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Post by What Hat on Aug 15, 2012 16:08:21 GMT -5
Based on the descriptions given in Donna Johnson’s book, do you thing David Terrell’s ministry was a “cult”. If so, why? If not, why not? If possible, try to base your reasoning on information provided in the book. I don't think so. First of all, I don't accept any definition of 'cult' based on theological arguments. That's a non-starter for me. I'm also skeptical of sociological approaches to determining which groups are cults. Those kinds of arguments do hold more water though. The problem is that I've never found any social group that is free of abhorrent dysfunctional behaviour that is the result of group function. Most of us carry around some kind of concept of what we consider "normal" and what we find "weird". These concepts are not based on purely objective rationale; in fact, in establishing our own sense of normal we block or minimize negative abhorrent behaviours, and we exaggerate negative tendencies in unfamiliar cultures that are outside our own 'normal'. I personally don't see any terrible, unusual behaviours in Terrell's people. There's quite a number of things to dislike, but one would find similar negative tendencies in many social groups. I'm not minimizing some of the negatives about the group; some things that happened were pretty awful. But you would find the same or worse elsewhere if you dig beneath the surface. For me, the most productive kind of conversation is analyze the individual bad things that happened, and try to deduce why they happened.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Aug 15, 2012 18:17:53 GMT -5
I have strong feelings about this book, but haven't been able to sort through them. Is it a cult? I don't think so. Did he have a cult following? Yeah. Is that a contradiction? probably. Is he a huckster? probably. Does he take money he shouldn't? unquestionably. Does he sow false hope? yes. Is it false hope if he preaches eternal salvation? that's different. Does he deliver a service, then, for which a charge is appropriate? yes, though that doesn't mean his charge is appropriate to his service.
This stuff is still very confusing to me.
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Post by exbless on Aug 15, 2012 19:16:27 GMT -5
Remember Ralph Myers ? Now he could sew a tent !
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lauri
Senior Member
Posts: 324
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Post by lauri on Aug 17, 2012 9:22:22 GMT -5
I've translated cult, for myself, as a religion that is dangerous and or damaging. so in that respect I'd consider many religions to be cultish. (also why I happily avoid religion)
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Post by What Hat on Aug 17, 2012 16:55:10 GMT -5
I have strong feelings about this book, but haven't been able to sort through them. Is it a cult? I don't think so. Did he have a cult following? Yeah. Is that a contradiction? probably. Is he a huckster? probably. Does he take money he shouldn't? unquestionably. Does he sow false hope? yes. Is it false hope if he preaches eternal salvation? that's different. Does he deliver a service, then, for which a charge is appropriate? yes, though that doesn't mean his charge is appropriate to his service. This stuff is still very confusing to me. I tend to reserve opinions if I don't have enough information. I didn't see systemic abuses such as depriving people of all their income, holding people against their will or ritual suicide, but that doesn't mean the Terrell group sociology is "healthy". I'm more convinced than ever though that groups function best with an elected board, transparent accounting, independent reporting, and so on, regardless of whether they are religious or not.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Aug 19, 2012 17:38:52 GMT -5
If I'm getting ahead of things, slow me down. I've two questions to discuss:
1. What do you think of Brother Terrell's fasting at the end? 2. What do you think about his son, and the dream of healing him?
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Post by snow on Aug 19, 2012 20:10:17 GMT -5
If I'm getting ahead of things, slow me down. I've two questions to discuss: 1. What do you think of Brother Terrell's fasting at the end? 2. What do you think about his son, and the dream of healing him? 1. He was unbalanced and fanatic in my opinion. However, once he set himself on the course of the diet, he had to continue it or he thought he faced losing 'face' with his followers. 2. Same thing for his son. He was supposed to be a healer and if he could not heal his own son, how would that look to his followers? He was also paranoid of doctors because of an experience he had in his early life. Also, his essential lack of education amplified that paranoia to some degree. However, I think most of it was saving 'face' again.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 21, 2012 8:42:41 GMT -5
If I'm getting ahead of things, slow me down. I've two questions to discuss: 1. What do you think of Brother Terrell's fasting at the end? 2. What do you think about his son, and the dream of healing him? With respect to the second question, religion seems to have this property of keeping people ignorant, and avoiding any challenge to their particular sacred cows. Terrell had grown to mistrust the medical profession, and through the medical condition of his son found evidence to support his conclusions against the medical profession. Had he stuck with conventional channels a diagnosis and possible remedy of his son's condition might have been found earlier in life, and possibly, he would have lived longer. But it's also possible (but far less likely) that misdiagnosis might have worsened his son's condition. That is, non-intervention did seem to "cure" the bleeding every time it occurred. I have to add, that religion can also contribute to personal growth, through attacking other "sacred cows". So there is a win and a loss here. For example, Terrell or his people could never be accused of an undue trust and reliance on the medical system, which is a general weakness in society today. People do have to "heal themselves" and take the primary responsibility for their own physical well being.
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Post by Happy Feet on Aug 21, 2012 15:44:28 GMT -5
I got the book from the library but it will be another week or two before i can really get to reading it. Read the first 5 pages.
There was a book in the news which stated it was a present top seller but I lost the title. It sounds like it would be a good one to read - if I knew the title
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Post by What Hat on Aug 21, 2012 22:17:00 GMT -5
I got the book from the library but it will be another week or two before i can really get to reading it. Read the first 5 pages. There was a book in the news which stated it was a present top seller but I lost the title. It sounds like it would be a good one to read - if I knew the title We'll look forward to your comments, happyfeet.
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Post by sacerdotal on Aug 25, 2012 10:35:12 GMT -5
Based on the descriptions given in Donna Johnson’s book, do you think David Terrell’s ministry was a “cult”. If so, why? If not, why not? If possible, try to base your reasoning on information provided in the book. Absolutely I believe that David Terrell's ministry was a cult based on the account from the book. The second definition for the word "cult" at Dictionary.com (the most commonly understood definition) is "an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult." But, like what, I don't like using the word cult because the meaning is so broad as to describe any denomination or religion or set of beliefs. I prefer to be more specific. David Terrell is a fraud, a liar, and a charlatan. And he deceives and enriches himself in the name of God. (Artistotle said: "We are what we continually do.")I decided to Google more about David Terrell. And just like the book "Holy Ghost Girl" described: The man is a liar. The man breaks up families to feed his ego (his imaginary prophecies). He takes advantage of the weak, the lame, the poor, and the sick- the opposite of what a minister of God is supposed to do. He is still spreading the warped gospel of himself to Africa and taking advantage of the weak and superstitious there. The following newspaper account is from Arusha, Tanzania regarding David Terrell: (see if you can spot one of the many lies (ahem, that he raised his son from the dead and that he was still alive in 2004!)) The man had no shame! In the following article read how David Terrell begs for money from the poor and weak- promising that God will bless them- and then even accepts a goldfish from a man that had nothing else to offer! I like how the newspaper reporter noted that after the meeting concluded, David Terrell took the bucket of money and drove away in his Mercedes into the night. It brought to my mind, the image of a cockroach scurrying away into the darkness.And he broke apart families: as described in the following newspaper account from Oregon whereby a man's wife loaded up their kids and moved to Bangs, TX.And the following from a message board (whether it is true or not, who knows, but I tend to belief that much of it is true) regarding what happened to those that moved to Bangs, TX and what they were supposedly told. Newspaper account of his income tax evasion conviction: he legally changed his name to "Daniel Hugh Ford" and kept two driver's licenses to "conceal his undue assets." One preacher in Houston said that he became "disgusted" with David Terrell after Terrell ordered him to seek money from the poor in Guatemala and Honduras. The Houston preacher also said that David Terrell "frowned" on offerings of less than $1,000. When two charlatans get together:img846.imageshack.us/img846/628/davidterrellronaldcoyne.jpgNewspaper account of a David Terrell mission (and a death): img196.imageshack.us/img196/203/davidterrelltimesdaily.jpg[Mod: I have changed the two images above to an external link, to prevent sideways scrolling.]
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Post by snow on Aug 25, 2012 10:42:48 GMT -5
Wow, thanks for that post. Seems to be no lengths this man will go to bring pain to people to stoke his ego and line his purse. I have always felt that anything that is supposedly channelled from a higher source should be free. After all you aren't the source, merely the channel. If people need to live, they can work at a job and provide the other on the side. I'm pretty sure a lot of people would disagree with me though.
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Post by Happy Feet on Aug 25, 2012 16:43:27 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Aug 25, 2012 18:13:49 GMT -5
Only seems to be able to preach in the bible belt of the states and is now turning to Africa. Some close to those locations should head on over and see what it's all about... Could be very interesting way to spend an evening.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 26, 2012 9:08:37 GMT -5
Only seems to be able to preach in the bible belt of the states and is now turning to Africa. Some close to those locations should head on over and see what it's all about... Could be very interesting way to spend an evening. And that's why they say there is no such thing as 'bad' publicity.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Aug 28, 2012 12:38:42 GMT -5
sorry I've been a bit quiet, my son up and decided to get married...
I was really curious about the deal with his son, because he seemed afraid to try to heal him...fear that it wouldn't work, I assume, and the repercussions both career-wise and hope-wise.
It is sometimes better to live with hope than to take the step and dash what you have. It is a good thing that Christianity's greatest hope...an eternal afterlife...can never be proven or disproven.
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Post by sacerdotal on Aug 29, 2012 12:02:02 GMT -5
sorry I've been a bit quiet, my son up and decided to get married... I was really curious about the deal with his son, because he seemed afraid to try to heal him...fear that it wouldn't work, I assume, and the repercussions both career-wise and hope-wise. It is sometimes better to live with hope than to take the step and dash what you have. It is a good thing that Christianity's greatest hope...an eternal afterlife...can never be proven or disproven. Congratulations to your son and his new bride! You ask a good question regarding perhaps why David Terrell didn't try to heal his son. I tend to think, however, that he looked upon his "getting better" after each episode as an example of "healing".
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 3, 2012 2:06:27 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the book but being real life makes it sad. I enjoyed the authors writing style.
I'd never heard of David until I read the book. Seems as if Davids movement has dwindled right down to practical nothing. I believe he started out genuine and possibly with the anointing of God but his ego got the better of him and like many men who do well, his lust for women got the better of him.
I believe a lot of the healings were genuine healings of peopel who came off the street, what do others think? I have no trouble going to crusades like this and believe God is with many of the Evangelists, but many turn bad fast. I don't mind if you tell me I am wrong.
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Post by sacerdotal on Sept 3, 2012 11:12:37 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the book but being real life makes it sad. I enjoyed the authors writing style. I'd never heard of David until I read the book. Seems as if Davids movement has dwindled right down to practical nothing. I believe he started out genuine and possibly with the anointing of God but his ego got the better of him and like many men who do well, his lust for women got the better of him. I believe a lot of the healings were genuine healings of peopel who came off the street, what do others think? I have no trouble going to crusades like this and believe God is with many of the Evangelists, but many turn bad fast. I don't mind if you tell me I am wrong. I do not believe that anyone was healed. There is a newspaper account of another fellow that was in a revival with him that claimed to be able to see via his plastic eye. But, he wouldn't let third parties test the claim. Under non-biased, third party checks into most claims- almost all healing claims are debunked.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 3, 2012 14:22:36 GMT -5
The newspaper article posted above said he was checked out by surgeons who said that he did have a plastic eye and could see from it.
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Post by sacerdotal on Sept 8, 2012 11:33:22 GMT -5
The newspaper article posted above said he was checked out by surgeons who said that he did have a plastic eye and could see from it. Right- but only from doctor's that he approved. When asked to have other doctor's check it out- he rejected it. The following account is probably typical: When the late Ronald Coyne, a small-time “healer” from Oklahoma, came to our community, claiming that he could miraculously see through a “plastic eye,” we offered to pay all expenses if he would submit to testing administered by a qualified ophthalmologist. He declined the offer and threatened to sue me. I urged him to do so, for the courtroom is a real arena for the examination of evidence. He took his “magic eye” con game and left town.www.christiancourier.com/articles/1421-modern-miracles-true-or-false
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Post by What Hat on Sept 8, 2012 13:14:23 GMT -5
Sacerdotal, I just now had a chance to review the excellent trove of clippings which you posted. Even allowing for the kind of selection and sensationalization that occurs in newspapers, I have to agree with your characterization of the man, and it appears that Donna Johnson's view was more empathetic. The correct clinical term might be charismatic sociopath. I know the personality type; they often do very well in sales, and unfortunately, religion is often just another thing to be sold.
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Post by x terrellite on Sept 14, 2012 16:35:57 GMT -5
Based on the descriptions given in Donna Johnson’s book, do you think David Terrell’s ministry was a “cult”. If so, why? If not, why not? If possible, try to base your reasoning on information provided in the book. Absolutely I believe that David Terrell's ministry was a cult based on the account from the book. The second definition for the word "cult" at Dictionary.com (the most commonly understood definition) is "an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult." But, like what, I don't like using the word cult because the meaning is so broad as to describe any denomination or religion or set of beliefs. I prefer to be more specific. David Terrell is a fraud, a liar, and a charlatan. And he deceives and enriches himself in the name of God. (Artistotle said: "We are what we continually do.")I decided to Google more about David Terrell. And just like the book "Holy Ghost Girl" described: The man is a liar. The man breaks up families to feed his ego (his imaginary prophecies). He takes advantage of the weak, the lame, the poor, and the sick- the opposite of what a minister of God is supposed to do. He is still spreading the warped gospel of himself to Africa and taking advantage of the weak and superstitious there. The following newspaper account is from Arusha, Tanzania regarding David Terrell: (see if you can spot one of the many lies (ahem, that he raised his son from the dead and that he was still alive in 2004!)) The man had no shame! In the following article read how David Terrell begs for money from the poor and weak- promising that God will bless them- and then even accepts a goldfish from a man that had nothing else to offer! I like how the newspaper reporter noted that after the meeting concluded, David Terrell took the bucket of money and drove away in his Mercedes into the night. It brought to my mind, the image of a cockroach scurrying away into the darkness.And he broke apart families: as described in the following newspaper account from Oregon whereby a man's wife loaded up their kids and moved to Bangs, TX.And the following from a message board (whether it is true or not, who knows, but I tend to belief that much of it is true) regarding what happened to those that moved to Bangs, TX and what they were supposedly told. Newspaper account of his income tax evasion conviction: he legally changed his name to "Daniel Hugh Ford" and kept two driver's licenses to "conceal his undue assets." One preacher in Houston said that he became "disgusted" with David Terrell after Terrell ordered him to seek money from the poor in Guatemala and Honduras. The Houston preacher also said that David Terrell "frowned" on offerings of less than $1,000. When two charlatans get together:img846.imageshack.us/img846/628/davidterrellronaldcoyne.jpgNewspaper account of a David Terrell mission (and a death): img196.imageshack.us/img196/203/davidterrelltimesdaily.jpg[Mod: I have changed the two images above to an external link, to prevent sideways scrolling.]
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Post by eterrellite on Sept 14, 2012 17:13:08 GMT -5
As a terrellite from the time i was born to my mid twenties,let me tell you first hand Donnas book is absolutley true.As a matter of fact,it white whashes the the entire Terrell experience.I currently live in Brownwood texas which is 9 miles from Bangs.My parent moved us here when we were children because terrell said the world was about to be destroyed due to bombs that were going to be sent over here from Russia.He said that all of the major cities in America were going to be destroyed and God would spare us (his people) if we sold out ( sell everything we had) and gave it all to him so he could take the gospel to the ends of the earth.He would prophesy for hours on end about the world ending and how we would wish we were dead rather than be here through all of this.I have 3 friends who actually committed suicide because they couldnot handle all of the things terrell prophesied down here.There were times he would tell his body guards to get to the doors and not let anyone leave till he was through preaching.He always would say that God would kill us or whatever was closter to our hearts than ourselves if we walked out with even one dime in our pockets.He did sell us the land in small plots that was next door to the church ( it was named Julie Acres after the then pastors daughter,Julie).He did refuse us titles afterwards and said we could just live there till we died and then it would revert back to the church ( which of course was him as his name is on the papers and listed at the brown county app district as owner).My question then was,if the world is ending as you say in the 70s,what does the church need with the land as none of us will be here and why did you not say we could and would never get the title in the first place ?? They were and are money grubbing godless bastards.They curse,they are racist,they steal ( from their church people),they fornicate,the commit adultry,they gamble,They do so much till i can't begin to tell you.How do i know? I have worked for and with and around them.Raised in it and only ever having been in it,i was so scared to leave and had no clue as to where to go if i did.It was so hard for me.You might say i should have known better but if all your life all you have ever had is oatmeal and your parents tell you that everything else will kill you,you tend to stick with oatmeal no matter how sick and tired of it you are.
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Post by eterrellite on Sept 14, 2012 17:27:47 GMT -5
And yes,it is a cult.Yes,he is still here in Bangs Texas scaring all of those who will still come.There is one thing different though now.He said,(a few months ago right up there in Bangs from the pulpit) that he never told anyone that this was a blessed area or to move here.He said he told everyone that he was moving here and somehow we followed and that people had better stop lying on him.The crowd was so quiet you could hear a pen drop but nobody would speak out.Scared to death of him.They whispered about it later and said how he was lying and of course he did.Why else would we have moved to this God forsaken wilderness? But guess what,most all of them showed up for the night service which re enforced to him that that bunch would follow him any and everywhere no matter what .I personally heard him say he needed help but they needed to be white as they were going to be living in one of his houses.This was last year.The best thing that could happen to terrell is that somehow he end up as poor as he has made his congregation and live to be 1001 years old.Poor,dirty and 1001 years old and tottally sane so he did not forget what he has done to the simplest of Gods people in times past.
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Post by What Hat on Sept 14, 2012 18:49:43 GMT -5
Thanks eterrellite for your witness, and together with sacerdotal's clippings they make an important and interesting post-script to the HGG book. I would note that Donna Johnson was only a participant or observer of Terrell's mission in its early years, so I'm not sure "white washing" is an entirely fair assessment. But clearly whatever was wrong in those years, and there was plenty, subsequently got a lot worse, and there must be a cautionary tale in it for anyone that participates in a high commitment faith group.
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Post by sacerdotal on Sept 15, 2012 9:52:23 GMT -5
You might say i should have known better but if all your life all you have ever had is oatmeal and your parents tell you that everything else will kill you,you tend to stick with oatmeal no matter how sick and tired of it you are. Thank you for adding to the thread. Great quote regarding the oatmeal.
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Post by Happy Feet on Sept 15, 2012 21:03:00 GMT -5
We had a man at church this morning who was on death bed having had a big part of his stomach removed due to cancer. In 1999 he was at a conference and was prayed for. He didn't ask for prayer, just someone stopped the conference and started to pray for him. By the end of the prayer his stomach was restored back to full size. Believe it if you like but he is a man in this country. Here is his webpage. www.turningpointministries.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1&Itemid=28He prayed for some people at our church today and a man who has had polio since he was young who I know quite well, was prayed for and his hands immediately opened and he is rejoicing. His hands were all twisted up before then. Was his polio healed, I don't think so but his crippled up hands were.
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