Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 8:46:55 GMT -5
Does anyone know who the visiting workers will be or have access to a speaking list? It is next weekend, I believe. I always love to know who is speaking at which convention in the eastern US. If anyone attends, I would love to hear a non-biased account of what you saw and heard. I don't know anyone personally in that region. I am wondering if any references were made to CSA in testimonies, sermons etc..
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lauri
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Post by lauri on Jul 27, 2012 11:51:21 GMT -5
hey- that's my old stomping grounds! Haven't been there since '76 though....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 20:26:04 GMT -5
I think Barry Barkley needs to address the crowd on Thursday and also Saturday morning about the CSA issue. Warn parents to keep an eye on their children. BB, we are counting on you to warn the friends about this issue. And ask other eastern US (since the area has a poor track record on approaching the topic) overseers to do likewise. Remind the friends that any inappropriate behavior will be reported to authorities. Mr. Mousseau attended these grounds after leaving Michigan and Wisconsin by the way.
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jello
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Post by jello on Jul 28, 2012 11:45:00 GMT -5
I wonder if the Chappell's who own the grounds will have any responsibility if something like CSA happens during convention. If so, if this ever is ruled in court somewhere in the USA, I wonder if eventually there will not be any conventions on private property.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 28, 2012 14:39:11 GMT -5
I wonder if the Chappell's who own the grounds will have any responsibility if something like CSA happens during convention. If so, if this ever is ruled in court somewhere in the USA, I wonder if eventually there will not be any conventions on private property. Rational cann add his opinion here and I would accept it ken
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Post by JO on Jul 28, 2012 22:07:41 GMT -5
I think Barry Barkley needs to address the crowd on Thursday and also Saturday morning about the CSA issue. Warn parents to keep an eye on their children. BB, we are counting on you to warn the friends about this issue. And ask other eastern US (since the area has a poor track record on approaching the topic) overseers to do likewise. Remind the friends that any inappropriate behavior will be reported to authorities. Mr. Mousseau attended these grounds after leaving Michigan and Wisconsin by the way. The most soul-destroying issues are the least likely to be addressed e.g. - Child sexual abuse.
- Sexual immorality.
- Idolatrous adoration of the ministry/organisation/religious system more than of Christ and the Father.
.......................... ...................... ............................. .......................... Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.
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Post by quizzer on Jul 28, 2012 23:45:28 GMT -5
I wonder if the Chappell's who own the grounds will have any responsibility if something like CSA happens during convention. If so, if this ever is ruled in court somewhere in the USA, I wonder if eventually there will not be any conventions on private property. I could be wrong, but aren't some of the USA conventions owned by a trust?
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 29, 2012 7:15:38 GMT -5
I think Barry Barkley needs to address the crowd on Thursday and also Saturday morning about the CSA issue. Warn parents to keep an eye on their children. BB, we are counting on you to warn the friends about this issue. And ask other eastern US (since the area has a poor track record on approaching the topic) overseers to do likewise. Remind the friends that any inappropriate behavior will be reported to authorities. Mr. Mousseau attended these grounds after leaving Michigan and Wisconsin by the way. The most Ministry-destroying issues are the least likely to be addressed e.g. - Child sexual abuse by the ministry.
- Sexual immorality.by the ministry
encouragement of Idolatrous adoration of the ministry/organisation/religious system more than of Christ and the Father.
.......................... ...................... ............................. .......................... Romans 13:11 And do this, understanding the present time: The hour has already come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh. Forgive me forcorrecting your 3 statements
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 7:42:34 GMT -5
I know for a fact these issues are being addressed in the homes.I think this is a better place to converse about such matters. I am witnessing a new rule of conduct awareness among the workers. Feel free to poo poo this if you like Ken.
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2012 10:24:22 GMT -5
I wonder if the Chappell's who own the grounds will have any responsibility if something like CSA happens during convention. If so, if this ever is ruled in court somewhere in the USA, I wonder if eventually there will not be any conventions on private property. Rational cann add his opinion here and I would accept it ken I have no idea how the farm and grounds are set up from a legal or any other standpoint. I assume, like any entity, they have insurance.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 11:05:15 GMT -5
I think as Eastern US overseer, Barry Barkley needs to be the one to bring up the discussion in front of the crowd. He is the big cheese. That comes with the responsibility of oversight over "God's people and Servants". Barry can start out by thanking them from the quietness before the meetings. Then ask parents to keep an eye on their children. Remind them that problems can happen on convention grounds. And to report any problems. If saints, servants and or visitors misbehave, they will be reported to the law.
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Post by JO on Jul 29, 2012 14:36:56 GMT -5
I know for a fact these issues are being addressed in the homes.I think this is a better place to converse about such matters. I am witnessing a new rule of conduct awareness among the workers. Feel free to poo poo this if you like Ken. There are a lot of good people in this fellowship - both workers and friends. For that reason I believe something good could be salvaged and the fellowship turned around to a more godly direction. If convention is not the right place to address the issues that are destroying the ministry and fellowship, what is the purpose of convention?
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 15:24:03 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention.
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Post by JO on Jul 29, 2012 15:29:54 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention. Did the "not welcome sign" bring about change in Willis Propp's Alberta? Workers stating plainly what they believe and where they stand is the most effective way to bring about change: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=19325&page=1
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 15:35:46 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention. Did the "not welcome sign" bring about change in Willis Propp's Alberta? Workers stating plainly what they velieve and where they stand is the most effective way to bring about change: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=19325&page=1 If that is what you feel,go for it. I'm not going to stand wringing my hands and blaming everything on the workers.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 29, 2012 15:50:54 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention. I disagree. Keeping it in the home is still keeping it behind closed doors. Abuse happens behind closed doors. Openness is the only policy. There could be an abuser in the home and he would like it to be kept there. A bit like an abuser who prefers one on one counselling rather than a group. He has more control on a one on one. Let the whole church talk about it openly. In the homes as well if they wish as this also sends shivers up the abusers spine in that it is getting close to home, but still openly so it can be discussed openly. However, people are less likely to talk if they are told in the privacy of their home. Encourage the people to talk openly to flush out the abusers and so all can be aware of the issue openly rather than just those in the home. It is societies problem and community support is needed. We should be there for one another and it not be just kept in the privacy of the home. The best way for it to be dealt with openly is to talk about it openly so that every one feels free to talk about it openly.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 16:00:57 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention. I disagree. Keeping it in the home is still keeping it behind closed doors. Abuse happens behind closed doors. Openness is the only policy. There could be an abuser in the home and he would like it to be kept there. A bit like an abuser who prefers one on one counselling rather than a group. He has more control on a one on one. Let the whole church talk about it openly. In the homes as well if they wish as this also sends shivers up the abusers spine in that it is getting close to home, but still openly so it can be discussed openly. However, people are less likely to talk if they are told in the privacy of their home. Encourage the people to talk openly to flush out the abusers and so all can be aware of the issue openly rather than just those in the home. It is societies problem and community support is needed. We should be there for one another and it not be just kept in the privacy of the home. The best way for it to be dealt with openly is to talk about it openly so that every one feels free to talk about it openly. This could be true only if all the facts are there. Did you ever play the game gossip, you repeat what you hear. It isn't always accurate. In the case of LW,how could you discuss this at convention? The investigation doesn't have enough evidence to make a statement.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 29, 2012 16:12:18 GMT -5
I know for a fact these issues are being addressed in the homes.I think this is a better place to converse about such matters. I am witnessing a new rule of conduct awareness among the workers. Feel free to poo poo this if you like Ken. Linford Thats good to know and I would encourage that changing conduct is far more important than awareness of conduct. ken
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Post by Happy Feet on Jul 29, 2012 16:18:09 GMT -5
I disagree. Keeping it in the home is still keeping it behind closed doors. Abuse happens behind closed doors. Openness is the only policy. There could be an abuser in the home and he would like it to be kept there. A bit like an abuser who prefers one on one counselling rather than a group. He has more control on a one on one. Let the whole church talk about it openly. In the homes as well if they wish as this also sends shivers up the abusers spine in that it is getting close to home, but still openly so it can be discussed openly. However, people are less likely to talk if they are told in the privacy of their home. Encourage the people to talk openly to flush out the abusers and so all can be aware of the issue openly rather than just those in the home. It is societies problem and community support is needed. We should be there for one another and it not be just kept in the privacy of the home. The best way for it to be dealt with openly is to talk about it openly so that every one feels free to talk about it openly. This could be true only if all the facts are there. Did you ever play the game gossip, you repeat what you hear. It isn't always accurate. In the case of LW,how could you discuss this at convention? The investigation doesn't have enough evidence to make a statement. This thread is about CSA not LW. I totally disagree that openess fosters gossip. Gossip thrives in secrecy. CSA should be spoken openly from the platform at convention so it can be discussed openly. Talking about CSA in the privacy of their home and calling it gossip if people talk about it, is trying to make those who speak out about the issue are the ones in the wrong. Openness is the opposite to gossip and the key to stopping gossip because it is not gossip when spoken about openly. Gossip is talking about it secretly in the quietness of peoples homes.
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 29, 2012 16:19:34 GMT -5
These issues can be settled and should be settled at home by the friends. At a no tolerance level. The owner of the home can say who is accepted into their home. The not welcome sign would soon bring about change. No need for it to be brought up in convention. Linford Once again trying to keep the folks who matter (those good and honest folks) that JO has mentioned thinking the ministry have their interest at heart is foolish when the issue is to hot to touch. Where else will any honest communication be irrefutable and available to all. Linford don't be intimidated by the shame it will bring but the cleansing. JMT Ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 29, 2012 16:23:01 GMT -5
If that is what you feel,go for it. I'm not going to stand wringing my hands and blaming everything on the workers. Lin Seems a strange behavior for one who Loves the truth the way you have projected Ken
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Post by kencoolidge on Jul 29, 2012 16:27:01 GMT -5
I disagree. Keeping it in the home is still keeping it behind closed doors. Abuse happens behind closed doors. Openness is the only policy. There could be an abuser in the home and he would like it to be kept there. A bit like an abuser who prefers one on one counselling rather than a group. He has more control on a one on one. Let the whole church talk about it openly. In the homes as well if they wish as this also sends shivers up the abusers spine in that it is getting close to home, but still openly so it can be discussed openly. However, people are less likely to talk if they are told in the privacy of their home. Encourage the people to talk openly to flush out the abusers and so all can be aware of the issue openly rather than just those in the home. It is societies problem and community support is needed. We should be there for one another and it not be just kept in the privacy of the home. The best way for it to be dealt with openly is to talk about it openly so that every one feels free to talk about it openly. This could be true only if all the facts are there. Did you ever play the game gossip, you repeat what you hear. It isn't always accurate. In the case of LW,how could you discuss this at convention? The investigation doesn't have enough evidence to make a statement. Lin IH and many others are not gossip but reality. Like Happy Feet Honesty is the only way to safeguard the innocent and get the fellowship back on track ken ken
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2012 16:41:19 GMT -5
This thread is about CSA not LW. Maybe instead of focusing on CSA the focus should be on all types of abuse. I agree. Truth is the killer of gossip.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 16:58:22 GMT -5
This could be true only if all the facts are there. Did you ever play the game gossip, you repeat what you hear. It isn't always accurate. In the case of LW,how could you discuss this at convention? The investigation doesn't have enough evidence to make a statement. Lin IH and many others are not gossip but reality. Like Happy Feet Honesty is the only way to safeguard the innocent and get the fellowship back on track ken ken I didn't say to gossip. I said talk without facts is gossip. Talk with facts is validity.
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Post by JO on Jul 29, 2012 17:41:51 GMT -5
If that is what you feel,go for it. I'm not going to stand wringing my hands and blaming everything on the workers. Lin, workers run the convention system, the special meetings system, and the gospel meetings system. Because no one except workers gets to speak from the platform, don't you think they should take most of the responsibility for resolving the issues that are destroying the ministry and fellowship? If they're unable or unwilling to address the issues they should get out of the way and let others do it. For example: With child sexual abuse, why not invite a professional to address the congregation, or to send a circular letter? Why have a convention, if the issues that are destroying the fellowship are not addressed there? Is something not working when men can preach from the platform and then go out to sexually abuse the fellowship's children? If this doesn't wake people up, what will?
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Post by JO on Jul 29, 2012 17:48:33 GMT -5
I didn't say to gossip. I said talk without facts is gossip. Talk with facts is validity. Fact: Many of the fellowship's children have been sexually abused by workers, elders and friends. Fact: Many people who were sexually abused as children are not receiving the support from the church that they should be receiving. Fact: There is still a lack of clarity around where the ministry and fellowship stands with respect to child sexual abuse.
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2012 18:57:25 GMT -5
Lin, workers run the convention system, the special meetings system, and the gospel meetings system. Because no one except workers gets to speak from the platform, don't you think they should take most of the responsibility for resolving the issues that are destroying the ministry and fellowship? If they're unable or unwilling to address the issues they should get out of the way and let others do it. For example: With child sexual abuse, why not invite a professional to address the congregation, or to send a circular letter? I agree. And professionals from the agencies that deal with abuse and how incidents should be reported. I think moving cases of abuse from a spiritual arena to a purely criminal arena is the way to get people to listen and act. Abuse is a crime. Who cares what the criminals do in their spare time? This leads to situations where phrases like "Oh he has repented and it won't happen again" or "We have to forgive as the bible says." and in the meantime there is more abuse. The criminals use their spirituality to continue their criminal activity.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2012 19:35:08 GMT -5
I didn't say to gossip. I said talk without facts is gossip. Talk with facts is validity. Fact: Many of the fellowship's children have been sexually abused by workers, elders and friends. Fact: Many people who were sexually abused as children are not receiving the support from the church that they should be receiving. Fact: There is still a lack of clarity around where the ministry and fellowship stands with respect to child sexual abuse. I agree JO with what you are saying and deplore it as much or more as you and others here do. It brings shame upon the good among us. Does that make right to say all workers elders and friends should be held under suspicion. If so let's have a Salem Witch trial and accuse anyone we want without suspicion. As Rational says make it a crime and treat it as such.
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