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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2012 17:39:46 GMT -5
Oh yeah Edgar, and you were the one who cranked up my dad's radio at Antler......but you probably had a lot of victims that day! lol
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Post by snow on Sept 13, 2012 19:33:12 GMT -5
I remember Edgar in those days too. Came over to our place for Wed night meeting from preps one time. I was in my early-mid teens and Edgar was probably pretty new in the work. What do I remember? Edgar wore pointy toed shoes.....pretty cool for a worker I thought! I can't remember the shoes -- but I am sure going through my memories to figure out who you may be!! Must be within a radius of 40-50 miles from Antler --- and on Wednesdays we usually went to the Manitoba side!! So I have it down to 2 or three suspects!!. Anymore hints? Did you speak at Antler in 1965 or 66?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 2:15:33 GMT -5
I can't remember the shoes -- but I am sure going through my memories to figure out who you may be!! Must be within a radius of 40-50 miles from Antler --- and on Wednesdays we usually went to the Manitoba side!! So I have it down to 2 or three suspects!!. Anymore hints? Did you speak at Antler in 1965 or 66? I didn't go out into the work until October 1965 -- and as far as I can remember I don't think I was at Antler in 1966 as I prepared at Smeaton and then Aylesbury --- but I am not 100% sure about that,
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 2:17:27 GMT -5
I can't remember the shoes -- but I am sure going through my memories to figure out who you may be!! Must be within a radius of 40-50 miles from Antler --- and on Wednesdays we usually went to the Manitoba side!! So I have it down to 2 or three suspects!!. Anymore hints? I think that I am one of your 2 or 3 suspects......that's a good hint! We are also FB friends. Gottya!!
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2012 10:51:25 GMT -5
Did you speak at Antler in 1965 or 66? I didn't go out into the work until October 1965 -- and as far as I can remember I don't think I was at Antler in 1966 as I prepared at Smeaton and then Aylesbury --- but I am not 100% sure about that, Aha, I found it. Mom had saved an old scribbler I had from Antler convention, 1967 and in it I had all my notes. I have you down for the evening meeting. We sang hymn 295 and then 223 then you spoke on 4 Phillippians. Then Lorraine Ross spoke. Wow a trip down memory lane for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 10:57:45 GMT -5
I didn't go out into the work until October 1965 -- and as far as I can remember I don't think I was at Antler in 1966 as I prepared at Smeaton and then Aylesbury --- but I am not 100% sure about that, Aha, I found it. Mom had saved an old scribbler I had from Antler convention, 1967 and in it I had all my notes. I have you down for the evening meeting. We sang hymn 295 and then 223 then you spoke on 4 Phillippians. Then Lorraine Ross spoke. Wow a trip down memory lane for sure. LOL: Edgar, you can run, but you cannot hide!
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 14, 2012 12:03:43 GMT -5
Oh yeah Edgar, and you were the one who cranked up my dad's radio at Antler......but you probably had a lot of victims that day! lol Not sure what you mean by "cranked up?" Could you explain further exactly what it was Edgar did to the radio/s??
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2012 12:59:24 GMT -5
Aha, I found it. Mom had saved an old scribbler I had from Antler convention, 1967 and in it I had all my notes. I have you down for the evening meeting. We sang hymn 295 and then 223 then you spoke on 4 Phillippians. Then Lorraine Ross spoke. Wow a trip down memory lane for sure. LOL: Edgar, you can run, but you cannot hide! LOL yes, an interesting scribbler to be sure. I forgot about alot of the names in it. But also some of my random doodling that I did when I got bored. Names of guys I liked from school that I had forgotten about long ago!!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 14:11:04 GMT -5
Oh yeah Edgar, and you were the one who cranked up my dad's radio at Antler......but you probably had a lot of victims that day! lol Not sure what you mean by "cranked up?" Could you explain further exactly what it was Edgar did to the radio/s?? Sorry for the euphemism. "Cranked up" means "turned up fully". It's a fun little story and I didn't know the whole story until Edgar told his side a few years ago. Until recently, all I knew was this: around 1967,my dad, myself, my older brother and a visiting worker got into our car at Antler convention to take the worker to our house. When dad started it up, the radio was blasting full. Dad was pretty quick to flip it off and I think he always thought myself or my brother did it, but he didn't make an issue of it. Then a few years ago, Edgar told the story of going around that convention and turning up the volume on all the cars that had radios and antennae. A little worker discipline I suppose! Anyway, I put 2 and 2 together (pun intended) and realized it was Edgar who turned the radio up on our nice 1963 Oldsmobile!
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2012 15:35:55 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean by "cranked up?" Could you explain further exactly what it was Edgar did to the radio/s?? Sorry for the euphemism. "Cranked up" means "turned up fully". It's a fun little story and I didn't know the whole story until Edgar told his side a few years ago. Until recently, all I knew was this: around 1967,my dad, myself, my older brother and a visiting worker got into our car at Antler convention to take the worker to our house. When dad started it up, the radio was blasting full. Dad was pretty quick to flip it off and I think he always thought myself or my brother did it, but he didn't make an issue of it. Then a few years ago, Edgar told the story of going around that convention and turning up the volume on all the cars that had radios and antennae. A little worker discipline I suppose! Anyway, I put 2 and 2 together (pun intended) and realized it was Edgar who turned the radio up on our nice 1963 Oldsmobile! LOl too funny!! What year was that CD was it 1967? If so I was there that year too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2012 16:27:55 GMT -5
Sorry for the euphemism. "Cranked up" means "turned up fully". It's a fun little story and I didn't know the whole story until Edgar told his side a few years ago. Until recently, all I knew was this: around 1967,my dad, myself, my older brother and a visiting worker got into our car at Antler convention to take the worker to our house. When dad started it up, the radio was blasting full. Dad was pretty quick to flip it off and I think he always thought myself or my brother did it, but he didn't make an issue of it. Then a few years ago, Edgar told the story of going around that convention and turning up the volume on all the cars that had radios and antennae. A little worker discipline I suppose! Anyway, I put 2 and 2 together (pun intended) and realized it was Edgar who turned the radio up on our nice 1963 Oldsmobile! LOl too funny!! What year was that CD was it 1967? If so I was there that year too. It would have to be 1967 because that was about the right age for me and if that was only done one year by Edgar, that was the year he was there. Anyway, I was there in 1967 regardless as I was there for at least 18 consecutive years ending in the early '70's. Small world eh? I never thought there would be snow in Antler in July!
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 14, 2012 17:16:05 GMT -5
Oh Good!
I was hoping that "he cranked up" (in Canada) didn't mean the same as "he broke off" some radio antennas.
Never heard of that being done at conv. before tho...
Edgar - did you or did you know of any other workers ever do that at other conv?
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Post by snow on Sept 14, 2012 19:13:34 GMT -5
LOl too funny!! What year was that CD was it 1967? If so I was there that year too. It would have to be 1967 because that was about the right age for me and if that was only done one year by Edgar, that was the year he was there. Anyway, I was there in 1967 regardless as I was there for at least 18 consecutive years ending in the early '70's. Small world eh? I never thought there would be snow in Antler in July! LOL, I should probably let you know I recently changed my name.... However, yes small world. I actually remember that convention fairly well. I would have been 11 years old and still professing. The next year is when I quit professing.
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julio
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Post by julio on Sept 17, 2012 14:00:41 GMT -5
Bouncing back to the original question, we were told by a West Coast worker that there was a world-wide meeting in Europe back in the 1930's, and policies were instituted at that time. Although, when the workers returned to their areas, there were different applications. So, some were giving 6 months, then allowing fellowship, others not unless divorcing current partners, some leaving it to between God and individuals, and some kicked out of meetings. God is not the author of confusion! That should speak!
Also heard that several years after that, ET met with the East Coast overseer and other older brothers to discuss this issue and could not reach agreement. They were all asked to pray on the issue for a year, and return and have another meeting. ET stated he was not going to pray about it any more, his mind was made up, end of discussions!
In Washington, a worker in about 1995, stated that there was a precedent: "if a divorced/remarried person had not been baptised (in this fellowship), then they were free to enjoy full fellowship, including the emblems." Perhaps that is where the discrepancy lies. Some people that were professing are being allowed to participate, and some not. Well, it must generally come down to whether they were baptised or not. I personally know of two marriages in WA that, although D&R, they were allowed to participate because of not having been baptised.
ET was so totally harsh, and so was TS. I knew them both. During their years of power, many people who were professing, and chose to marry a divorced person, were asked not to attend meetings any more. Not just 'not take part', but they were not allowed to even attend. And I know at least 5 in that situation. I also am aware that the current overseer in WA, MH, has been seeking out some, and welcoming them back into meetings (although currently he's not able to offer them full fellowship).
This past spring, there was a meeting in South America to discuss this issue, and several overseers were there. Sadly, the influence of ET is still strong in some of his 'spiritual decendants', and they could not come into agreement.
I noticed on a convention list, that there were West Coast workers at East Coast conventions with BB and LS, and earnestly pray that this whole issue is being kept alive and God may work His miracles with the hearts of those in responsible positions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 13:12:38 GMT -5
Walter Pollock, Dale Shultz, Harold Hilton and Richard Wulf would likely not want to deviate too quickly from Uncle Eldon's standards, as they see them.
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Post by Greg on Sept 23, 2012 13:30:52 GMT -5
Walter Pollock, Dale Shultz, Harold Hilton and Richard Wulf would likely not want to deviate too quickly from Uncle Eldon's standards, as they see them. How much time would be not too quickly? Do you think they want to deviate from some or all of Eldon's standards?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 14:16:01 GMT -5
Walter Pollock, Dale Shultz, Harold Hilton and Richard Wulf would likely not want to deviate too quickly from Uncle Eldon's standards, as they see them. How much time would be not too quickly? Do you think they want to deviate from some or all of Eldon's standards?I suspect they have bought into the "unchanging way'' concept and are therefore unable to change from Eldon's standards to a large extent.
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Post by JO on Sept 23, 2012 15:30:19 GMT -5
I suspect they have bought into the "unchanging way'' concept and are therefore unable to change from Eldon's standards to a large extent. I believe the "way of God" is the leading of the Spirit. The children of God are those who are led by the Spirit, and this concept is unchanging. However the "way of the friends and workers" is changing as we speak. It cannot help but change, because the world is changing. Insisting that all professing women wear black stockings and hats as "signs of life" wouldn't work anymore. Lying about the history of the fellowship will no longer work for an increasingly connected and better informed fellowship. Nor will covering up sexual abuse work for much longer. If the ministry won't do the right thing, then secular authorities will impose their own solutions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 15:49:50 GMT -5
The truth is that the Way of God is ALL about change.
It is about changing from wrong to right, from bad to good, from hate to love, from proud to humble, from self focused to humanity focused, from discord to harmony........and the list goes on.
To believe that you have arrived at a perfect church system and all that is needed is the status quo.....is a delusion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 16:45:50 GMT -5
The Korean war generation is dying out. WW II generation has all but died away. A younger educated generation is coming to the age of responsibility. The workers can turn a blind eye and ear to some issues for awhile and then the issue will go away. Soon, they will be glad to get anyone who is willing to go to meetings, I believe. Reproduction has kept the group alive and smaller families is limiting the numbers as well.
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Post by JO on Sept 23, 2012 18:28:35 GMT -5
The truth is that the Way of God is ALL about change. It is about changing from wrong to right, from bad to good, from hate to love, from proud to humble, from self focused to humanity focused, from discord to harmony........and the list goes on. I believe the first workers understood that. Over time some were excommunicated and others got set in their ways, insisting that their successors maintain the status quo. It went from a young people's church to an old people's church. The "boy's and girls" aged over time so it was no longer run by zealous young people willing and able to critically examine the traditions they'd been raised with. Maintaining the status quo became a high priority, along with the "descending order of submission" doctrine. From a rejection of hierarchy in those first years, the fellowship evolved so that hierarchy became essential and considered to be "God's order". In the following quotes, Alfred Magowan gives us a glimpse into the motivation of those early workers. ......................... ...................... ......................... ........................ Tramp preachers did everything but sweat blood in the days of their going forth in strange lands, and without visible means of support. They knew what it was to live on raw turnips in Scotland, and on oranges in California. They also knew what it was to go for days without anything to eat; and I can speak with authority about it, seeing that I was one of them. We slept under the stars, in schools and churches and halls and empty store buildings -- with neither bed nor bed covering. We tramped through snow from morning to night in more than 40 degrees of frost. And, speaking for myself, I know what it is to have my tramp-preaching companion rub the frost out of a frost-bitten ear with snow. We were tramps by tramping, but we never begged. We were preachers by calling, but we never took up a collection. We worked in the daytime, when people were responsive enough to our preaching at night, to, asked (sic) us into their houses to eat and to sleep, We looked about to see if anything needed to be done on their premises or in their fields: so as not to be burdensome to them.... .... this was how it was: An experiment in faith that in forsaking the world and everything that was in it, and launching out on an unknown sea, we would neither founder by storms nor by losing our bearings to run on uncharted rocks. An experiment in following Jesus, free from all encumbrances whatsoever. Having nothing that we might learn how to possess all things. Turning away from all forms of religious and ecclesiastical climbing: scared into it perhaps by the dreadful things Jesus said in the 23rd of Matthew. So, come what might, we would never be guilty of taking any kind of title or honour -- considering that the world has not changed from what it was when He said it hated Him and dishonoured Him. We were determined to stand FOR all He had stood for, and AGAINST all that He was against. And considering His terrible indictment of the religious rulers of His time, which He ended in these very dreadful words "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" we would have been afraid to be like them in any outward or inward particular. So we dressed in workmen's clothes. and thus ensured that we would never get salutations for what is called "the cloth." And having seen how one of the strongest powers ever known in this world gained that power by going directly against what our Lord said in the simple matter of the use (or abuse) of the name "Father," we steered well clear of that shocking pitfall: having noticed that it meant going down and down to ever deeper depths of spiritual degradation, while (strange as it was!) rising to ever greater heights of ecclesiastical power and glory and monopolistic rule.... ....An experiment in Brotherhood where all would be on one level: having regard to what Jesus said against Hierarchy or one above another: "All ye are brethren" being our headline.
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2012 18:45:54 GMT -5
The truth is that the Way of God is ALL about change. It is about changing from wrong to right, from bad to good, from hate to love, from proud to humble, from self focused to humanity focused, from discord to harmony........and the list goes on. To believe that you have arrived at a perfect church system and all that is needed is the status quo.....is a delusion. That's how I think too. As long as there is life there is a constant change as we understand things better.
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Post by snow on Sept 23, 2012 18:49:11 GMT -5
The truth is that the Way of God is ALL about change. It is about changing from wrong to right, from bad to good, from hate to love, from proud to humble, from self focused to humanity focused, from discord to harmony........and the list goes on. I believe the first workers understood that. Over time some were excommunicated and others got set in their ways, insisting that their successors maintain the status quo. It went from a young people's church to an old people's church. The "boy's and girls" aged over time so it was no longer run by zealous young people willing and able to critically examine the traditions they'd been raised with. Maintaining the status quo became a high priority, along with the "descending order of submission" doctrine. From a rejection of hierarchy in those first years, the fellowship evolved so that hierarchy became essential and considered to be "God's order". In the following quotes, Alfred Magowan gives us a glimpse into the motivation of those early workers. ......................... ...................... ......................... ........................ Tramp preachers did everything but sweat blood in the days of their going forth in strange lands, and without visible means of support. They knew what it was to live on raw turnips in Scotland, and on oranges in California. They also knew what it was to go for days without anything to eat; and I can speak with authority about it, seeing that I was one of them. We slept under the stars, in schools and churches and halls and empty store buildings -- with neither bed nor bed covering. We tramped through snow from morning to night in more than 40 degrees of frost. And, speaking for myself, I know what it is to have my tramp-preaching companion rub the frost out of a frost-bitten ear with snow. We were tramps by tramping, but we never begged. We were preachers by calling, but we never took up a collection. We worked in the daytime, when people were responsive enough to our preaching at night, to, asked (sic) us into their houses to eat and to sleep, We looked about to see if anything needed to be done on their premises or in their fields: so as not to be burdensome to them.... .... this was how it was: An experiment in faith that in forsaking the world and everything that was in it, and launching out on an unknown sea, we would neither founder by storms nor by losing our bearings to run on uncharted rocks. An experiment in following Jesus, free from all encumbrances whatsoever. Having nothing that we might learn how to possess all things. Turning away from all forms of religious and ecclesiastical climbing: scared into it perhaps by the dreadful things Jesus said in the 23rd of Matthew. So, come what might, we would never be guilty of taking any kind of title or honour -- considering that the world has not changed from what it was when He said it hated Him and dishonoured Him. We were determined to stand FOR all He had stood for, and AGAINST all that He was against. And considering His terrible indictment of the religious rulers of His time, which He ended in these very dreadful words "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" we would have been afraid to be like them in any outward or inward particular. So we dressed in workmen's clothes. and thus ensured that we would never get salutations for what is called "the cloth." And having seen how one of the strongest powers ever known in this world gained that power by going directly against what our Lord said in the simple matter of the use (or abuse) of the name "Father," we steered well clear of that shocking pitfall: having noticed that it meant going down and down to ever deeper depths of spiritual degradation, while (strange as it was!) rising to ever greater heights of ecclesiastical power and glory and monopolistic rule.... ....An experiment in Brotherhood where all would be on one level: having regard to what Jesus said against Hierarchy or one above another: "All ye are brethren" being our headline. That's how my father remembers the workers that his father and step mother professed through. They lived with the family on the prairies and life was not easy. They worked along side the family and dad remembered them fondly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 19:03:12 GMT -5
Dale Bors, Walter Pollock, Dale Shultz and a few more won't be around much longer. Makes one wonder about the next generation of older/senior workers in California and the west coast.
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