe that whiterabbit was abused by a worker and the prospect of a trial has re-opened old wounds. In addition to myself, I am aware of another victim who is currently struggling to cope. Regards Robert I hope that they feel supported by the fellowship and are not going through this alone.
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Post by Grant on Sept 12, 2016 10:33:20 GMT -5
I would think they would stear clear of the fellowship.
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Post by rational on Sept 12, 2016 19:53:46 GMT -5
That's what happens, well said. With respect to CSA, faith should not get in the way of reason and justice. Faith in God doesn't get in the way when it comes to dealing with CSA. Faith in a religious system does. So your faith remains strong in an all knowing all powerful god doing nothing about children being sexually abused? Do you think the abuse/torture/murder of children is allowed as an object lesson? Some other reason?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2016 15:24:49 GMT -5
Faith in God doesn't get in the way when it comes to dealing with CSA. Faith in a religious system does. So your faith remains strong in an all knowing all powerful god doing nothing about children being sexually abused? Do you think the abuse/torture/murder of children is allowed as an object lesson? Some other reason? This is a question I've often asked of believers but have never received a satisfactory answer. I've actually come to the conclusion that believers don't actually have the answer although I'm happy to be proved wrong. My understanding of the believers' position is that (their) God doesn't interfere in the world except in those situations where He does interfere. It seems that in those situations where He doesn't interfere in the world to prevent evil, it's not that He can't interfere, or that he doesn't interfere for no good reason, it's just that He chooses not to interfere for reasons which no one can quite fathom. All part of the mystery of God. Its important to remember that (according to believers) God does interfere in the world sometimes. At times He interferes to cure ailments, or to send His messengers across one's path, or to do some good deed which makes the recipient have (even more) faith in Him. But why He interferes to do some good deeds but stands idly by doing nothing to prevent evils such as CSA, famine, holocausts and terror attacks, no one seems to know. It could be that actually He is interfering to prevent all sorts of evils all of the time and we just aren't aware of this. (The invisible interferer) In which case the question becomes one of why does He interfere to prevent some evils and not others? Could it be that He actually does interfere to prevent most evils and the ones that we hear of are merely that small percentage which He doesn't get around to preventing? In which case the question becomes one of why does he interfere to prevent most evils but not all? Perhaps God is finite and can only do so much in any period of time? It all seems a bit of a mystery to be sure. There are other views of course. It could be that God doesn't have the power to interfere in the world at all and that those situations where we believe He has interfered to to some Godly good deed are just as a case of us being mistaken and what we deem to be interference by God has some other, more rational, explanation. Or it could be that God does have the power to interfere but He just doesn't care enough to bother. Perhaps God isn't good after all. Or it could be that God is blind and has actually no idea what evils are going on in which case we really can't blame Him for His noninterference. There certainly seem to be more questions than answers where God is concerned. I'm pretty sure you'll have your own explanations. Perhaps maja will have hers. Matt10
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Post by rational on Sept 13, 2016 19:13:33 GMT -5
So your faith remains strong in an all knowing all powerful god doing nothing about children being sexually abused? Do you think the abuse/torture/murder of children is allowed as an object lesson? Some other reason? This is a question I've often asked of believers but have never received a satisfactory answer. I've actually come to the conclusion that believers don't actually have the answer although I'm happy to be proved wrong. My understanding of the believers' position is that (their) God doesn't interfere in the world except in those situations where He does interfere. It seems that in those situations where He doesn't interfere in the world to prevent evil, it's not that He can't interfere, or that he doesn't interfere for no good reason, it's just that He chooses not to interfere for reasons which no one can quite fathom. All part of the mystery of God. Its important to remember that (according to believers) God does interfere in the world sometimes. At times He interferes to cure ailments, or to send His messengers across one's path, or to do some good deed which makes the recipient have (even more) faith in Him. But why He interferes to do some good deeds but stands idly by doing nothing to prevent evils such as CSA, famine, holocausts and terror attacks, no one seems to know. It could be that actually He is interfering to prevent all sorts of evils all of the time and we just aren't aware of this. (The invisible interferer) In which case the question becomes one of why does He interfere to prevent some evils and not others? Could it be that He actually does interfere to prevent most evils and the ones that we hear of are merely that small percentage which He doesn't get around to preventing? In which case the question becomes one of why does he interfere to prevent most evils but not all? Perhaps God is finite and can only do so much in any period of time? It all seems a bit of a mystery to be sure. There are other views of course. It could be that God doesn't have the power to interfere in the world at all and that those situations where we believe He has interfered to to some Godly good deed are just as a case of us being mistaken and what we deem to be interference by God has some other, more rational, explanation. Or it could be that God does have the power to interfere but He just doesn't care enough to bother. Perhaps God isn't good after all. Or it could be that God is blind and has actually no idea what evils are going on in which case we really can't blame Him for His noninterference. There certainly seem to be more questions than answers where God is concerned. I'm pretty sure you'll have your own explanations. Perhaps maja will have hers. Matt10 I was trying to understand why a person would put there faith in an entity that allowed such behavior as child abuse. I thought perhaps there was an explanation for the behavior.
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Post by mdm on Sept 15, 2016 13:16:41 GMT -5
This is a question I've often asked of believers but have never received a satisfactory answer. I've actually come to the conclusion that believers don't actually have the answer although I'm happy to be proved wrong. My understanding of the believers' position is that (their) God doesn't interfere in the world except in those situations where He does interfere. It seems that in those situations where He doesn't interfere in the world to prevent evil, it's not that He can't interfere, or that he doesn't interfere for no good reason, it's just that He chooses not to interfere for reasons which no one can quite fathom. All part of the mystery of God. Its important to remember that (according to believers) God does interfere in the world sometimes. At times He interferes to cure ailments, or to send His messengers across one's path, or to do some good deed which makes the recipient have (even more) faith in Him. But why He interferes to do some good deeds but stands idly by doing nothing to prevent evils such as CSA, famine, holocausts and terror attacks, no one seems to know. It could be that actually He is interfering to prevent all sorts of evils all of the time and we just aren't aware of this. (The invisible interferer) In which case the question becomes one of why does He interfere to prevent some evils and not others? Could it be that He actually does interfere to prevent most evils and the ones that we hear of are merely that small percentage which He doesn't get around to preventing? In which case the question becomes one of why does he interfere to prevent most evils but not all? Perhaps God is finite and can only do so much in any period of time? It all seems a bit of a mystery to be sure. There are other views of course. It could be that God doesn't have the power to interfere in the world at all and that those situations where we believe He has interfered to to some Godly good deed are just as a case of us being mistaken and what we deem to be interference by God has some other, more rational, explanation. Or it could be that God does have the power to interfere but He just doesn't care enough to bother. Perhaps God isn't good after all. Or it could be that God is blind and has actually no idea what evils are going on in which case we really can't blame Him for His noninterference. There certainly seem to be more questions than answers where God is concerned. I'm pretty sure you'll have your own explanations. Perhaps maja will have hers. Matt10 I was trying to understand why a person would put there faith in an entity that allowed such behavior as child abuse. I thought perhaps there was an explanation for the behavior. It's funny you would ask someone to justify the behavior of someone you don't believe exists. If you have a problem with God, you should talk to Him, not to me.
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Post by rational on Sept 15, 2016 14:28:46 GMT -5
I was trying to understand why a person would put there faith in an entity that allowed such behavior as child abuse. I thought perhaps there was an explanation for the behavior. It's funny you would ask someone to justify the behavior of someone you don't believe exists. If you have a problem with God, you should talk to Him, not to me. Ah, I can see how my wording confused the issue. The behavior I was wondering about was a person having faith in an entity that permitted such things to happen.
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Post by mdm on Sept 15, 2016 15:21:37 GMT -5
It's funny you would ask someone to justify the behavior of someone you don't believe exists. If you have a problem with God, you should talk to Him, not to me. Ah, I can see how my wording confused the issue. The behavior I was wondering about was a person having faith in an entity that permitted such things to happen. I am still confused. Are you saying: an entity created this world evil is permitted to happen in this world therefore no one should believe in this entity Or, are you saying: evil is permitted to happen in this world an entity woul not create the world where evil is allowed to happen therefore no one should believe that an entity created the world
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Post by joanna on Sept 15, 2016 19:36:10 GMT -5
@matt10 I appreciated your comment.
Either the Christian's Hebrew God is benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent or he is not. All we have to do is consider as you have, that a god who personally assists some, whilst ignoring the extreme suffering of others, is a man made entity who possesses chameleon qualities aligned to the individual's perception of their god.
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Post by rational on Sept 16, 2016 20:17:23 GMT -5
Ah, I can see how my wording confused the issue. The behavior I was wondering about was a person having faith in an entity that permitted such things to happen. I am still confused. Are you saying: an entity created this world evil is permitted to happen in this world therefore no one should believe in this entity No, this is not what I am saying. an entity created this world The entity is generally considered to be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. The same entity allows evil to happen in this world. therefore how can anyone revere/worship this entity? Imagine a law enforcement officer who has the knowledge of a child being molested/tortured/abused. The officer also the power to stop that activity. The officer allows the activity to continue unchecked. A shining example of a law enforcement officer?
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Post by mdm on Sept 17, 2016 11:10:17 GMT -5
I am still confused. Are you saying: an entity created this world evil is permitted to happen in this world therefore no one should believe in this entity No, this is not what I am saying. an entity created this world The entity is generally considered to be all powerful, all knowing, and all loving. The same entity allows evil to happen in this world. therefore how can anyone revere/worship this entity? Imagine a law enforcement officer who has the knowledge of a child being molested/tortured/abused. The officer also the power to stop that activity. The officer allows the activity to continue unchecked. A shining example of a law enforcement officer? True reverence/worship presupposes intimate knowledge of and relationship with God. It is through knowledge of and relationship with God that your question is answered and that one can even worship Him. If you have a problem with me worshiping God, all I can say is: that is your problem and I am not indebted to you in any way. I am not harming you or anyone else with my worship of God. In fact, true "religion" according to the Bible is to take care of the poor, the destitute, the downtrodden, the outcast. Therefore, this world can only gain by true religion as taught in the Bible. If, on the other hand, you have a problem with God, talk to Him.
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Post by rational on Sept 17, 2016 19:03:57 GMT -5
True reverence/worship presupposes intimate knowledge of and relationship with God. It is through knowledge of and relationship with God that your question is answered and that one can even worship Him. I see. So you can overlook the fact that an omnipotent omniscience being condones the sexual abuse of children because you have intimate knowledge and a relationship with this entity. Imagine a spouse using that logic as a reason why they did not stop/report the sexual abuse of a child. Imagine the outrage if an overseer said that because of the work someone had done and the relationship the overseer had with the abuser that they would not report the abuse but would just let it go. I do not have a problem with any of your beliefs. I was just trying to understand how you justified condoning child abuse. Perhaps not. But there are those believers who feel that all is in god's hands and are willing to overlook the actions of those who they consider to be god's true servants and forgive them when they repent or say they are sorry and that god is leading them away from their sin(s).In theory many things are beneficial and good for the people. In practice it is a different story. As part of the true "religion", according to the Bible, god cares for the sick and downtrodden. I believe that is taught in the bible. Seems like I remember a verse that goes something like: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. which confirms that god is defined as being aware of all that goes on, knows about the sparrows, knows the details of each person, yet there is little to show that people are valued above sparrows. People are outraged when individuals who knew about cases of abuse did nothing to expose/stop the abuse. Yet, according to the bible, god knows about the child abuse and there is no evidence that any action was taken to even mitigate the abuse. Millennia go by with many claims of god speaking to people. So far there has not been a single verifiable case of god speaking to anyone. As an atheist I can hardly have a problem with god. I am questioning the behavior of believers that result from a belief in god, perhaps a god who is in control. The answer "It's god's will" does not solve anything.
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Post by mdm on Sept 17, 2016 21:26:05 GMT -5
True reverence/worship presupposes intimate knowledge of and relationship with God. It is through knowledge of and relationship with God that your question is answered and that one can even worship Him. I see. So you can overlook the fact that an omnipotent omniscience being condones the sexual abuse of children because you have intimate knowledge and a relationship with this entity. Imagine a spouse using that logic as a reason why they did not stop/report the sexual abuse of a child. Imagine the outrage if an overseer said that because of the work someone had done and the relationship the overseer had with the abuser that they would not report the abuse but would just let it go. I do not have a problem with any of your beliefs. I was just trying to understand how you justified condoning child abuse. Perhaps not. But there are those believers who feel that all is in god's hands and are willing to overlook the actions of those who they consider to be god's true servants and forgive them when they repent or say they are sorry and that god is leading them away from their sin(s).In theory many things are beneficial and good for the people. In practice it is a different story. As part of the true "religion", according to the Bible, god cares for the sick and downtrodden. I believe that is taught in the bible. Seems like I remember a verse that goes something like: Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. which confirms that god is defined as being aware of all that goes on, knows about the sparrows, knows the details of each person, yet there is little to show that people are valued above sparrows. People are outraged when individuals who knew about cases of abuse did nothing to expose/stop the abuse. Yet, according to the bible, god knows about the child abuse and there is no evidence that any action was taken to even mitigate the abuse. Millennia go by with many claims of god speaking to people. So far there has not been a single verifiable case of god speaking to anyone. As an atheist I can hardly have a problem with god. I am questioning the behavior of believers that result from a belief in god, perhaps a god who is in control. The answer "It's god's will" does not solve anything. That is so funny. Arguing about someone you don't even believe in!? Anyway, I didn't read past the first sentence. I'll go back to ignoring your posts, as they are usually irrelevant to the focus of this board.
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Post by rational on Sept 17, 2016 22:40:12 GMT -5
That is so funny. Arguing about someone you don't even believe in!? I can see you didn't read much. The discussion is not about god but about people who believe in god and justify their belief by giving attributes to god that make worshiping seem like an ethical activity.I read every word you wrote. But then, I like to consider different points of view.Sounds like a good idea for you. I mean, questioning the behavior of an entity you worship or pointing out that when true believers know about children being sexually abused and ignore it they are just following the example set by the god they serve should not raise any moral questions or cause cognitive dissonance. Besides, any discussion of god would be difficult to relate to the focus of this board. I can't comment much on the rules of female hair style or the appropriate décolletage for any occasion.
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Post by whiterabbit on Sept 27, 2016 7:53:06 GMT -5
Court case next week .What of the abused person JUST FORGOTTEN ABOUT.
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Post by rational on Sept 27, 2016 10:07:10 GMT -5
Court case next week .What of the abused person JUST FORGOTTEN ABOUT. Can't they show up at the trial?
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Post by rjkee on Sept 28, 2016 4:56:44 GMT -5
Yes I would be permitted to attend court. But the reality is that I'm barely able to function, heavily medicated and off work. My 82 year old mum has been asked to give details for her availability to appear at any future hearings. She has just recovered from a serious illness that required hospitalisation, and is awaiting two surgical operations. Understandably, she's very distressed. This may all be very irrational but it's the reality.
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Post by withlove on Sept 28, 2016 6:57:02 GMT -5
Yes I would be permitted to attend court. But the reality is that I'm barely able to function, heavily medicated and off work. My 82 year old mum has been asked to give details for her availability to appear at any future hearings. She has just recovered from a serious illness that required hospitalisation, and is awaiting two surgical operations. Understandably, she's very distressed. This may all be very irrational but it's the reality. That sounds really difficult. I hope you can find some rest and healing. Maybe some here can think of some ways to manage emotional pain. I see see nothing irrational. Maybe some can think of helpful resources for either/both of you.
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Post by rjkee on Sept 28, 2016 7:21:01 GMT -5
Thank you very much for your supportive message. I'm not alone. I'm aware of three other victims that are struggling badly at present. Perhaps the prospect of a trial has reopened old wounds. Incidentally, despite knowing of many other victims, I was previously unaware of two out of the three. It makes me wonder how many more are out there. By the way, as far as I'm aware, I am the only victim that has come forward to the police and the case is based on my evidence alone.
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Post by ellie on Sept 28, 2016 9:04:32 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Sept 28, 2016 9:31:16 GMT -5
Yes I would be permitted to attend court. But the reality is that I'm barely able to function, heavily medicated and off work. My 82 year old mum has been asked to give details for her availability to appear at any future hearings. She has just recovered from a serious illness that required hospitalisation, and is awaiting two surgical operations. Understandably, she's very distressed. This may all be very irrational but it's the reality. Sounds like your situation would make it difficult.
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Post by LITTLEPADDY on Sept 28, 2016 13:49:38 GMT -5
My heart goes out to you and yours at this trying time So much would have been avoided and less victims if it had been dealt with properly at the start I am aware of some of his victims North & South of the border and I am aware of their suffering & despair at this time Old wounds reopened that years have caused to fester I believe he has victims outside of Ireland. The way his victims,that still go to meetings are treated is nothing but despicable and a down right disgrace. I hold you in admiration,RJKEE, for having the courage to continue to fight despite all odds There are many broken hearts and nervous wrecks today because of his actions. Justice can't be done but hopefully both he and those in "authority" who guarded him from the Police by not reporting him will now have to stand up and no longer hide in the long grass. My thoughts and prayers are with each one of his victims and their families at this time
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Post by whiterabbit on Sept 29, 2016 11:19:12 GMT -5
With regard to the above comments it is worth noting that some victims abuse happened in another jurisdiction so we may be heading for court there.As above sad it was not dealt with properly.
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Post by whiterabbit on Oct 3, 2016 16:00:03 GMT -5
As the above post by LITTLE PADDY says the way the abused have been treated is DESPICABLE AND A DISGRACE, to think LOVE IS THE KINGDOMS BANNER?
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Post by whiterabbit on Oct 5, 2016 12:45:53 GMT -5
This is a diffucult week for those victims abused and IGNORED by the workers . but court case tomorrow and the ABUSER has to face up to what he done and lives he RUINED.
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