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Post by ts on Oct 6, 2012 1:34:03 GMT -5
He doesn't owe me anything. He can sit and accuse me all he wants to and not respond to my posts. It is an open board. He can also attack me instead of the message. I am free to point out that that is what he is doing.
The fact is, Linford knows that what I am saying is true. He does not believe that Rational is being truthful and honest in his assessment of what I said. He also knows that it is wrong that he gossiped about with one of the friends who was in special meeting with me when I spoke. The only report he got was "he went on and on" and no mention of what I said. He knows that that was wrong.
But you are right. Linford does not have to discuss anything. And he is free to keep on prevaricating and accusing me of that if he wants to. I do welcome his openness on this subject if he is so minded, though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 7:29:45 GMT -5
Lin, if you don't like the message feel free to critique it. But please don't attack the messenger. Messenger? What message? His message is I am the great ts. I didn't see that one. Could you provide a proof quote for it please?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 7:34:05 GMT -5
The Christ I follow hated abuse of any kind and spoke out harshly against it. Did He say it was your place to? Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 7:37:59 GMT -5
Does that now make you better than Linford seeing you are so willing to point out what you see as a deficiency in Linford? I won't be surprised if you don't answer the question Ha! Better answer this one for you Kees! No, it doesn't make me better than Lin. It's pretty sad that the culture of this fellowship ensures that the message gets ignored while the messenger gets attacked. The same culture also encourages that the message gets ignored and the messenger adored.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 7:40:50 GMT -5
Has the ministry ever admitted to being wrong about anything? No, at least not known. Individual admission of individual error occurs occasionally, but the sacred cow is "the ministry" and it (as a concept and an institution) must not be touched or tainted in any way, at any cost.
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Post by Greg on Oct 6, 2012 8:54:35 GMT -5
Did He say it was your place to? Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates. I think when Jesus said "follow me" he was saying "come with me". I think some people's relation with the F&W fellowship is similar to the supposed blind men that were describing an elephant. (This never made much sense to me as the picture of this is too limited, too short lived.) I wonder if some people are following the elephant. What would they experience? I wonder if some people have a hold of the tail. What would they experience? I wonder if some people have nestled right next to or in other body parts. I wonder. I think the story of David not slaying Saul is not appropriate in the use of discrediting rebuke. The same with not casting the first stone. They perhaps all have their valid teaching points, but I wonder if they are used appropriately.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2012 9:34:03 GMT -5
Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates. I think when Jesus said "follow me" he was saying "come with me". Sort of like "come with me but don't do what I do"? I think the context is far from that. "Follow me" is more likely to mean "Follow my lead". That meaning is particularly implicit in the exchange Jesus had with Peter at the end of John's gospel. Also, this one: "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." which specifically indicates that following him means doing the same thing as him.
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Post by rational on Oct 6, 2012 10:22:44 GMT -5
Rational glad to see your interest in the work in South Africa or Am I mistaken. Again, you are mistaken. My first comment had nothing to do with the work, workers, or the 2x2 religion. I was trying to learn how TS was able to determine that he had greater love for people than others and was wondering what stood behind the guarantee he offered. My second comment was offering the analogy that TS saying he was still a worker was much like someone putting on a uniform and declaring they are in the military service. With which one did you have a problem? Whether it is god's work of TS doing what he believes if right is not the issue. Making unverified/supported claims will always raise questions. As far as either you or TS ever making a response to my question regarding your claims that fear of god based morals are superior to non-fear based morals - I have raised the question enough times without response that I have come to the conclusion that neither of you can offer support for your statements. Not sure that I do. Is it that you feel free to make statements that you cannot support?
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Post by rational on Oct 6, 2012 10:26:35 GMT -5
He doesn't owe me anything. He can sit and accuse me all he wants to and not respond to my posts. I wonder if it might be that he is following your example of ignoring questions.
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Post by Greg on Oct 6, 2012 10:29:48 GMT -5
I think when Jesus said "follow me" he was saying "come with me". Sort of like "come with me but don't do what I do"? I think the context is far from that. "Follow me" is more likely to mean "Follow my lead". That meaning is particularly implicit in the exchange Jesus had with Peter at the end of John's gospel. Also, this one: "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." which specifically indicates that following him means doing the same thing as him. Come, follow me. Literally and physically, come, follow me. I am going to teach you to be fishers of men as we travel about. So, come, follow me. I will tell you things and show you things. So, come, follow me. Literally, physically, come, follow me. Of course Jesus wanted his disciples to "do as I say (instruct) and do as I do" and in those cases it is "follow what I say" and "follow what I do". Literally, physically, follow what I say and do. But when he called them to "come, follow me" it was to literally, physically, come, follow, walk with me. I probably am not capable of expressing the difference I see. There are times when certain things happen or when certain things are taught and when asked why, the reply is "as Jesus said, 'come, follow me' - that is why." The phrase becomes a catch-all.
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Post by JO on Oct 6, 2012 14:42:18 GMT -5
Is Jesus the Christ our teacher and master?
If so, we will grow like him as we absorb his teaching, his example, his loves and hates, his way of seeing the world.
Jesus particularly hated religious abuse, and when the perpetrators were professing to serve God Jesus rebuked them harshly.
If a Roman compelled a Jew to carry his load for a mile, Jesus advised the Jew to offer to carry it two miles. That changed the Jew from a conscript to a volunteer, and was a better outcome for both parties.
However, when Jesus saw people being oppressed by full-of-their-own-importance hypocritical religious rulers with their foolish man-made religious rules - he spoke out against them.
If you're of Christ you'll defend the rights of the oppressed, even though some folk will say its none of your business.
.................... ......................... ..................... ..........................
Matthew 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master.
25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household!
26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.
27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs.
Exodus 2:13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?”
14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us?"
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2012 19:42:25 GMT -5
Did He say it was your place to? Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates. Ha ha don't be so funny, read the good Samaritan and see what he did and didn't do
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2012 19:46:20 GMT -5
The Christ I follow hated abuse of any kind and spoke out harshly against it. Did He say it was your place to? ?
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Post by kiwi on Oct 6, 2012 19:49:51 GMT -5
I think when Jesus said "follow me" he was saying "come with me". Sort of like "come with me but don't do what I do"? I think the context is far from that. "Follow me" is more likely to mean "Follow my lead". That meaning is particularly implicit in the exchange Jesus had with Peter at the end of John's gospel. Also, this one: "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." which specifically indicates that following him means doing the same thing as him. No it don't Love the Lord thy God...........doesn't give any room for any but Jesus to point out others perceived wrongs.
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Post by JO on Oct 6, 2012 22:46:19 GMT -5
Kees, the following scripture might fit with your philosophy:
Matt 15:12 Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
14 Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
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Post by ts on Oct 6, 2012 23:00:56 GMT -5
So, evidently once Jesus ceased to walk in the flesh on the earth the disciples had no way of knowing what was right or wrong. Each individual was only able to know what was right for himself and there was no understanding given for anyone to see any error in another.
And then the disciples went into all the world preaching this doctrine. The disciples, then, were preaching repentance from dead works but they did not have the insight or authority to give anyone else any indication what a dead work might be.
So, that is why, when a professed celibate overseer has sex with a sister worker, no one who is following after Jesus would dare rebuke them. Such a rebuke would be clear evidence that that person does not "love the Lord thy God..."
And that is the "simplicity" of the gospel that the workers preach. Right is wrong and wrong is right.
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Post by JO on Oct 6, 2012 23:24:09 GMT -5
This is the doctrine:
"Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. In the final analysis, there are some things that we just have to leave in his hands. I believe that for anyone to try to force changes now, after all that has been done to bring issues into focus, that it could mean just being very much out of our place."
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Post by dlb5674 on Oct 7, 2012 0:46:55 GMT -5
Is Jesus the Christ our teacher and master? If so, we will grow like him as we absorb his teaching, his example, his loves and hates, his way of seeing the world. Jesus particularly hated religious abuse, and when the perpetrators were professing to serve God Jesus rebuked them harshly. If a Roman compelled a Jew to carry his load for a mile, Jesus advised the Jew to offer to carry it two miles. That changed the Jew from a conscript to a volunteer, and was a better outcome for both parties. However, when Jesus saw people being oppressed by full-of-their-own-importance hypocritical religious rulers with their foolish man-made religious rules - he spoke out against them. If you're of Christ you'll defend the rights of the oppressed, even though some folk will say its none of your business. .................... ......................... ..................... .......................... Matthew 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! 26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Exodus 2:13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” 14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us?" Amen to this post. I suspect there are a few posting on this thread that really have not taken the time to read the message of the gospel without a 2x2 bias. TS, I commend you, JO, Clearday, Ken and Greg for standing for all that Jesus represented and who HE WAS. There are those who are intolerant of TS. Sometimes repeating a truth grates against the nerves. I'm certain that every time Satan hears the name of Jesus it offends him. I ask you, what is it about the comments TS makes on this forum that really offends you? Is there not an element of truth to what he says? If not, then provide evidence to disprove what he is stating. For those who continue in the 2x2 fellowship with honest hearts, I hope that one day you will see the system for what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 8:23:03 GMT -5
Sort of like "come with me but don't do what I do"? I think the context is far from that. "Follow me" is more likely to mean "Follow my lead". That meaning is particularly implicit in the exchange Jesus had with Peter at the end of John's gospel. Also, this one: "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." which specifically indicates that following him means doing the same thing as him. No it don't Love the Lord thy God...........doesn't give any room for any but Jesus to point out others perceived wrongs. Please note this teaching of Jesus: "Judge righteous judgment". There is nothing more dangerous than to ignore the dangers that surround you, and there is not much more uncaring than to fail to point them out to those you claim to love.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 8:38:09 GMT -5
Sort of like "come with me but don't do what I do"? I think the context is far from that. "Follow me" is more likely to mean "Follow my lead". That meaning is particularly implicit in the exchange Jesus had with Peter at the end of John's gospel. Also, this one: "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." which specifically indicates that following him means doing the same thing as him. Come, follow me. Literally and physically, come, follow me. I am going to teach you to be fishers of men as we travel about. So, come, follow me. I will tell you things and show you things. So, come, follow me. Literally, physically, come, follow me. Of course Jesus wanted his disciples to "do as I say (instruct) and do as I do" and in those cases it is "follow what I say" and "follow what I do". Literally, physically, follow what I say and do. But when he called them to "come, follow me" it was to literally, physically, come, follow, walk with me. I probably am not capable of expressing the difference I see. There are times when certain things happen or when certain things are taught and when asked why, the reply is "as Jesus said, 'come, follow me' - that is why." The phrase becomes a catch-all. The interchange between Jesus and Peter at the end of John's gospel was post-resurrection. It could not possibly have meant "literally and physically" following him. Further to that, Jesus repeated told his disciples that they couldn't follow him literally and physically. For example: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." One of the most fundamental teachings of Christ is a process of transformation, ie through faith to become more like the ideal Christ we understand as divine. That is what is implied in most of his calls to "follow me". For yourself and kiwi to argue that Jesus did not call for people to live and become like him is remarkable. It is missing the whole point of Christian faith. The essence of Christ fully within individuals is (or should be) the primary goal of Christians.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 8:47:55 GMT -5
Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates. Ha ha don't be so funny, read the good Samaritan and see what he did and didn't do Well I will say this much, I am grateful you aren't arguing to justify the inaction of the priest as occurred on another thread. The truth is, you do not know what the Samaritan didn't do because you do not have the full record of his life surrounding that incident. The reason the full record is not recorded is because the lesson was not meant to detail what you should or shouldn't do in that sort of circumstance, the sole lesson was to explain who is your neighbour, whom you are commanded to love. You are clearly intimating that the Samaritan didn't prosecute the offender. That's a terrible assumption to make from that story. The record does not indicate that the offender was known to even the victim, let alone the Samaritan. Would the Samaritan have made sure the offender was reported to the authorities and dealt with by them? You betcha, it is the only right thing to do. It amazes me that you would argue that failure to report a crime is a virtue......when it is a crime in itself. Even the heathen accept that simple principle.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 8:53:41 GMT -5
Is Jesus the Christ our teacher and master? If so, we will grow like him as we absorb his teaching, his example, his loves and hates, his way of seeing the world. Jesus particularly hated religious abuse, and when the perpetrators were professing to serve God Jesus rebuked them harshly. If a Roman compelled a Jew to carry his load for a mile, Jesus advised the Jew to offer to carry it two miles. That changed the Jew from a conscript to a volunteer, and was a better outcome for both parties. However, when Jesus saw people being oppressed by full-of-their-own-importance hypocritical religious rulers with their foolish man-made religious rules - he spoke out against them. If you're of Christ you'll defend the rights of the oppressed, even though some folk will say its none of your business. .................... ......................... ..................... .......................... Matthew 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! 26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Exodus 2:13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” 14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us?" Amen to this post. I suspect there are a few posting on this thread that really have not taken the time to read the message of the gospel without a 2x2 bias. TS, I commend you, JO, Clearday, Ken and Greg for standing for all that Jesus represented and who HE WAS. There are those who are intolerant of TS. Sometimes repeating a truth grates against the nerves. I'm certain that every time Satan hears the name of Jesus it offends him. I ask you, what is it about the comments TS makes on this forum that really offends you? Is there not an element of truth to what he says? If not, then provide evidence to disprove what he is stating. For those who continue in the 2x2 fellowship with honest hearts, I hope that one day you will see the system for what it is. Frankly, I think TS gets a bad rap here. Sure, he seems a bit repetitive on sexual sins of workers but the principles he comes from tend to be fairly sound. It bothers people that he seems to "broadbrush" (some sort of new sin developed right here on the TMB apparently) the workers. However, opinion is opinion, and those who try to recast his opinion into fact seem unable to separate fact from opinion and should instead be focused on separating fact from fiction.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 9:34:30 GMT -5
Did He say it was your place to? Do you have any idea how often Jesus commanded to "Follow me"? There's your homework for the day. Your assignment is to count the number of times Jesus was recorded to have told his disciples to "follow me". You may be surprised by the answer and hopefully it will encourage you to follow Jesus as JO advocates. Maybe it's time that we "follow Jesus" and throw out the moneychangers again...for certainly the love of money is the root of all evil.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 9:42:06 GMT -5
Is Jesus the Christ our teacher and master? If so, we will grow like him as we absorb his teaching, his example, his loves and hates, his way of seeing the world. Jesus particularly hated religious abuse, and when the perpetrators were professing to serve God Jesus rebuked them harshly. If a Roman compelled a Jew to carry his load for a mile, Jesus advised the Jew to offer to carry it two miles. That changed the Jew from a conscript to a volunteer, and was a better outcome for both parties. However, when Jesus saw people being oppressed by full-of-their-own-importance hypocritical religious rulers with their foolish man-made religious rules - he spoke out against them. If you're of Christ you'll defend the rights of the oppressed, even though some folk will say its none of your business. .................... ......................... ..................... .......................... Matthew 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25 It is enough for students to be like their teachers, and servants like their masters. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebul, how much more the members of his household! 26 “So do not be afraid of them, for there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Exodus 2:13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” 14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us?" Amen to this post. I suspect there are a few posting on this thread that really have not taken the time to read the message of the gospel without a 2x2 bias. TS, I commend you, JO, Clearday, Ken and Greg for standing for all that Jesus represented and who HE WAS. There are those who are intolerant of TS. Sometimes repeating a truth grates against the nerves. I'm certain that every time Satan hears the name of Jesus it offends him. I ask you, what is it about the comments TS makes on this forum that really offends you? Is there not an element of truth to what he says? If not, then provide evidence to disprove what he is stating. For those who continue in the 2x2 fellowship with honest hearts, I hope that one day you will see the system for what it is. What he said! for it bears repeating!
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 9:48:20 GMT -5
Come, follow me. Literally and physically, come, follow me. I am going to teach you to be fishers of men as we travel about. So, come, follow me. I will tell you things and show you things. So, come, follow me. Literally, physically, come, follow me. Of course Jesus wanted his disciples to "do as I say (instruct) and do as I do" and in those cases it is "follow what I say" and "follow what I do". Literally, physically, follow what I say and do. But when he called them to "come, follow me" it was to literally, physically, come, follow, walk with me. I probably am not capable of expressing the difference I see. There are times when certain things happen or when certain things are taught and when asked why, the reply is "as Jesus said, 'come, follow me' - that is why." The phrase becomes a catch-all. The interchange between Jesus and Peter at the end of John's gospel was post-resurrection. It could not possibly have meant "literally and physically" following him. Further to that, Jesus repeated told his disciples that they couldn't follow him literally and physically. For example: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." One of the most fundamental teachings of Christ is a process of transformation, ie through faith to become more like the ideal Christ we understand as divine. That is what is implied in most of his calls to "follow me". For yourself and kiwi to argue that Jesus did not call for people to live and become like him is remarkable. It is missing the whole point of Christian faith. The essence of Christ fully within individuals is (or should be) the primary goal of Christians. CD, we can only aspire to be like Jesus...otherwords we are responding to the great salvation work Jesus has done.....He died for me, so I'll live for Him...and yes, that almost requires an unknowing desire to be like Him....that said, that was not the only message Jesus gave...HIS primary message was that He finished the work that His Father had sent Him to do and we see Him saying on the cross "It is finished." Otherwords, God's plan for salvation from before the world ever began was completed...Jesus had sacrificed His pure life on the cross....bearing all our our sins on His perfect life on the cross so that we might repent and bear His righteousness instead of our unrighteousness....but as Paul said this does not give us rights to sin....but to LOVE the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength....."Nothing but salvation, is the life within..."
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Post by sharonw on Oct 7, 2012 9:57:21 GMT -5
Ha ha don't be so funny, read the good Samaritan and see what he did and didn't do Well I will say this much, I am grateful you aren't arguing to justify the inaction of the priest as occurred on another thread. The truth is, you do not know what the Samaritan didn't do because you do not have the full record of his life surrounding that incident. The reason the full record is not recorded is because the lesson was not meant to detail what you should or shouldn't do in that sort of circumstance, the sole lesson was to explain who is your neighbour, whom you are commanded to love. You are clearly intimating that the Samaritan didn't prosecute the offender. That's a terrible assumption to make from that story. The record does not indicate that the offender was known to even the victim, let alone the Samaritan. Would the Samaritan have made sure the offender was reported to the authorities and dealt with by them? You betcha, it is the only right thing to do. It amazes me that you would argue that failure to report a crime is a virtue......when it is a crime in itself. Even the heathen accept that simple principle. Perhaps stopping to consider just who the good Samaritan really was and who likely was the victim and we know that the priest and the Levite were Jews......If we can remember as we read that sotry that the Samaritan were of a race of people that were looked down on and disliked in many ways as far as the Jews were concerned...I think most Samaritans were likely half Jew and the other half some other race....kind of like how we Americans used to think and some still do about the half black and white babies or offspring....those half black children used to be never accepted in the caucasian households so those children had to remain with their black parent or at least stay within their neighborhoods, but many were spurned by the blacks as well.... But the ONLY person to do what was the proper thing to the injured man, was someone that likely would have been spurned away from by the Levite and the priest and likely the injured one if he had not been injured and in need. But it was very much like Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees that it was the sick and lame who needed the physician's attention, not the heathy ones. Jesus was not received of His own, but He died for their sins as well as any one's else...so He was the "good Samaritan" for those of us who are of other races then He was or we might be embarrassed of Him had we lived in His era......His compassion and His desire that all mankind to live with Him forever is a wonderful gift.....just as the Samaritan was compassionate with the injured traveller so is Christ our Saviour....as you save "Love" saves us....so love should flow from us...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2012 10:01:11 GMT -5
The interchange between Jesus and Peter at the end of John's gospel was post-resurrection. It could not possibly have meant "literally and physically" following him. Further to that, Jesus repeated told his disciples that they couldn't follow him literally and physically. For example: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go." One of the most fundamental teachings of Christ is a process of transformation, ie through faith to become more like the ideal Christ we understand as divine. That is what is implied in most of his calls to "follow me". For yourself and kiwi to argue that Jesus did not call for people to live and become like him is remarkable. It is missing the whole point of Christian faith. The essence of Christ fully within individuals is (or should be) the primary goal of Christians. CD, we can only aspire to be like Jesus...otherwords we are responding to the great salvation work Jesus has done.....He died for me, so I'll live for Him...and yes, that almost requires an unknowing desire to be like Him....that said, that was not the only message Jesus gave...HIS primary message was that He finished the work that His Father had sent Him to do and we see Him saying on the cross "It is finished." Otherwords, God's plan for salvation from before the world ever began was completed...Jesus had sacrificed His pure life on the cross....bearing all our our sins on His perfect life on the cross so that we might repent and bear His righteousness instead of our unrighteousness....but as Paul said this does not give us rights to sin....but to LOVE the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, souls and strength....."Nothing but salvation, is the life within..." The above bolded is probably one of the more deceptive teachings of current Christianity. If Christ's teachings and spirit are not transformative, they are not only useless, they are delusional. I know, I know, you will now respond with a description of the great evils of a works-based salvation. That is another deception: the real problem is not a grace vs works battle. The real problem is the denial of the power of the living Christ within in either case.
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Post by JO on Oct 7, 2012 13:17:56 GMT -5
The real problem is the denial of the power of the living Christ within in either case. This is where William Irvine seems to have had it right. From the Goodhand Pattison Account: ................... ..................... ..................... .................... .............. In addition to his bold and unusual methods already referred to, there were other outstanding features in William Irvine's preaching as compared with missions I had often attended before; particularly noticeable were his constant and oft repeated references to his own experiences, or as we might call it, "the work of his testimony," and right glad I am that this feature still gets the prominence it should have among our preachers of today. "Preaching" had developed into a 'fine art' in Methodism, but lacked the living touch of real personal experience, and he would persistently keep telling the people in every address that so many years ago (naming the number very definitely) he attended meetings and while doing so made up his mind to serve the Lord, that Christ came into his life, and was now living in his body, in a minor measure, as he had lived in the body of Jesus, and so realistic did he make this truth of 'Christ in You' and 'Christ in Me' that it seemed like a New Revelation, although we had been familiar enough with the words "Christ in you the hope of glory" and also "For me to live is Christ" and others like them. Another expression he was fond of using in the first days was: "Jesus was a common man." And although at first to our Pharisaic ears, it sounded very irreverent and repulsive (so much so that some would-be-grandees, who in other respects were a bit interested in the work, took great offense and from this and other causes walked no more with us), yet none of us could contradict or deny the simple fact; and admitting and thinking it over, and making it real had a very healthy and corrective affect on me at any rate, (all events) changing completely my conception of who and what Jesus was and is, from the fictitious "Gentleman Jesus" to the Jesus of the New Testament, whom the 'common people' "heard gladly" and who had always been, both at home and abroad, from cradle to grave, the poorest and lowliest.
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