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Post by sharonw on Apr 12, 2012 14:20:01 GMT -5
I am a pwgtm and I am not offended that people here call pwgtm 2x2s or friends or truthers or 2and2s or any other name. People who go to meeting do not call themSELVES/ourSELVES 2x2s or 2and2s and such. Still a true statement even though it has been turned into a statement eluding to being offended. I'm not offended. If I were offended, those who have offended me would be condemned and I seek not to do that to anyone. Again...my statement (People who go to meeting do not call themselves 2x2s) does not state: People who go to meeting are offended to be called 2x2s. Just to make sure that ladder statement is taken in context, let me repeat: My statement did NOT mention being offended to be called such. Edgar, I kind of like the fact that you can google things these days. I kind of like the fact that real life is still a better reference than the cyber world. Sometimes I've been known to google symptoms my patients exhibit, but thankfully I know how to discern the accurate from the inaccurate. I don't even doubt there are people called 2x2s. I don't doubt people could be offended to be called such. BUT...(wait for it) People who go to meeting do not call themselves 2x2s. It seems those who want to call themselves pwgtmg are edging together with other pwgtmg and there is NO division of beliefs or goals. Are you pwtgtmg want to be thought to be witches and goblins that are pwgtmg? What about being thought you are pwthtmg and your beliefs and goals are hatchet murderers? I think it is asinine to bend over backwards to NOT have a name, but seeking to be thought as someone that goes to meetings....shucks nurses go to meetings and doctors go to meetings and lawyers go to meetings, etc....what is so great about being flung into the tribe of people who go to meeting? Soon someone is going to be like me and get tired of trying to remember the pwgtmtg is spelled pwgtmtg instead of pwtggtm or other deviations and then get in trouble for giving those who go to meetings of the former 2x2's or "truth's fellowship" a new nickname that comes out of that long bunch of nothing that says that they are just some people who go to meetings....yeh! So are there probably 100,000's of millions of people all over the world and I wouldn't be surprised that Satan and his angels go to mtg. and the angels in heaven go to mtgs. sheesh!
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Post by sharonw on Apr 12, 2012 14:25:56 GMT -5
Well, here's another suggestion - how about "Professers" ? I like the "Gilligans" better, or even the "Skippers". I refuse to be called the "Mary-Anns" or the "Gingers" though. I've heard of some denominations who believe in submersion baptism as "Dunker's"
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2012 14:29:41 GMT -5
Several people here use friends and workers - f&w or F&W for short. I understand it is not as easy to type as 2x2, but still...
My main concern is that soon people will decide it's a name. ;D
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Post by emy on Apr 12, 2012 14:34:27 GMT -5
It seems those who want to call themselves pwgtmg are edging together with other pwgtmg and there is NO division of beliefs or goals. Are you pwtgtmg want to be thought to be witches and goblins that are pwgtmg? What about being thought you are pwthtmg and your beliefs and goals are hatchet murderers? I think it is asinine to bend over backwards to NOT have a name, but seeking to be thought as someone that goes to meetings....shucks nurses go to meetings and doctors go to meetings and lawyers go to meetings, etc....what is so great about being flung into the tribe of people who go to meeting? Soon someone is going to be like me and get tired of trying to remember the pwgtmtg is spelled pwgtmtg instead of pwtggtm or other deviations and then get in trouble for giving those who go to meetings of the former 2x2's or "truth's fellowship" a new nickname that comes out of that long bunch of nothing that says that they are just some people who go to meetings....yeh! So are there probably 100,000's of millions of people all over the world and I wouldn't be surprised that Satan and his angels go to mtg. and the angels in heaven go to mtgs. sheesh! Sharon, note the difference here: The letters pwgtm stands for people who go to meeting (singular - but could be plural, of course. It's just that we don't usually ask, Do you go to meetingS?) OTOH, the other examples you gave are different groups who go to meetingS. And of course Satan and his angels go to meeting (sing.). We all know that!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2012 14:38:15 GMT -5
Now that.....is a lot of people!
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Post by Greg on Apr 12, 2012 15:01:30 GMT -5
pwgtm = person who goes to meeting = peacefullycurious
No one esle, just that person.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 12, 2012 15:06:43 GMT -5
what wrote: HOLD ON! I havent checked it out for certain - I'm not where I can access my home computer. My memory isn't "perfect"!! This is what I wrote... I'm not letting him off the hook so easy. The point is that sacredotal has no verifiable source, so the onus is on him not you. He made the statement, so let him do the leg work. Here's another sentence: "Later he instructed them to say they belonged to the No Name Church, or the Church Without a Name." That doesn't even sound plausible. IOW, I don't want you to tell people that we have no name; I want you to tell them that we belong to "the Church Without a Name", because that's what Jesus called it. You could also call it the "No Name Church". Hi, I'm Edward Cooney from the "No Name Church" sometimes known as the "Church with no Name".
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 12, 2012 15:36:14 GMT -5
FWIW, Mormons and JW's both go 2x2 also...(in pairs)
Stands to reason that the more books and websites that are published and launched that refer to them as 2x2s and/or the 2x2 church--the more likely that "2x2" will become the most well known publicly recognized name for the group.
If some of you particularly dont care for that name - suggest you get the church to select its own name. I'm sure the books and websites would be willing to use an offical name selected by the F&W themselves.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 12, 2012 15:58:45 GMT -5
Too bad you didn't appreciate it enough to research your opening post properly. Perhaps you could amend it now that you know that Irvine did not use the term. (A good way to do that is to use the strike-out function rather than deleting outright, because now quite a few posts refer to yours.) I was quoting the author of the book published by Harper Collins. I doubt if he is correct- but I do not know that he isn't. I have written the author and asked him for the source. If I had wanted to mislead, I would have quoted the book directly without expressing any reservations. Sigh.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 12, 2012 16:00:56 GMT -5
Too bad you didn't appreciate it enough to research your opening post properly. Perhaps you could amend it now that you know that Irvine did not use the term. (A good way to do that is to use the strike-out function rather than deleting outright, because now quite a few posts refer to yours.) I was quoting the author of the book published by Harper Collins. I doubt if he is correct- but I do not know that he isn't. I have written the author and asked him for the source. If I had wanted to mislead, I would have quoted the book directly without expressing any reservations. Sigh. Sorry, if I implied that you intended to mislead; I see it as a perfectly honest mistake. I read that line and it struck me immediately as patently false, and since it wasn't attributed in any way, I took it as a fabrication (by the author or more likely, by his source, not by you). I sometimes assume everyone knows about fact-checking but clearly it's not the case.
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 12, 2012 16:02:33 GMT -5
I was quoting the author of the book published by Harper Collins. I doubt if he is correct- but I do not know that he isn't. I have written the author and asked him for the source. If I had wanted to mislead, I would have quoted the book directly without expressing any reservations. Sigh. Sorry, if I implied that you intended to mislead; I see it as a perfectly honest mistake. Thanks.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 12, 2012 16:10:19 GMT -5
FWIW, Mormons and JW's both go 2x2 also...(in pairs) Stands to reason that the more books and websites that are published and launched that refer to them as 2x2s and/or the 2x2 church--the more likely that "2x2" will become the most well known publicly recognized name for the group. If some of you particularly dont care for that name - suggest you get the church to select its own name. I'm sure the books and websites would be willing to use an offical name selected by the F&W themselves. Yeah, I'm sure they'll listen to me.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 12, 2012 16:20:43 GMT -5
Better to be called a 2x2 than to be called a member of the Damnation Army.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 12, 2012 17:18:11 GMT -5
Ever wonder how the workers could call themselves 2x2s if they're traveling in a pack of three?
By the way, what is a group of workers called?
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Post by Scott Ross on Apr 12, 2012 17:45:14 GMT -5
a gaggle.
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Post by fred on Apr 12, 2012 18:04:49 GMT -5
It seems those who want to call themselves pwgtmg are edging together with other pwgtmg and there is NO division of beliefs or goals. Are you pwtgtmg want to be thought to be witches and goblins that are pwgtmg? What about being thought you are pwthtmg and your beliefs and goals are hatchet murderers? I think it is asinine to bend over backwards to NOT have a name, but seeking to be thought as someone that goes to meetings....shucks nurses go to meetings and doctors go to meetings and lawyers go to meetings, etc....what is so great about being flung into the tribe of people who go to meeting? Soon someone is going to be like me and get tired of trying to remember the pwgtmtg is spelled pwgtmtg instead of pwtggtm or other deviations and then get in trouble for giving those who go to meetings of the former 2x2's or "truth's fellowship" a new nickname that comes out of that long bunch of nothing that says that they are just some people who go to meetings....yeh! So are there probably 100,000's of millions of people all over the world and I wouldn't be surprised that Satan and his angels go to mtg. and the angels in heaven go to mtgs. sheesh! Sharon, note the difference here: The letters pwgtm stands for people who go to meeting (singular - but could be plural, of course. It's just that we don't usually ask, Do you go to meetingS?) OTOH, the other examples you gave are different groups who go to meetingS. And of course Satan and his angels go to meeting (sing.). We all know that! Huh?.......just another little geographical difference. In my part of the world we would not say "do you go to meeting?" We say..."..go to meetings..." Makes sense, does it not? If you only go to meeting you are a very weak saint. ;D
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Post by What Hat on Apr 12, 2012 18:10:21 GMT -5
Ever wonder how the workers could call themselves 2x2s if they're traveling in a pack of three? By the way, what is a group of workers called? Now that you mention it, "two by two" does not make sense, unless they're going in two rows of two each. Two and two makes a little more sense, but really they should be called the "In twos", because they go "in twos". Wonder what the in twos are in to, tonight? Well, we're staying in, so the "in twos" are staying in, too.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 12, 2012 18:30:38 GMT -5
Several people here use friends and workers - f&w or F&W for short. I understand it is not as easy to type as 2x2, but still... My main concern is that soon people will decide it's a name. ;D For the record, for people who actually care, f&w seems the least offensive as best I can tell. I have been asked to use the term in place of 2x2 so I switched. Occasionally I slip up...
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 12, 2012 18:39:12 GMT -5
A parallel with the animals going into the ark in pairs, like the workers go in pairs.
In Genesis 7 it says two and two in the King James, and in the New International Version of the Bible it refers to them as pairs.
KJV: Genesis 7: 15, And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
So instead of calling it the two by twos, we could call them 'the pairs'.
I see the term 2x2s are far better than The Dippers, or some of the other names that they have been referred to over the years.
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Post by peacefullycurious on Apr 13, 2012 8:38:29 GMT -5
pwgtm = people who go to meeting pwgtm = person who goes to meeting gwgtm = goblins who go to meeting gwgtm = goblin who goes to meeting
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Post by quizzer on Apr 13, 2012 10:50:17 GMT -5
Isn't that a group of geeses?
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 13, 2012 11:23:52 GMT -5
I will wait to review the sources which are to be provided by the author of the book Sac quoted - as to whether or not WmI used or instructed the use of the term "Two by Twos".
The descriptive term "Two by Twos" (sometimes shortened to "2x2s") has become a very commonly used name for this church. Some members of the church (including Dr. Jaenen) consider the term to be condescending, derisive or derogatory. Yet, the church has not seen fit to provide the public with a proper name to use when referring to the group. Dr. Jaenen's book states on page 518:
"This nameless spiritual fellowship, sometimes condescendingly referred to as the Two-by-Twos…"
However, "Two by Twos" is NOT a newly coined name with a negative connotation. It is a very descriptive term that helps to identify the particular church under discussion. Wikipedia contains a page about this church titled "Two by Twos." Wiki requires that articles be titled with the name most often used in third-party references, and the name “Two by Twos” met their requirement.
Published books were using the term "Two by Twos" as early as the 1920's, and it also appears in journals during the 1930's. Also used in publications in 1941, 1952 and by 1983, the term was being used in newspapers, and was still being applied as recently as November 4, 2010.
The latest occurrence was printed in an advertisement placed by Tommie Gamble, Overseer of Ireland, in the “Church Notices” section of the Tyrone County Constitution (a Northern Ireland weekly newspaper) regarding Gospel Meetings held by "The Present Day 2 by 2 Apostles T. Gamble and H. McKnight."
The name “Two by Twos” is favored by many due to its ease and convenience and with no intention to be offensive. "Two by Twos" is a term that will arrest the attention of almost anyone who has ever been associated with that particular church. Of the names that have been applied to the church, "Two by Twos" works well for identification purposes, uses the fewest number of words, and can even be shortened to three keystrokes: 2x2.
The Encyclopedia of American Religions states: "The group of Christians called 'Two-by-Twos' in this text are also referred to as 'Cooneyites,' 'Go Preachers,' and 'Tramp Preachers,' but they claim no name but Christian. All of these names have been placed upon this somewhat anonymous group by outsiders." The author goes on to state: "The distinctive feature of the movement has been sending forth, two by two, unmarried teams of preachers who, 'as they go, preach' (Matt. 10:7)." (Dr. J. Gordon Melton (2003), “The Two-by-Two's”, Encyclopedia of American Religions, Gale Research, Inc., p. 611)
And IMO, the more books and websites that use the term--the more its going to become the most widely used term for the group. Of course, the workers could still select and announce an official name of their choice...and that would likely take precedence over 2x2. The time to do so is NOW however--before my book goes to print...and others that aren't yet published.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 13, 2012 13:09:52 GMT -5
How about going out four by four? Is there no evidence for this having taken place? That way you could have two workers on one's door step and two more to back them up. Actually I think JWs already do this. The 2x2 ministers...as well as the Mormons might consider doing this. I still think that the Damnation Army fits. I can still remember *shudders* when an elderly sister worker commented in a sunday morning mtg regarding the Fukushima disaster...and I can almost paraphrase her verbatum, "those people just went straight to hell". Even the elder turned his head and glanced at her.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 13, 2012 13:37:01 GMT -5
I will wait to review the sources which are to be provided by the author of the book Sac quoted - as to whether or not WmI used or instructed the use of the term "Two by Twos". The descriptive term "Two by Twos" (sometimes shortened to "2x2s") has become a very commonly used name for this church. Some members of the church (including Dr. Jaenen) consider the term to be condescending, derisive or derogatory. Yet, the church has not seen fit to provide the public with a proper name to use when referring to the group. Dr. Jaenen's book states on page 518: "This nameless spiritual fellowship, sometimes condescendingly referred to as the Two-by-Twos…"However, "Two by Twos" is NOT a newly coined name with a negative connotation. It is a very descriptive term that helps to identify the particular church under discussion. Wikipedia contains a page about this church titled "Two by Twos." Wiki requires that articles be titled with the name most often used in third-party references, and the name “Two by Twos” met their requirement. Published books were using the term "Two by Twos" as early as the 1920's, and it also appears in journals during the 1930's. Also used in publications in 1941, 1952 and by 1983, the term was being used in newspapers, and was still being applied as recently as November 4, 2010. The latest occurrence was printed in an advertisement placed by Tommie Gamble, Overseer of Ireland, in the “Church Notices” section of the Tyrone County Constitution (a Northern Ireland weekly newspaper) regarding Gospel Meetings held by "The Present Day 2 by 2 Apostles T. Gamble and H. McKnight." The name “Two by Twos” is favored by many due to its ease and convenience and with no intention to be offensive. "Two by Twos" is a term that will arrest the attention of almost anyone who has ever been associated with that particular church. Of the names that have been applied to the church, "Two by Twos" works well for identification purposes, uses the fewest number of words, and can even be shortened to three keystrokes: 2x2. The Encyclopedia of American Religions states: "The group of Christians called 'Two-by-Twos' in this text are also referred to as 'Cooneyites,' 'Go Preachers,' and 'Tramp Preachers,' but they claim no name but Christian. All of these names have been placed upon this somewhat anonymous group by outsiders." The author goes on to state: "The distinctive feature of the movement has been sending forth, two by two, unmarried teams of preachers who, 'as they go, preach' (Matt. 10:7)." (Dr. J. Gordon Melton (2003), “The Two-by-Two's”, Encyclopedia of American Religions, Gale Research, Inc., p. 611) And IMO, the more books and websites that use the term--the more its going to become the most widely used term for the group. Of course, the workers could still select and announce an official name of their choice...and that would likely take precedence over 2x2. The time to do so is NOW however--before my book goes to print...and others that aren't yet published. I'm not overly worried about the term 2x2. Have you heard of the concept of term reclamation? Some years ago many of the gay community started to refer to themselves as "happys" in order to "reclaim" the term. The idea was that if they started to use the term themselves it would loose its sting as a pejorative term. It's a bit of a dicey proposition, but it can work. Some feminists, some of whom I know because they're family, participated in a "Sllut Walk" in Toronto recently, again, an attempt to neutralize the term "sllut". I'm not sure that one is going to work but I wish them luck. The term "Lutheran" was originally a derisory, condescending term as well, invented by outsiders to marginalize the followers of Martin Luther. He would have blanched at the idea of a church named after himself, but it stuck, and no one thinks of it as insulting today. So if more insiders just begin to go along with 2x2, I see a number of advantages. 1) It will loose its sting and just become a name. 2) It's ideal from the POV of the principle of not having a name. It provides a handle when you need a handle, and the church workers can just say, well, that's not what we call it, but yeah, that is who we are, if you must know. However, I will continue to use the name f&w and hope that sticks instead. I'm not in a sweat if 2x2 becomes the standard, unlike that other word for which my umbrage and indignation has attracted ongoing notice in some camps.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Apr 13, 2012 17:46:11 GMT -5
I can still remember *shudders* when an elderly sister worker commented in a sunday morning mtg regarding the Fukushima disaster...and I can almost paraphrase her verbatum, "those people just went straight to hell". Even the elder turned his head and glanced at her. A little shock value can be effective.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2012 18:45:29 GMT -5
I can still remember *shudders* when an elderly sister worker commented in a sunday morning mtg regarding the Fukushima disaster...and I can almost paraphrase her verbatum, "those people just went straight to hell". Even the elder turned his head and glanced at her. A little shock value can be effective. Interesting concept: scare 'em to heaven!
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 13, 2012 19:18:46 GMT -5
A little shock value can be effective. Interesting concept: scare 'em to heaven! Jason Seems that sister worker had a revelation according to the 2X2 doctrine? ken
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 13, 2012 20:28:16 GMT -5
I think emy and DD suggested using the name f&w, which I have used a lot on this board. We all understand what that means and that is fine. BUT I know an older gentleman who sincerely, without guile, used that term verbally speaking with " outsiders", who would look kinda surprised when they thought he was using the "f" word to describe a group of people. f -n w church. He was actually trying to speak respectfully or at least "neutral", but the "name" did not "translate" that way, so I suggest 2x2 would be more appropriate when spoken verbally? Alvin
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