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Atheism
Nov 24, 2012 15:18:20 GMT -5
Post by ghost on Nov 24, 2012 15:18:20 GMT -5
Nathan, some steps down your syllogism one can find this famous phrase of Arnaul Amalric, papal legate and inquisitor during the Albigensian Crusade, then archbishop of Narbonne: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His.)
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Atheism
Nov 24, 2012 21:11:48 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Nov 24, 2012 21:11:48 GMT -5
Thanks ghost. I don't believe the same thing as u Nathan. I do understand. There are many that stand where I do right into old age and death, so I don't think it's a time thing.
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Atheism
Nov 24, 2012 22:36:06 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 24, 2012 22:36:06 GMT -5
Nathan, some steps down your syllogism one can find this famous phrase of Arnaul Amalric, papal legate and inquisitor during the Albigensian Crusade, then archbishop of Narbonne: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius (Kill them all. For the Lord knoweth them that are His.) Yes, those were VERY horrible days for the Albigenses, Waldensians, Cathars, the Vaudois, and many thousands people, who had like them.
Many Popes, bishops, Cardinals, priests during the dark ages went way overboard with the CC own ZEAL to Stamp out who they called Heretics but they were the Truthers /God's people. ...No wonder many became Atheists because of what they saw and heard the CC had killed by the thousands, during the dark ages in the Name of God. It wasn't supposed to be done through the swords but Divine LOVE of God.That kind of massacres could happen all over again if any fundamentalist religion , Christian or otherwise, rose to power. A wall between Separation of Church & State, with our government being a secular not sectarian entity , is the safeguard we need to keep in place to be sure that kind of history doesn't repeat itself.
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Atheism
Nov 25, 2012 14:02:05 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2012 14:02:05 GMT -5
That kind of massacres could happen all over again if any fundamentalist religion , Christian or otherwise, rose to power. A wall between Separation of Church & State, with our government being a secular not sectarian entity , is the safeguard we need to keep in place to be sure that kind of history doesn't repeat itself. Yes, I agree 110%. Power corrupts! and plus religion made it worse. The Christians in Rome should have LEFT politics alone after they had become Christians in the 3rd century. Church and State is a BAD combination just like Oil doesn't mix with Water. Many of the Reformation Protestants have made the similiar mistake too they should have learned from the CC in Rome.
1) Christians should STAY out of politics. NO! nathan, that is not what I meant!1) I didn't mean that any Christian, nor member of any other religion, should stay out of politics! There is a " No religious test clause" in the US Constitution Article VI that states those in public office are bound by oath to support the Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States. That is a big difference from saying any religious person should stay OUT of politics! It is simply that by oath or affirmation the person is bound by the Constitution but isn't limited by any religious test! That is why we have a secular government, & not a sectarian government as were most governments before us & still are in some countries.
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Atheism
Nov 25, 2012 19:07:47 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2012 19:07:47 GMT -5
In my own opinion the Christians should STAY out of politics in this world. Did Jesus or the apostles get involved in politics? Jesus said in John 18:36" My kingdom is NOT of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should NOT delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom from another place." Jesus disciples should and MUST mindful of the spiritual kingdom first, than getting involved in this world politics. God will raise up good men and women of this world to get things going in the right direction. To what degree do you think Christians should stay OUT of politics?
Should they not run for office?
Not any office, from dogcatcher to president?
Not work to help elect anyone?
not vote?Not even read about politics?
Not recognize any elected official as legitimate?
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Atheism
Nov 25, 2012 19:20:06 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2012 19:20:06 GMT -5
In my own opinion the Christians should STAY out of politics in this world. Did Jesus or the apostles get involved in politics? Jesus said in John 18:36" My kingdom is NOT of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should NOT delivered to the Jews: but now my kingdom from another place." Jesus disciples should and MUST mindful of the spiritual kingdom first, than getting involved in this world politics.
God will raise up good men and women of this world to get things going in the right direction. [/b][/quote] Ah, I have heard that before.
If so, what about the direction men like Hitler, or Stalin or any other numerous depots went?
Was that done by the direction of God?
If so, what do you think of such a god as that?
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Atheism
Nov 25, 2012 23:29:58 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 25, 2012 23:29:58 GMT -5
Ah, I have heard that before.
If so, what about the direction men like Hitler, or Stalin or any other numerous depots went?
Was that done by the direction of God?
If so, what do you think of such a god as that? God has used men and women in this worldly government taken care of Hitler and Stalin at the end didn't He? God used Hitler's holocaust in gathering the Jews, who had been scattered all over the world coming back to Jerusalem after WW II to fulfill scriptures. They became a nation again in 1948 after 1800 yrs. of scattering to the four winds. Jesus said, "Seek ye FIRST the kingdom of God." Ok, so you believe in & worship a god that would allow Hitler to kill 6 MILLION, that's 6 MILLION people, Jews, just to fulfill his prophecy that they would return to Jerusalem?
Can you not see why I can't possibly worship a god as cruel as that?
That is exactly why I'm an atheist!
I can't believe in a god that cruel!
I think human kind has simply made up such a god in order to try & understand such an atrocity!
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 2:21:17 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Nov 26, 2012 2:21:17 GMT -5
A wall between Separation of Church & State, with our government being a secular not sectarian entity , is the safeguard we need to keep in place to be sure that kind of history doesn't repeat itself. What defines the secular state? Who, or what is it's god?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 2:51:05 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 2:51:05 GMT -5
Ok, so you believe in & worship a god that would allow Hitler to kill 6 MILLION, that's 6 MILLION people, Jews, just to fulfill his prophecy that they would return to Jerusalem?
Can you not see why I can't possibly worship a god as cruel as that? That is exactly why I'm an atheist! I can't believe in a god that cruel! I think human kind has simply made up such a god in order to try & understand such an atrocity! 2000 yrs ago on Calvary's Cross Matthew 27:22-25 Pilate said unto the Jews, "What shall I do then with Jesus, which is called Christ? they ALL said, "Let him/Jesus be crucified...... Then answered ALL the people, and said, " Let His blood be on us, and our children." It was their choice so their children has to suffer until Jesus 2nd coming when they say Jesus is the Lord God Savior. Jesus gave the Jews in Jerusalem 40 yrs to REPENT before He allowed the Roman Army to scatter them and their children to four corners of the earth as slaves, strangers, foreigners to many nations around the world, after the Jerusalem destruction in 70 A.D. God allowed them to return to Jerusalem after WW II and in 1948 the Jews got their independence as a nation again.
The Jews blindness to who Christ is ONLY temporary until the fullness of the Gentiles has enter in the kingdom of God. In Romans 11:1-28. And so ALL Israel shall be SAVED: As it is written there shall come out of Zion the Deliverer! and shall turn away ungodliness form Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
dmg, God is kind, loving, and merciful Divine Being, in John 3:16 "For God so loved the World that He gave His begotten Son, so that whosoever believes in him should NOT perish, but have everlasting life." I pray that you will change your mind and come back to God because He LOVES you very much.
N o supreme being, as you claim your god is, that allows such a slaughter deserves being called a "kind, loving and merciful divine being."
You may pray all you want for me to come back to god because "he love me" He doesn't love me, why? because he doesn't exist! !
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 3:07:30 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Nov 26, 2012 3:07:30 GMT -5
Man cannot direct his own steps aright. Even Athiests have a belief system it happens to be in nothing. Some of them want to make us all athiests.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 3:28:07 GMT -5
Post by ghost on Nov 26, 2012 3:28:07 GMT -5
What I conclude from your writings Nathan is that the State should not be guided by any religion but by rules established in a non-dogmatic way for the common good of the citizens. In a way an «atheist» state (of course not a state that promotes atheism as was the communist state of Albania some years ago).
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 3:36:14 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 3:36:14 GMT -5
Man cannot direct his own steps aright. Even Athiests have a belief system it happens to be in nothing. Some of them want to make us all athiests. Yes, atheists have a belief system, but it doesn't include a supernatural being
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 12:42:44 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 12:42:44 GMT -5
Man cannot direct his own steps aright. Even Athiests have a belief system it happens to be in nothing. Some of them want to make us all athiests. No,Not really, guitar, atheists aren't trying to make all of you atheists.
Just telling what we believe (and don't believe) just as Christians & other religious people tell us what they believe or don't believe.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 12:57:33 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 12:57:33 GMT -5
Yes, atheists have a belief system, but it doesn't include a supernatural being Romans 3:12,7,19 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you, an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the LIVING God. Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, Today! if ye hear His voice hardened NOT your heart, as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness. Where your fathers tested me, and tried me, and SAW my works 40 yrs. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, they do always err in their heart; and they have NOT know my ways. So, I sware in my anger, they shall NOT enter into my rest (Promised land). So we see they could NOT enter in because of UNBELIEF. I hope you don't be like Pharaoh of old, who hardended his heart because of Unbelief, pride, ignorant, arrogant, etc.. before it too late. By the way, God didn't kill 6 Million Jews it was Hitler and his henchmen (Occultists/Satan worshipers). They're going to pay for it BIG time after death and in the day of Judgment. Rev. 20:14,15 And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books was opened, which is the book of life: and the DEAD were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their WORKS,.... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death and whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire. So you are saying my heart is evil because I don't (can't) believe in an supernatural being who, is by your account; all powerful, always present, and all knowing, who knew what Hitler was doing, was right there & powerful enough to stop him- BUT DID NOT? But that supernatural being is NOT evil, I'm the one who is evil because I don't believe in HIM!?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 13:01:07 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 13:01:07 GMT -5
A wall between Separation of Church & State, with our government being a secular not sectarian entity , is the safeguard we need to keep in place to be sure that kind of history doesn't repeat itself. What defines the secular state? Who, or what is it's god? Doesn't have a GOD! That happens to be the meaning of "secular!"
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 13:06:03 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 13:06:03 GMT -5
Yes, atheists have a belief system, but it doesn't include a supernatural being Romans 3:12,7,19 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you, an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the LIVING God. Wherefore as the Holy Ghost saith, Today! if ye hear His voice hardened NOT your heart, as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness. Where your fathers tested me, and tried me, and SAW my works 40 yrs. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, they do always err in their heart; and they have NOT know my ways. So, I sware in my anger, they shall NOT enter into my rest (Promised land). So we see they could NOT enter in because of UNBELIEF. I hope you don't be like Pharaoh of old, who hardended his heart because of Unbelief, pride, ignorant, arrogant, etc.. before it too late. By the way, God didn't kill 6 Million Jews it was Hitler and his henchmen (Occultists/Satan worshipers). They're going to pay for it BIG time after death and in the day of Judgment. Rev. 20:14,15 And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books was opened, which is the book of life: and the DEAD were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their WORKS,.... And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death and whosoever was NOT found written in the book of life, was cast into the lake of fire. Do you really think that after I was released from the bondage of the so-called "TRUTH" that I would allow myself to go back into such a bondage no matter how much "hell & brim fire" anyone quotes to me, nathan?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 13:51:23 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Nov 26, 2012 13:51:23 GMT -5
If I read what you are saying correctly, the 2x2 fellowship isn't in any way a requirement in accepting Jesus as Lord God Savior before you dieIs that correct?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 14:14:23 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 14:14:23 GMT -5
Do you really think that after I was released from the bondage of the so-called "TRUTH" that I would allow myself to go back into such a bondage no matter how much "hell & brim fire" anyone quotes to me, nathan? No, just make sure Jesus is your Lord God Savior before you die. Christ in you is the hope of glory. The 2x2 fellowship just there to encourage, and strengthen your faith in God on this journey ladder steps of life from earth to heaven. It is Jesus Christ who SAVES you, the fellowship is here to cheer you to keep on climbing up the ladders and don't look back or down. Sorry, nathan. You miss the point. I simply don't believe there is any evidence of any all-powerful god who condemns his own creation to a "lost" eternity then turns around & sends his "son" to such a horrible death in order to "save" us from what he, god, had allowed to happen in the first place!
If that god were "all powerful" to start with, why go through those machinations playing around with HIS creation?
Such a god would be sadistic!
It is just one more of the multiple MYTHS (look at the cartoon at the beginning of this thread) that humankind has told themselves in order to try & make sense of their world.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 15:00:20 GMT -5
Post by rational on Nov 26, 2012 15:00:20 GMT -5
God wants to give His creation Free will in making their own choices. God doesn't want Robots in heaven but those who LOVE to be with him by their own choosing and choice. Threatening someone to eternal damnation unless they do as you say is not free will.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 15:32:17 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Nov 26, 2012 15:32:17 GMT -5
If I read what you are saying correctly, the 2x2 fellowship isn't in any way a requirement in accepting Jesus as Lord God Savior before you dieIs that correct? Here is my answer.... I am STAYING and having fellowship with 2x2s. ;D I had attended with others fellowship before and No, thanks. You can have it if that is what you like to do.What was you answer to? It certainly didn't answer the question that I asked....... Maybe I will try again. Is there any need to be a member of the truth fellowship in order to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 16:01:42 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Nov 26, 2012 16:01:42 GMT -5
What was you answer to? It certainly didn't answer the question that I asked....... Maybe I will try again. Is there any need to be a member of the truth fellowship in order to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior? I thought you could read between the lines! ;D the answer is YES, that was my experience.Well..... I am just a dumb ol' biker dude. Thanks for the honest answer Nathan. I think you know that I disagree with you. My thoughts are that if a person believes that they must be a member of the truth fellowship in order to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then that person is claiming that the fellowship is more important than Jesus, and they think that Jesus is a liar. Otherwise how do you explain His words recorded in the bible concerning that no man comes to the Father except through him? Is Jesus a liar?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 16:32:23 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Nov 26, 2012 16:32:23 GMT -5
Well..... I am just a dumb ol' biker dude. Thanks for the honest answer Nathan. I think you know that I disagree with you. My thoughts are that if a person believes that they must be a member of the truth fellowship in order to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, then that person is claiming that the fellowship is more important than Jesus, and they think that Jesus is a liar. Otherwise how do you explain His words recorded in the bible concerning that no man comes to the Father except through him? Is Jesus a liar? Jesus is God/the Son so He can't be a liar. Jesus SAVES.... How did the People get SAVED After his ascension? It was through His New Testament ministry servants/followers preaching the gospel of Salvation (Matthew 10:40; Matthew 24:14; Luke 10:16; John 20:22,23; Acts 1:8; Acts 8:1-4; Acts chapters 10 and 11; Romans 10:13-18; Revelation 14:1-20) So, tell me Scott, how did the people get SAVED in the book of Acts? Did the apostles tell their converts to go back to their fomer faith? or join another group? Or did they have their own fellowship so the new converts could gather together among themselves and their fellowship with the Father and the Son. ( Acts 2:41,42; I John 1:1-7) They were saved by believing in Jesus and accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Nathan.... think about what you stated here: How did the People get SAVED After his ascension? It was through His New Testament ministry servants/followers preaching the gospel of SalvationThis says that it was NOT by accepting Christ, but by accepting a ministry or man other than Jesus. Is that what you are saying?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 17:00:58 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 17:00:58 GMT -5
Threatening someone to eternal damnation unless they do as you say is not free will. But the Fearful, Unbelieving, abominable, murderers, ladymongers, sorercers, idolaters, all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burn with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21:6-9) [/color] [/quote] So, are you saying that all we have to be is an unbeliever, not any of these other things, & we will still go to the lake of fire & brimestone?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 17:35:08 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 17:35:08 GMT -5
So, are you saying that all we have to be is an unbeliever, not any of these other things, & we will still go to the lake of fire & brimestone? Read the list is quite bad because they didn't Repent from their sins, but the Unbelievers are second people at the top of the list.And just being Fearful will get you kicked in?
Fearful of what?
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 17:49:25 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Nov 26, 2012 17:49:25 GMT -5
Sorry, nathan. You miss the point. I simply don't believe there is any evidence of any all-powerful god who condemns his own creation to a "lost" eternity then turns around & sends his "son" to such a horrible death in order to "save" us from what he, god, had allowed to happen in the first place!
If that god were "all powerful" to start with, why go through those machinations playing around with HIS creation?
Such a god would be sadistic!
It is just one more of the multiple MYTHS (look at the cartoon at the beginning of this thread) that humankind has told themselves in order to try & make sense of their world. God wants to give His creation Free will in making their own choices. God doesn't want Robots in heaven but those who LOVE to be with him by their own choosing and choice.
This is the order God the Father, send his Son to SAVE humanity, the plans was to SAVE all but those who constantly REFUSE to be SAVED then He send the them to lake of fire. John 3:18-21 He that believeth on Jesus is NOT condemed : he that believeth NOT is comdemned already, because he has NOT believe in the name of the ONLY begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light has come into the world, and men loved darkness instead of light, because their deeds were EVIL. For everyone that does evil hateth the light, for fear his deeds will be exposed. But he that lives by the truth come into the light, that his deeds may be manifest, what he has been done been done through God. How much worse (evil) could our deeds be than the deeds a "god" who sends people into a lake of fire just because the won't adhere to his agenda of being "saved?"
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 18:22:28 GMT -5
Post by guitar on Nov 26, 2012 18:22:28 GMT -5
Or how much does he love us that he would let us choose hell?.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 19:06:33 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Nov 26, 2012 19:06:33 GMT -5
How much worse (evil) could our deeds be than the deeds a "god" who sends people into a lake of fire just because the won't adhere to his agenda of being "saved?" Here's an analogy that might be an easier explanation; Little Jonny is born to mom and dad. There are things that mom and dad don't allow little jonny to do. Why? not because they are bad people, but because they love little jonny. If little jonny tries to run accross the street, little jonny gets in trouble. As little jonny gets older he begins to understand why mom and dad expect certain things of him. He either obeys mom and dad and enjoys all the privileges of the rest of the family or he disobeys and doesn't get to enjoy the privilege of the rest. Why...not because mom and dad are bad, but because they love little jonny and know what is best for him. They know that sometimes it takes correction/punishment to get little jonny to do what is right, but also knows that it will ultimately result in great things for little jonny, rather than leave it up to little jonny to do what he wants and lead his own life into a disaster. The Lord loves us much more than Mom and Dad love little Jonny.
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Atheism
Nov 26, 2012 21:27:54 GMT -5
Post by rational on Nov 26, 2012 21:27:54 GMT -5
Here's an analogy that might be an easier explanation; Little Jonny is born to mom and dad. There are things that mom and dad don't allow little jonny to do. Why? not because they are bad people, but because they love little jonny. But at no point to loving parents threaten their child with eternal pain and suffering. It never takes punishment to correct and lead children to the correct path. And this love is expressed by eternal damnation? Do you really believe that this is the best possible solution an omniscient omnipotent being could come up with?
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