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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 15, 2012 13:57:09 GMT -5
I was fascinated with how PI was able to deal with each problem as they arose. When something came up he would figure a way to deal with it.
He really was using his own brain, his ability to think something through, yet he would give one of his gods the reason for his help in thinking it through!
I would not agree.
I felt it was his own mind working very well.
However, his own mind working so well, always being curious, even about religion, was what came to the fore to help him.
Saying his prayers was part of his schedule, & helped him stay calm. IMO that is why people believe prayer, meditation, works.
Their actual prayer isn't fulfilled, but the psychological results make them sometimes better able to deal with problems.
It is when they believe their prayers will actually be answered and they aren't; that can be devastating.
That is the huge problem I have with all religions.
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Post by placid-void on Jun 15, 2012 14:45:14 GMT -5
I was fascinated with how PI was able to deal with each problem as they arose. When something came up he would figure a way to deal with it. He really was using his own brain, his ability to think something through, yet he would give one of his gods the reason for his help in thinking it through!I would not agree. I felt it was his own mind working very well. However, his own mind working so well, always being curious, even about religion, was what came to the fore to help him. Saying his prayers was part of his schedule, & helped him stay calm. IMO that is why people believe prayer, meditation, works. Their actual prayer isn't fulfilled, but the psychological results make them sometimes better able to deal with problems. It is when they believe their prayers will actually be answered and they aren't; that can be devastating. That is the huge problem I have with all religions. I guess I have always been unclear as to why these two trains of thought are incompatible. Might one not be able to use their own brain and have the ability to think something through and yet still conceive of a power greater than self? How does one say, "I am, because of all that has gone before." or "I will be, because of all that shall come hence"?
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jun 15, 2012 15:43:22 GMT -5
remember, as we go, that this is a story promised to "make you believe in God."
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Post by placid-void on Jun 15, 2012 18:11:27 GMT -5
remember, as we go, that this is a story promised to "make you believe in God." Would you mind expanding on this, I don't think I understand your point.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jun 15, 2012 18:25:07 GMT -5
remember, as we go, that this is a story promised to "make you believe in God." Would you mind expanding on this, I don't think I understand your point. This is how the book began, in the Author's Note. Page XIII. Then the elderly man said, "I have a story that will make you believe in God."This is fascinating because once the excitement begins, God nearly disappears. You have to keep the promise in the back of your mind, remembering all the while you're reading, that at some point it'll make you believe in God. Did it happen??
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Post by placid-void on Jun 15, 2012 18:42:14 GMT -5
Would you mind expanding on this, I don't think I understand your point. This is how the book began, in the Author's Note. Page XIII. Then the elderly man said, "I have a story that will make you believe in God."This is fascinating because once the excitement begins, God nearly disappears. You have to keep the promise in the back of your mind, remembering all the while you're reading, that at some point it'll make you believe in God. Did it happen?? Got ya, thanks for the clarification. I would have to answer the direct question: "Did the book make me beleive in God" in the negative. No, the book did not make me believe in God. Rather, I would say the book gave me a new/different perspective on fear. One of the "short term" (I have only read the book in the past month) consequences of the book has been to cause me to think about my beliefs/understanding of God with less fear.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 15, 2012 19:18:26 GMT -5
Would you mind expanding on this, I don't think I understand your point. This is how the book began, in the Author's Note. Page XIII. Then the elderly man said, "I have a story that will make you believe in God."This is fascinating because once the excitement begins, God nearly disappears. You have to keep the promise in the back of your mind, remembering all the while you're reading, that at some point it'll make you believe in God. Did it happen??[/
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 16, 2012 15:07:37 GMT -5
I was fascinated with how PI was able to deal with each problem as they arose. When something came up he would figure a way to deal with it. He really was using his own brain, his ability to think something through, yet he would give one of his gods the reason for his help in thinking it through!. Might one not be able to use their own brain and have the ability to think something through and yet still conceive of a power greater than self? quote] Yes of course, one can do both, but just because one can "conceive" or bring into their mind -one definition being imagine something or some entity-doesn't make the concept of something or entity true or real.
I'm not saying it very well but perhaps like this:
I could do my house work, but could also still conceive of a greater power than myself, my Fairy Godmother, had guided me.
I could create a bonfire by friction using flint, but conceive of a power greater than myself, Prometheus, had guided me.
However, both of these entities are concepts in my mind.
I'm not sure I clarified it or just muddied the waters.
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Post by placid-void on Jun 16, 2012 20:52:51 GMT -5
Yes of course, one can do both, but just because one can "conceive" or bring into their mind -one definition being imagine something or some entity-doesn't make the concept of something or entity true or real.
I'm not saying it very well but perhaps like this:
I could do my house work, but could also still conceive of a greater power than myself, my Fairy Godmother, had guided me.
I could create a bonfire by friction using flint, but conceive of a power greater than myself, Prometheus, had guided me.
However, both of these entities are concepts in my mind.
I'm not sure I clarified it or just muddied the waters. I acknowledge the validity and appropriateness of your analysis. We all find ourselves in a state of knowledge that provides neither necessary nor sufficient data to answer the more profound questions of existence and reality. We all remain unprepared to logically and rationally tackle the proofs of either uniqueness or existence for our own being to say nothing of the existence (non-existence) of greater or lesser powers. Timothy Wilson states in his book, Strangers to Ourselves, that the human mind can take in 11 million pieces of information at any given moment. Current estimates are that the conscious mind can be aware and process perhaps forty of these pieces of information at any given moment. The unconscious mind processes the remainder. Many researchers now believe that the mental processes that organize our thinking, shape our judgments, form our character and provide us with the skills of survival are inaccessible to the conscious mind. Much remains to be learned, much remains unknown. Just as you are most comfortable with a model of existence which requires no higher power, there are some (such as Pi) for whom it is most comfortable to contemplate the majesty of the unknown with humility. I often think that the test of one’s own conviction is the tolerance with which the views of others are honored with respect. This also seems to be one of the themes of the book.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 17, 2012 0:03:47 GMT -5
Yes of course, one can do both, but just because one can "conceive" or bring into their mind -one definition being imagine something or some entity-doesn't make the concept of something or entity true or real.
I'm not saying it very well but perhaps like this:
I could do my house work, but could also still conceive of a greater power than myself, my Fairy Godmother, had guided me.
I could create a bonfire by friction using flint, but conceive of a power greater than myself, Prometheus, had guided me.
However, both of these entities are concepts in my mind.
I'm not sure I clarified it or just muddied the waters. I acknowledge the validity and appropriateness of your analysis. We all find ourselves in a state of knowledge that provides neither necessary nor sufficient data to answer the more profound questions of existence and reality. We all remain unprepared to logically and rationally tackle the proofs of either uniqueness or existence for our own being to say nothing of the existence (non-existence) of greater or lesser powers. Timothy Wilson states in his book, Strangers to Ourselves, that the human mind can take in 11 million pieces of information at any given moment. Current estimates are that the conscious mind can be aware and process perhaps forty of these pieces of information at any given moment. The unconscious mind processes the remainder. Many researchers now believe that the mental processes that organize our thinking, shape our judgments, form our character and provide us with the skills of survival are inaccessible to the conscious mind. Much remains to be learned, much remains unknown. Just as you are most comfortable with a model of existence which requires no higher power, there are some (such as Pi) for whom it is most comfortable to contemplate the majesty of the unknown with humility. I often think that the test of one’s own conviction is the tolerance with which the views of others are honored with respect. This also seems to be one of the themes of the book. I agree, I've been following Charley Rose's series on the brain with scientists. It is absolutely fascinating, all that we are quickly learning about how the brain works, yet we are only scratching the surface- we have so much more to learn. The biological brain that is the source of our mind doesn't yet tell us a lot of how the mind works! I understand Pi's, as well as others not being comfortable with my model, & certainly acknowledge their right to own their model. One reason, of course, is that I have been in their position & remember it well. How could I possibly be sure that I wouldn't feel the same as Pi and others in such horrific circumstances? It is one thing to analisize something while reading about it in a nice comfortable bed with my cat snoozing in the crook of my arm & quite another living with a tiger in a life boat!
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Post by placid-void on Jun 17, 2012 6:44:52 GMT -5
It is one thing to analisize something while reading about it in a nice comfortable bed with my cat snoozing in the crook of my arm & quite another living with a tiger in a life boat! This is a CLASSIC COMMENT! I love it! If we all could learn but this one lesson, how much smoother might life's transit be?
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Post by placid-void on Jun 17, 2012 10:11:51 GMT -5
In an earlier post I mentioned that "The Life of Pi" had given me a different perspective on fear. I thought that the description of fear in Chapter 56 was excellent. Did anyone else have a similar reaction as they read through that chapter? I would be interested in how others deal with the "wordless darkness".
The issue seems particularly relevent here on TMB because of the frequent references to the "fear of going to hell" expressed by many.
Would be interested in others experiences.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 17, 2012 22:40:04 GMT -5
In an earlier post I mentioned that "The Life of Pi" had given me a different perspective on fear. I thought that the description of fear in Chapter 56 was excellent. Did anyone else have a similar reaction as they read through that chapter? I would be interested in how others deal with the "wordless darkness". The issue seems particularly relevent here on TMB because of the frequent references to the "fear of going to hell" expressed by many. Would be interested in others experiences. I reread the chapter on fear. This author is fabulous! Even the progression he gives from being happy to absolute dread is great, it could happen over a period of time or almost instantaneous-from indoctrination into world view to the moment you turn your head & see a gun pointing at you. The actual physical results seems very true-I've never known such fear-but it seems accurate. Then the decision as what to do-trying to avoid fear doesn't solve it. I've never feared "hell". But I did feel fear of "giving up the Truth!" What, I thought, could possibly take it's place? It had been a part of my life for so long! But I did it- and what took it's place was freedom, peace! So it was worth it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 17, 2012 22:44:27 GMT -5
I keep hoping someone will throw some light on the alternate ending & why he wrote that!
I'm completely stymied!
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Post by emy on Jun 17, 2012 23:06:28 GMT -5
I'll keep on reading! Please don't give away the alternate ending yet! I won't, but you can tell I'm itching! You'll either hate it or love it. Much of the book's points of discussion can't be fully scoped until we give in and discuss the ending. Like, what's the meaning of the island? Hurry, emy!
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jun 18, 2012 12:20:43 GMT -5
Oh, dang. I accidentally abused my power as moderator. I think I just edited emy's post and destroyed it. Please forgive me! That wasn't yknot that wrote the quoted portion above, it was a portion of emy's post. And it was me who wrote what looks like emy. Guess that's why I'll never get to be the boss.
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Post by emy on Jun 18, 2012 12:56:01 GMT -5
Oh, dang. I accidentally abused my power as moderator. I think I just edited emy's post and destroyed it. Please forgive me! That wasn't yknot that wrote the quoted portion above, it was a portion of emy's post. And it was me who wrote what looks like emy. Guess that's why I'll never get to be the boss. Hmmmph! Did I have a bad word in it or something??
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 18, 2012 14:07:42 GMT -5
Oh, dang. I accidentally abused my power as moderator. I think I just edited emy's post and destroyed it. Please forgive me! That wasn't yknot that wrote the quoted portion above, it was a portion of emy's post. And it was me who wrote what looks like emy. Guess that's why I'll never get to be the boss. GO STAND IN THE BADMOD CORNER......
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 18, 2012 14:12:29 GMT -5
I'll keep on reading! Please don't give away the alternate ending yet! I won't, but you can tell I'm itching! You'll either hate it or love it. Much of the book's points of discussion can't be fully scoped until we give in and discuss the ending. Like, what's the meaning of the island? Hurry, emy!
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Post by What Hat on Jun 18, 2012 19:31:26 GMT -5
Did this passage touch a nerve with anyone? I think that we, as adults, for the sake of uniformity, take a little of the joy out of life because we are afraid of what others will think about us. I really felt compassion for Pi during this episode. The first time I went to an Indian restaurant in Canada I used my fingers. The waiter looked at me critically and said, "Fresh off the boat, are you?" I blanched. My fingers, which a second before had been taste buds savouring the food a little ahead of my mouth, became dirty under his gaze. They froze like criminals caught in the act. I didn't dare lick them. I wiped them guiltily on my napkin. He had no idea how deeply those words wounded me. They were like nails being driven into my flesh. I picked up the knife and fork. I had hardly ever used such instruments. My hands trembled. My sambar lost its taste. Martel, Yann (2002-06-04). Life of Pi (p. 7). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition. This passage actually brought to mind a number of food culture episodes I've experienced in my life. In college, I attended an Oxfam Hunger Banquet where I was assigned to the "poor" section. (The upper tier got a beautiful plated entree, the middle tier got plates & forks with some rice & beans, and the poor tier got paper bowls and a little rice.) One of my classmates showed me how to eat rice out of the paper bowl with my fingers since we didn't get any utensils. It's easier when you use the proper technique. Several years later, a work colleague invited a few people to his apartment for lunch. His mother was in town, and she had prepared a whole bunch of Indian dishes. Since he was accustomed to eating with his fingers, he didn't have a drawer full of forks and spoons--just a small stack of plastic ware from takeout bags. Since there weren't enough plastic spoons to go around, I ate with my fingers, just like he and his mother did. I didn't consider eating with my fingers to be a sensory experience the way Pi describes it, I just viewed it as an alternate method like chopstix. Some of my colleagues were afraid to even try eating Indian food with their fingers, despite their normal behavior of eating spicy chicken wings as finger food nearly every Thursday night when they went out for wings-n-beer. Table etiquette is one of those bizarre social constructs that I've never quite understood. A whole bunch of rules govern which fork you use and which direction you point the fork while cutting your meat. Though the etiquette rules rarely have a modern functional reason, we are still expected to learn them and use them in formal situations. (A little like professing women who all wear skirts to Sunday meeting in most countries.) You might enjoy this book - www.amazon.com/The-Rituals-Dinner-Evolution-Eccentricities/dp/1554682762/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1340065814&sr=8-2&keywords=rituals+of+dinnerAlthough some of it sounds like she made it up. You can get it used for 1 cent. Margaret Visser is another Canadian author.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 18, 2012 19:38:29 GMT -5
Oh, dang. I accidentally abused my power as moderator. I think I just edited emy's post and destroyed it. Please forgive me! That wasn't yknot that wrote the quoted portion above, it was a portion of emy's post. And it was me who wrote what looks like emy. Guess that's why I'll never get to be the boss. Don't feel bad. Our "modify" button is where the "quote" button appears normally. I'm forever going into peoples' posts by mistake, when I mean to quote them, but fortunately haven't damaged one yet. (I have had to remove some of amendations.)
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Post by What Hat on Jun 18, 2012 19:41:52 GMT -5
I've enjoyed catching up on everyone's posts. I'm two thirds way through but I have read the book before. Okay, without trying to spoil anything for anyone, I'll try to say this in a very general way. My brother and I both read the book a few years ago, and I will tell you (those that aren't finished yet), that you're going to end up with two explanations at the end. My brother thought the "second explanation" was the correct one. I believed the other one was correct. When we've all finished I might elaborate, but I don't believe there is a "right answer" to this question. And that probably means something in itself.
On another topic, I was struck with how graphic the animal violence was. I don't mean that as a complaint that the book was too graphic. What I mean is that I was surprised that animal violence could be graphic and horrific at all. Even when I watch the most graphic nature films, I'm ambivalent about animal eating animal. That's what they do, after all. So, I'm not sure why I found these descriptions almost repulsive.
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Post by Alan Vandermyden on Jun 18, 2012 22:45:42 GMT -5
When we've all finished I might elaborate, but I don't believe there is a "right answer" to this question. And that probably means something in itself. I just finished the book this afternoon, and I tend to look at it in this way as well. The book struck numerous "spiritual" chords with me, and I loved it!
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Post by emy on Jun 19, 2012 12:09:17 GMT -5
Y'all better go ahead. I'm going to convention this week and won't finish before I go. Maybe I will be done when I get back. (Yes, I read at convention. It winds me down and is part of my bedtime ritual. Falling asleep over my Bible is not acceptable to me. But sometimes I do! Tends to happen when one relaxes.)
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Post by Scott Ross on Jun 19, 2012 13:31:24 GMT -5
Y'all better go ahead. I'm going to convention this week and won't finish before I go. Maybe I will be done when I get back. (Yes, I read at convention. It winds me down and is part of my bedtime ritual. Falling asleep over my Bible is not acceptable to me. But sometimes I do! Tends to happen when one relaxes.) You can always read it during meeting.... Just slip a bible cover over it and everyone will think you are following along with the speaker..... LOL!!!
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Post by What Hat on Jun 19, 2012 18:32:04 GMT -5
Y'all better go ahead. I'm going to convention this week and won't finish before I go. Maybe I will be done when I get back. (Yes, I read at convention. It winds me down and is part of my bedtime ritual. Falling asleep over my Bible is not acceptable to me. But sometimes I do! Tends to happen when one relaxes.) We understand, and we promise not to tell.
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Post by emy on Jun 19, 2012 21:25:38 GMT -5
I've enjoyed catching up on everyone's posts. I'm two thirds way through but I have read the book before. Okay, without trying to spoil anything for anyone, I'll try to say this in a very general way. My brother and I both read the book a few years ago, and I will tell you (those that aren't finished yet), that you're going to end up with two explanations at the end. My brother thought the "second explanation" was the correct one. I believed the other one was correct. When we've all finished I might elaborate, but I don't believe there is a "right answer" to this question. And that probably means something in itself. On another topic, I was struck with how graphic the animal violence was. I don't mean that as a complaint that the book was too graphic. What I mean is that I was surprised that animal violence could be graphic and horrific at all. Even when I watch the most graphic nature films, I'm ambivalent about animal eating animal. That's what they do, after all. So, I'm not sure why I found these descriptions almost repulsive. Can't say I have watched many graphic nature films. (I'd rather read it than watch it.) But don't you think that the films sort of downplay the violence? You know, so people aren't cringing. Watching it in real life is about the same as reading it. But the author sure didn't pull punches, did he? And that bit about the goat in the lions' den at the zoo? Accck!
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Post by What Hat on Jun 20, 2012 17:32:15 GMT -5
I've enjoyed catching up on everyone's posts. I'm two thirds way through but I have read the book before. Okay, without trying to spoil anything for anyone, I'll try to say this in a very general way. My brother and I both read the book a few years ago, and I will tell you (those that aren't finished yet), that you're going to end up with two explanations at the end. My brother thought the "second explanation" was the correct one. I believed the other one was correct. When we've all finished I might elaborate, but I don't believe there is a "right answer" to this question. And that probably means something in itself. On another topic, I was struck with how graphic the animal violence was. I don't mean that as a complaint that the book was too graphic. What I mean is that I was surprised that animal violence could be graphic and horrific at all. Even when I watch the most graphic nature films, I'm ambivalent about animal eating animal. That's what they do, after all. So, I'm not sure why I found these descriptions almost repulsive. Can't say I have watched many graphic nature films. (I'd rather read it than watch it.) But don't you think that the films sort of downplay the violence? You know, so people aren't cringing. Watching it in real life is about the same as reading it. But the author sure didn't pull punches, did he? And that bit about the goat in the lions' den at the zoo? Accck! The BBC Planet Earth series, and the BBC Life series contain very explicit animal violence, not at all like the Wild Kingdom series of long ago. In fact, I'd be a bit careful showing BBC Life to young children.
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