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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2013 16:57:46 GMT -5
Perfection now is denoted as without flaw. Biblical usage is often a mite different meaning "whole and complete.". Does not that meaning describe those with absolute belief, trust in Yahu'shuah, their God-savior? It does to me. May each one seek the whole complete work of The Holy Spirit known by His fruit. As an apple that is described as a perfect apple whole and complete so is The Fruit of The Spirit, not to the extent there could not be more of any of those qualities, rather they are all found in it.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 20, 2013 18:43:37 GMT -5
Perfection now is denoted as without flaw. Biblical usage is often a mite different meaning "whole and complete.". Does not that meaning describe those with absolute belief, trust in Yahu'shuah, their God-savior? It does to me. May each one seek the whole complete work of The Holy Spirit known by His fruit. As an apple that is described as a perfect apple whole and complete so is The Fruit of The Spirit, not to the extent there could not be more of any of those qualities, rather they are all found in it. Here is John Wesley's definition. But whom then do you mean by 'one that is perfect?' We mean one in whom is 'the mind which was in Christ,' and who so 'walketh as Christ also walked;' a man 'that hath clean hands and a pure heart,' or that is 'cleansed from all filthiness of flesh and spirit;' one in whom is 'no occasion of stumbling,' and who, accordingly, 'does not commit sin.' To declare this a little more particularly: We understand by that scriptural expression, 'a perfect man,' one in whom God hath fulfilled his faithful word, 'From all your filthiness and from all your idols I will cleanse you: I will also save you from all your uncleannesses.' We understand hereby, one whom God lath 'sanctified throughout in body, soul, and spirit;' one who 'walketh in the light as He is in the light, in whom is no darkness at all; the blood of Jesus Christ his Son having cleansed him from all sin.'
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Post by sharonw on Feb 20, 2013 19:28:18 GMT -5
I must say that I am pleased to read that part of Ron's sermon, as I have never heard any worker try to be specific about the salvation process. Just recently, I did hear a sort of attempt along these lines and this is how it went : we are redeemed by the blood of Christ and then we attempt to live a life that will win us salvation at the end - we won't know whether or not we have salvation till the judgement. Many will miss out because they haven't done enough. We don't hear doctrine expounded as explicity as was the case to the older generation (45-50 +) so it is hard to say what the doctrine is by listening, but I believe much is passed down from parents. The best way is to discuss it with folks in a comfortable setting, then you get a sense of what is truly believed. A common thread is that we will not know about our salvation till the judgement day. edited to add : I don't know if this a regional thing, but it is certainly true for my state. It's pretty much the same in this area...one overseer pressed to admit or say that he believed that all who seek salvation would end up in the workers' mtgs. He went around Robinhood's barn to try and NOT say that, but he ended up saying it, nevertheless. He also said he didn't preach legalism, but then when we were talking about girls and women with long hair and that after a girl become s women she is to put that long hair up on her head and make it look like she i shorn.....I mentioned that IF a man was "turned on" by a woman with long hair that was up, he thinks that he'd sure like to pull ther pins and barettes oout and get his fingers into her hair....this over seer repudiated what I said with a thing he thought he'd gotten from some of the young ladies working that men were worse about playing with their hair or making sexy comments about their hair when the hair was down, but when they put up their hair it wasn't a problem! As to Ron Thomke's sermon...I heard him speak many times and he is great about taking one word out of a verse. or as in the posted sermon, a word or two and making a whole sermon on it, whether it was according to Hoyle or not.
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Post by sharonw on Feb 20, 2013 19:44:40 GMT -5
There is a certain sound logic behind a works-necessity (sanctification) philosophy. The age-old argument against grace-only is the absence of necessary works. Grace-only argues that you will be so happy with your saved status that you will automatically do the works and no saved person will do otherwise. Regardless, if you argue that it is grace-only, then works really aren't necessary.....it's difficult to see how you can have it both ways. The idea of doing your all (which is not enough) and leaving the rest up to grace is clearly a concept I understood to be common among F&Ws when I was growing up, and I still hear the idea expressed from time to time in fellowship testimonies. It's easy to see though how the point of salvation could get muddied up in that concept. Actually, it seems according to what we read in Rev. that we will be judged according to our deeds that are recorded in the "deeds' book", The Lamb's Book of Life will be there as well and I have come to understand that the reason the "Lamb's Book of Life" being at the Judgment Day is NOT to see who is saved, but to see IF a person facing the Just Judge did believe in Jesus Christ, then their judgment is solely on their deeds and thus their rewards come to them....they will have eternal life because their names are in the Lamb's Book of Life, but their rewards are judged out of the books of works or deeds. Our works are mentioned like this: Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. All our deeds are as filthy rags......but by seeking Him first or seeking the kingdeom of God first, then "His righteousness" will be given to us.... No way, we can put God in debt to us, no matter how hard we try to do what is right. Otherwords, when we seek to be doing right it is because we've been given such a wonder gift, eternal life. Kind of like Jesus asked his host one day when his host complained about the "sort" of woman who was bathing Jesus' feet etc. But Jesus told him a story about 2 different people who had transgressed against their boss or owner, one having some wrongs and the other having a horrible amount of wrongs.....and Jesus asked His host which one would love their boss or owner the most....His host said well, the one who was forgiven the most. Surely as we come to face all ours sins and bring ourselves before the Lord and we compare all of our sins against His pureness and then He simply asks that we believe in Him. What a relief! What a wonderful forgiver! What a gift of life! And those of us who have been forgiven so very much, we feel such love in our hearts for our Saviour that we can't find enough good deeds to do! Something of that sort, anyway!
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Post by sharonw on Feb 20, 2013 19:55:35 GMT -5
I definitely agree with your last statement, that it's commonly thought we will not know about our salvation, for certain, until the judgement day. But all of that fits with the idea of "the second work of grace" which is where those ideas began. Over time, I think the f&w doctrine has become somewhat fuzzier over time, as they rely excessively on an oral tradition. Having listened to the workers for over 50 years, I would say that what we hear in this area has grown increasingly fuzzy--and I think you are right about 'oral tradition' being the cause. No one attending our gospel meetings over the last few years would have a clue about how one is saved--the topic hasn't come up. We recently did hear how we aren't saved, however. I find that true in this area...I believe that the "warnists" flavor of workership is the way to go these days...I've been surprised at the young workers starting out and how little some of them know about the bible...most will admit to when they were not in the work, they'd start reading about 20 mins. before time to go to mtg. to find a verse they can speak about without looking plumb dumb. I find that the instructions given to young professees lack a lot, they have no idea hardly to go about "professing", except what they see in their home mtgs. and convs. and they really don't ever pay much attention to that until they profess themselves...point in question, a pair of twins related to me were the biggest sleepers in any mtg. they be asleep before the prayer time came in the mtgs. on Sun and during testimony time and even if workers were there, those twins would have squirmed around to where they found themselves draped in their seats and sometimes even snoring a bit. Well, they knew a couple of children their age had professed in an earlier conv. so they talked it over and decided they would profess at the last conv. in the area. They mentioned it in fromt of someone in the family who advised them they weren't ready to profess because they hadn't learned how to stay awake in the mtgs. Well, they professed any way. When they came home they begin to give their little testimonies and they stayed awake...something happened there...but it probably is that they finally had a part in the mtgs. and it meant more to them...but they still had not been taught how to get ready for the mtgs. And as they got older and into high school, then college...they found themselves struggling to haves omething for the mtg. I never really remembered where I was taught to read my bible at least every morning and every night and pray the same way and anhy other time I felt the need. I'm thankful for that teaching......I know that my Gram was raised a strict Baptist and lots I was taught was from her experiences growing up.....I know there were times when I kneeled to pray I'd go to sleep and wake up in a little while except one night when I woke up about 5 a.m. and would have had the alarm going off at 5:30am....if that happened now, I think the neighbors might have to come and help get me up!
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Post by quizzer on Feb 21, 2013 10:58:09 GMT -5
I must say that I am pleased to read that part of Ron's sermon, as I have never heard any worker try to be specific about the salvation process. Just recently, I did hear a sort of attempt along these lines and this is how it went : we are redeemed by the blood of Christ and then we attempt to live a life that will win us salvation at the end - we won't know whether or not we have salvation till the judgement. Many will miss out because they haven't done enough. We don't hear doctrine expounded as explicity as was the case to the older generation (45-50 +) so it is hard to say what the doctrine is by listening, but I believe much is passed down from parents. The best way is to discuss it with folks in a comfortable setting, then you get a sense of what is truly believed. A common thread is that we will not know about our salvation till the judgement day. edited to add : I don't know if this a regional thing, but it is certainly true for my state. It's pretty much the same in this area...one overseer pressed to admit or say that he believed that all who seek salvation would end up in the workers' mtgs. He went around Robinhood's barn to try and NOT say that, but he ended up saying it, nevertheless. He also said he didn't preach legalism, but then when we were talking about girls and women with long hair and that after a girl become s women she is to put that long hair up on her head and make it look like she i shorn.....I mentioned that IF a man was "turned on" by a woman with long hair that was up, he thinks that he'd sure like to pull ther pins and barettes oout and get his fingers into her hair....this over seer repudiated what I said with a thing he thought he'd gotten from some of the young ladies working that men were worse about playing with their hair or making sexy comments about their hair when the hair was down, but when they put up their hair it wasn't a problem! As to Ron Thomke's sermon...I heard him speak many times and he is great about taking one word out of a verse. or as in the posted sermon, a word or two and making a whole sermon on it, whether it was according to Hoyle or not. Aren't those overseers such nice guys - to have strong opinions about stuff they have no clue about? I say, let them grow out as much hair on their head as they can, and be responsible for shampooing, conditioning, and styling it. Let them be the ones that everyone looks at in a funny way. Six months, six years of this treatment, and we'll see if those same overseers are even in the meetings. They need some of the treatment they've given women and girls for many, many years. I'm betting they're not man enough to take their own medicine.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2013 12:35:42 GMT -5
What, in John Wesley's day and belief system, much legalism and hypocrisy was prevalent, was it not? Could not the same source of that leaven still prevail in "Christian" doctrine? it is so simple to indoctrinate people as proven over and over by political and religious leaders have proven throughout ages. The answer for me is the individual relationship that The Son made possible wit The Father and each who are born again with the fruit of the Spirit, NOT of mere human effort except for asking, seeking, and knocking and the resulting "receiving, finding, and having opened!". To me, biblical "perfection," is as I previously explained. Yet I wish to live in peace with all men in as much as is possible. I have yet to meet any man as your quote describes which iss why I asked sought and knocked for more understanding to reach what I've I've received found had opened. the Lord should be each persons absolute, not any man, system nor group of men, even if they might agree upon certain points.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 21, 2013 19:55:16 GMT -5
What, in John Wesley's day and belief system, much legalism and hypocrisy was prevalent, was it not? Could not the same source of that leaven still prevail in "Christian" doctrine? it is so simple to indoctrinate people as proven over and over by political and religious leaders have proven throughout ages. The answer for me is the individual relationship that The Son made possible wit The Father and each who are born again with the fruit of the Spirit, NOT of mere human effort except for asking, seeking, and knocking and the resulting "receiving, finding, and having opened!". To me, biblical "perfection," is as I previously explained. Yet I wish to live in peace with all men in as much as is possible. I have yet to meet any man as your quote describes which iss why I asked sought and knocked for more understanding to reach what I've I've received found had opened. the Lord should be each persons absolute, not any man, system nor group of men, even if they might agree upon certain points. Dennis, I don't look to any particular man to have all the answers. I think 'Christian Perfection' is a well thought out work, and a few quotes don't do it justice. Actually, Wesley went through in later years and annotated his own work, as he thought it too hard or rigid in many places. The flaw is possibly too much emphasis on holiness at the expense of true compassion for our fellow man, and many a profound work is performed in love by those who might not have all the spit and polish that holiness seems to strive for. But I like the general idea of spiritual progress through life, and of laying aside various weights that are impediments in attaining our potential in terms of acts of love. Holiness doctrine is not the final answer, but a part of the solution as to how best to live out the Christ within. I have always enjoyed the kind of worker preaching which I can relate back to my own life in terms of personal and spiritual growth, and some of the struggles I have had. I also have found inspiration in those men and women who broke the mould in which they were cast. The brothers Wesley were Church of England ministers who thought about their lives and roles a little more deeply, and ultimately what they wrote and thought inspired the branch of Methodism. The church has seemed to find renewal and growth through singular men like Wesley.
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Post by irvinegrey on Feb 22, 2013 7:11:58 GMT -5
As a Faith Mission pilgrim William Irvine would have subscribed to the idea of a 'second blessing' and would have preached this as his fellow FM pilgrims did. Certainly this idea of holiness, second blessing preaching was very much part of the FM and certainly was up until quite recently. (Still is in many quarters)
During my research into the history of the movement I was never able to unearth evidence that Irvine and his band of new workers continued to perpetuate this doctrine. This I find rather odd in that most of the early workers came from a Methodist background.
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Post by What Hat on Feb 22, 2013 9:41:28 GMT -5
As a Faith Mission pilgrim William Irvine would have subscribed to the idea of a 'second blessing' and would have preached this as his fellow FM pilgrims did. Certainly this idea of holiness, second blessing preaching was very much part of the FM and certainly was up until quite recently. (Still is in many quarters) During my research into the history of the movement I was never able to unearth evidence that Irvine and his band of new workers continued to perpetuate this doctrine. This I find rather odd in that most of the early workers came from a Methodist background. Have you read the worker quotes on this thread?
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Post by Persona non grata on Feb 22, 2013 13:29:59 GMT -5
what,
I've really appreciated your posts and I hope you'll publish more. This is top quality, well presented, objective, unbiased and interesting.
Thank you.
PNG
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Post by What Hat on Feb 22, 2013 21:06:26 GMT -5
what, I've really appreciated your posts and I hope you'll publish more. This is top quality, well presented, objective, unbiased and interesting. Thank you. PNG Thanks, I appreciate that. I follow my own muse in thinking and writing so in some ways I'm surprised and always pleased when a few follow along.
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