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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 4, 2013 22:01:59 GMT -5
Time for us to start this book discussion about The Shack. First off, I am curious as to how many people read the book, but didn't read any on-line reviews about it? I read it first a few years back, and then read it again for this discussion. This time I read the various reviews about it, and was quite surprised at how many Christians felt threatened by a work of fiction. Mainly, I think they were threatened not because of what was written, but by the immense popularity of the book with such a cross section of people both within and without of organized religion Originally written as a story for his kids: The Shack is the unlikeliest of success stories. The first and only book written by a salesman from Oregon, it was never supposed to be published. William P. Young wrote the tale for the benefit of his children and after its completion in 2005, it was copied and bound at Kinko's in time for him to give it to his children for Christmas.
Shortly after he completed the book, Young showed the manuscript to Wayne Jacobsen, a former pastor who had begun a small publishing company. After the manuscript was rejected by other publishers, Jacobsen and his co-publisher Brad Cummings decided to publish it themselves under the banner of Windblown Media.
The three men, with only a $300 marketing budget at their disposal, began a word-of-mouth campaign to let people know about the book. The rest, as they say, is history.So....... just opening this up for general discussion, and lets start by finding out how many want to participate, and how many people have completed the book. If people are still reading, we can focus on the early parts of the book, but if everyone has read it through, we can jump into comments and discussion on any parts of the book that everyone wishes. I personally really enjoyed the book, although there were some parts that challenged my thoughts on being in the presence of God..... For those folks who read here but aren't registered, you are allowed to participate in this section of the board, so feel free to contribute to the discussion!
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 4, 2013 22:08:15 GMT -5
I have read it! It was a couple years back, though. I am only skimming it a second time through.
I am disturbed by the book, but not by what may be a sacrilegious portrayal of God. I found the three personalities of God quite pleasing.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 5, 2013 11:08:04 GMT -5
I'm mostly through it, so I can't say too much yet. I found the personifications of God to be interesting, and in some ways not unlike those found in movies like Oh God, Bruce Almighty, and It's a Wonderful Life. (Angels in the last one.) There is an attempt to blend in the Trinity doctrine, and the result is a bit of a botch up (as far as the Trinity is concerned). I would have just dropped the attempt to have a Trinity, since God Himself assumes a new very non-Trinitarian personification in this book. I'm amazed at how popular this book became. It is now an all-time best seller, not just of Christian books, but of all books.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 5, 2013 12:51:26 GMT -5
As I mentioned, when I first read it I didn't read anything about it, and so had no pre-conceived thoughts to interfere with my reading.
On the first reading, I found it to be very uplifting as it chronicles a man's attempt to reconcile the loss of a child with his understanding of God. In many ways it was a reflection of my journey in understanding how God works in our lives, and my own reconciliation to God in my life.
I too had blamed God for the 'bad things' that happened in my life.
One thing to remember is that this IS a work of fiction. As originally written, it was for kids to read. Now that it is such a popular book, the critics are many, and most of them because of their affiliation with 'organized' religion. I view it as one man's personal understanding of God, and through that understanding of God, how a relationship and understanding of how Jesus and the Holy Spirit work in our lives.
For me personally, this is pretty much how I have worked through my relationship with God. First one aspect and then incorporating and understanding how God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus all interact in my life.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 6, 2013 0:46:47 GMT -5
My post probably reads more negatively than I intended. I like the book, but I'll have more to say when I finish it. I'm not a Trinitarian myself, so if he's off a bit on that one it's of little concern to me.
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Post by ScholarGal on Jan 6, 2013 22:42:24 GMT -5
I've read the book twice in the last 4 years. The first time, I don't think I had ever heard of it. I just picked it up from a stack of books and figured it looked different than the cat mysteries in the pile. I skimmed the back cover and read through the book in a few hours.
A few months after reading it the first time, someone mentioned the book and I looked at some of the online reviews. I was surprised by some of the reviewers' negative reactions to the personifications/personalities of God. I read the book mostly as an allegory or parable.
I was surprised when someone mentioned that the book was a good picture of the Trinity--I think many readers will see aspects of their own understanding of the Trinity, but I don't think it will sway someone toward believing or denying the Trinity doctrine. The allegory of the story doesn't fully match a Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian view.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 7, 2013 22:30:18 GMT -5
I have read it! It was a couple years back, though. I am only skimming it a second time through. I am disturbed by the book, but not by what may be a sacrilegious portrayal of God. I found the three personalities of God quite pleasing. I have been waiting to hear what you found so disturbing about the book.......
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Post by slowtosee on Jan 8, 2013 11:35:15 GMT -5
Read the book a few years ago, so don't fully qualify to participate, as not "fresh" on my mind, feeble as that is. It was somewhat challenging to read of God as a female, but not a big deal. In discussion with a few other believers some years ago, they were VERY offended by the portrayal of God as a female, and not caucasian , a t that! I didn't think author had any agenda at all to promote the trinity, but was writing it with his understanding ,probably presuming that most believers believe the godhead, as three "persons". I have been somewhat surprised at the harsh and severe criticism of the book by other believers. For myself, it increased my respect of God- being so GREAT that he can relate and comfort those of us , like the author and myself and.. , who might have an "unorthodox" view or understanding , even maybe an incorrect one, and in spite of all that, reaches down in his love and compassion for his creation , and desires and wants a voluntary love relationship with his creation. Alvin
edit: fixed unregistered post
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Post by Scott Ross on Jan 9, 2013 11:34:21 GMT -5
I am kind of wating for some other folks to chime in with their thoughts before posting more of mine.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 9, 2013 16:10:19 GMT -5
I don't mean to break into the discussion of this book as I haven't read it.
However, I wanted to post this item.
Some of you may have read The Family, by a journalist exposing the shadowy religious group on secretly working behind the scenes on Capital Hill
the Church & State newspaper stated he was given an AU award for his work.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 9, 2013 20:08:37 GMT -5
It was somewhat challenging to read of God as a female, but not a big deal. In discussion with a few other believers some years ago, they were VERY offended by the portrayal of God as a female, and not caucasian , a t that! There are maternal images of God in the scripture. Here's one: By the Almighty, who shall bless thee with blessings of heaven above, blessings of the deep that lieth under, blessings of the breasts, and of the womb. --Genesis 49:25
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2013 18:35:09 GMT -5
As a side note: This book takes place in my home stomping grounds in Oregon. Been to Wallowa Lake often. He even describes driving through La Grande, where I spent my growing-up years.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2013 18:40:54 GMT -5
some quotes i found interesting:
in response to Mack asking why God is portrayed as a Father in the Bible: "Let me say for now that we knew once the Creation was broken, true fathering would be much more lacking than mothering."
about freedom of choice: "Does freedom mean that you are allowed to do whatever you want to do? Or we could talk about all the limiting influences in your life that actively work against your freedom. Your family genetic heritage, your specific DNA, your metabolic uniqueness, the quantum stuff that is going on at a subatomic level where only I am the always-present observer."
"Humans have a great capacity for declaring something good or evil, without truly knowing."
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 10, 2013 18:47:39 GMT -5
I have read it! It was a couple years back, though. I am only skimming it a second time through. I am disturbed by the book, but not by what may be a sacrilegious portrayal of God. I found the three personalities of God quite pleasing. I have been waiting to hear what you found so disturbing about the book....... It does not do justice to the true pain of losing a loved one in so horrible a manner. God is not held accountable after all, he is let off the hook too easily and really without any good explanation. I also found it a bit sappy...all that lovey-dovey stuff is not very manly, so it's a good thing the Father didn't personify as a guy. The message seems to be, "see how much I love you? so don't be mad when I let evil win."
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Post by What Hat on Jan 13, 2013 12:05:26 GMT -5
As a side note: This book takes place in my home stomping grounds in Oregon. Been to Wallowa Lake often. He even describes driving through La Grande, where I spent my growing-up years. Just last year we drove up the Columbia from Portland with our son and daughter-in-law and stopped at the Multnomah Falls. Beautiful country.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 13, 2013 12:10:47 GMT -5
I have been waiting to hear what you found so disturbing about the book....... It does not do justice to the true pain of losing a loved one in so horrible a manner. God is not held accountable after all, he is let off the hook too easily and really without any good explanation. I also found it a bit sappy...all that lovey-dovey stuff is not very manly, so it's a good thing the Father didn't personify as a guy. The message seems to be, "see how much I love you? so don't be mad when I let evil win." You didn't really expect any answers did you? I've never heard anyone say that a book such as this changed their life. I did very much like the work, because I see it as purely a product of the imagination. I also like to consider the things that the author is considering. What are God and Jesus really like? What will heaven be like? And so on. One of the interesting decisions made by the writer is to make heaven contiguous with our present reality. We sometimes think of heaven as a place of spirits, of beings or souls floating around in space unbounded by the physicality of our ordinary existence. Yet the "heaven" described in The Shack, or at least it's an anteroom of heaven, is set in what some people would consider the best that this life and world have to offer, a lake in the back woods of Oregon. To do the job properly I feel the writer should have picked Canada, which is as close to heaven as you'll get here on Earth. Or maybe Switzerland as a close second. But Oregon is quite nice. I wonder if people found the writers view of heaven to be a compelling one. Or did it interfere with what you think or know?
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Post by ScholarGal on Jan 13, 2013 16:55:56 GMT -5
I wonder if people found the writers view of heaven to be a compelling one. Or did it interfere with what you think or know? The heavenly intervention presented in The Shack is an experience in solitude and contemplation. Though nature is held to be an expression of the power and creation of God, and used in descriptions of peace and contentment (Ps 23), I've never been sure that it is a view of heaven. What about the description of the great multitude in white robes before the throne (Rev 7)?
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Post by What Hat on Jan 13, 2013 23:12:43 GMT -5
I wonder if people found the writers view of heaven to be a compelling one. Or did it interfere with what you think or know? The heavenly intervention presented in The Shack is an experience in solitude and contemplation. Though nature is held to be an expression of the power and creation of God, and used in descriptions of peace and contentment (Ps 23), I've never been sure that it is a view of heaven. What about the description of the great multitude in white robes before the throne (Rev 7)? Other than a few enduring images like God wiping away the tears from our eyes, and the living waters proceeding from the throne, Revelations has never done it for me as far as the after-life is concerned. Except making me quite afraid as a little kid. It took Lee Harmon's book on Revelation to restore some credibilitypersonal relevance to the book, in my mind. The last time I felt very close to heaven was hiking in Jasper one May a few years ago. We were above the tree line, looking down at Maligne Lake, and everything was shrouded in snow. I was absolutely convinced that what I was seeing was not a random product of geological forces, although those forces were evident, but that a Creator had thought about this beforehand, and with intent. I actually spoke about it in my testimony at convention which was a month or so later, but I forget now what I said.
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Post by ajourneyman on Jan 16, 2013 1:26:50 GMT -5
First, yes I read it, Yes it was written as FICTION, but it not just a book of fiction - It is being read and taught in a lot of the so called main stream churches. Fiction being what it is, it still , because it is called fiction, teaches false truth and doctrine - Hopefully , those out here who are in the work spend more time reading their bible than works of fiction (I must confess, that I do have a problem in this area.)
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Post by What Hat on Jan 16, 2013 9:57:53 GMT -5
First, yes I read it, Yes it was written as FICTION, but it not just a book of fiction - It is being read and taught in a lot of the so called main stream churches. Fiction being what it is, it still , because it is called fiction, teaches false truth and doctrine - Hopefully , those out here who are in the work spend more time reading their bible than works of fiction (I must confess, that I do have a problem in this area.) I would be more worried about workers reading the Bible, and never reading anything else, than the other way around. General reading is one of the ways in which we connect with life going on around us, whether that is fiction or nonfiction reading. And on another statement, I see where you're going with fiction teaching false doctrine. But it is "fiction" right? So why should we be so concerned about it. As readers are we not able to sort those things out. I'm more concerned when people try to put limits around what we can and cannot read, because often those people are trying to protect wrong ideas. I just watched a movie about pre-WWII Japan, and you may know it was almost a warrior society at that time. If you said anything anti-war or anti-soldier you were labelled a Red or a Communist, and possibly thrown in jail. This movie concerned a teacher who was asking her students to carefully consider whether a career as soldier was the best thing. For a few comments like that she put herself at grave risk. When you have the power to influence people, you do have to be careful in the exercise of that power, because history has shown that when dissenting voices are suppressed, there is nothing to prevent the lemmings from running over a cliff. That's what happened in Japan. Finally, do you know of any church that is teaching The Shack as doctrine? That would surprise me, to tell the truth. Are you sure they are not simply discussing it, just as we are? Quite a few mainstream churches are attacking the book, though. Thanks for your comments 'ajourneyman'. I hope I have not been too provoking in my response.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 18, 2013 18:05:04 GMT -5
So, are we going to talk about the ending? Did it remind anyone of Life of Pi? If it was all a dream (and clearly it was, as the body of his daughter was not moved) then how did he know where to find the cave?
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Post by Happy Feet on Jan 19, 2013 1:24:40 GMT -5
Back home after a great holiday in Jordan.
What wrote the author as William Ross for The shack in the first post - of the Book Discussion board - news - updated, 26 November - thread. It is William Young not Ross. I went looking at the library and no William Ross. Came back and looked on another thread and it has William Young so I've ordered it. Also The Life of Pi is on at the movies so i will go this week. Easier than reading it.
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Post by What Hat on Jan 19, 2013 14:13:56 GMT -5
Back home after a great holiday in Jordan. What wrote the author as William Ross for The shack in the first post - of the Book Discussion board - news - updated, 26 November - thread. It is William Young not Ross. I went looking at the library and no William Ross. Came back and looked on another thread and it has William Young so I've ordered it. Also The Life of Pi is on at the movies so i will go this week. Easier than reading it. The movie is very good. We saw it in 3D! 3D tiger!
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Post by What Hat on Jan 19, 2013 14:15:44 GMT -5
Back home after a great holiday in Jordan. What wrote the author as William Ross for The shack in the first post - of the Book Discussion board - news - updated, 26 November - thread. It is William Young not Ross. I went looking at the library and no William Ross. Came back and looked on another thread and it has William Young so I've ordered it. Also The Life of Pi is on at the movies so i will go this week. Easier than reading it. Whoops. Sorry to throw you off. Did I mention that our moderator this month is Scott Young? Yeah, the same guy that wrote 'Scrubs on Skates' and is the father of singer Neil Young.
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Post by emy on Feb 2, 2013 13:41:30 GMT -5
I don't have much to say about the book. I read about 2/3 of it, got impatient (not unusual for me), and skimmed ahead. When I discovered that the whole story was a result of being in a coma for some time, I lost all interest in it. I had been thinking that it might have been some sort of vision, likely fictional. The images of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were mostly amusing, though I thought their nature was accurate, for the most part. That's it for my impressions!
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Post by Happy Feet on Feb 3, 2013 1:44:46 GMT -5
I saw the Life of Pi at the movies a week or so ago and have just finished reading The Shack so I have caught up with the reading material on here.
I liked the Life of Pi but I cannot say the same for The Shack. I found the beginning of The Shack great but then like Emy I just skimmed over the next 100 pages and took up serious reading again near the end.
I think the theme of the book was great and a great testimony to the healing power of God and personification of the Father Son and Holy Spirit and use of scripture on our every day lives. I had no problem that it happened when he was in a coma, but the many pages in between were boring and repetitive.
My friend was visiting someone and they talked about papa when referring to God. My friend found this unusual and did not like it. My guess is maybe the person had read The Shack.
I give The Holy Ghost Girl 100% - best book I have read in a while. I give The Life of Pi around 75% - but the movie may portray it better than reading the book, The Family 10% and the Shack 60%. The first 100 pages and last 50 pages of The Shack 80%, but the middle 100 pages 20%.
So what's next on the list?
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