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Post by rational on Feb 21, 2012 11:53:27 GMT -5
Doesn't it seem odd that you never see or hear about an amputee being healed by faith. Or someone suffering with ALS. Burn victims are never the targets of faith healers either. To look at the other side of faith healing: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0876/is_n56/ai_9164598/If you do watch YouTube: (I am not a YouTube watcher - I just saw the link)
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Post by StAnne on Feb 21, 2012 13:38:44 GMT -5
I have heard that seminaries are full. This could very well be true. Looking into a little history: In 1966, there were approximately 600 seminaries and religious houses of formation in the U.S. that educated future priests. By 1996 a total of 408 of these seminaries/houses of formation had closed. It appears that there are fewer than 75 seminaries operating in the US. The fullness of seminaries might just be a reflection of the fact that every year there are fewer and fewer. Apples to apples. Okay? Again ... In all, there were 3,608 post-baccalaureate U.S. seminarians last year, a net increase of 125 seminarians, or 4 percent, over the previous year and the highest number since the early 1990s. More than three-quarters of them were studying for the diocesan priesthood, while 24 percent intend to be ordained for religious orders.
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Post by kencoolidge on Feb 26, 2012 14:26:50 GMT -5
Rational God is real and authentic. Folks trying to buy the Holy Spirits power from Paul and then imitating but in the end shown for what they were. JMT ken
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 5, 2012 16:22:14 GMT -5
According to the workers and overseers I have spoken with Matthew 10:8 is not for today. Just the other parts of Matthew 10: 5-15. Amazingly selective!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2012 16:47:17 GMT -5
According to the workers and overseers I have spoken with Matthew 10:8 is not for today. Just the other parts of Matthew 10: 5-15. Amazingly selective! Irvine GreyThe actual quote from Matthew 10:8. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.""Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can heal the sick of heart and take away the reproach of the Mosaic Law which prohibits those with blemishes from entering the tabernacle. I know of no church which does this, either literally or in spirit."... raise the dead, cast out devils..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can raise the dead. Recall Jesus saying "l et the dead bury their dead"?Worldly churches do no raise the dead, nor have I seen them breath life into any who feel dead to the world. "... cast out devils..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can cast out the devils in one's life. False doctrine permits devils, creates devils and serves devils.freely ye have received, freely give - We take this literally, worldly churches take it figuratively.Irvinegrey, what cult do YOU belong to? You mentioned the Workers being "selective" so can I ask you the questions you selectively ignored before?You are "researching" the "early history" of my church for a thesis or some such human accolade. 1 - Are you seeking to explain it away by claiming Irvine was the true founder? 2 - Have you read the early history of the Apostolic church? 3 - Are you aware of the huge body of material which "proves" Paul was the true founder? 4 - If not, why not? 5 - Would you recommend that others here read those books? 6 - On my profile below are the web sites which cover our doctrine and beliefs, would you incorporate these into your thesis as they represent our point of view? 7 - Do we actually HAVE a point of view in your thesis? 8 - Who were the Workers and Overseers you spoke to about this? 9 - What will this thesis give you, spiritually? 10 - What exactly will it "prove."? ps I find that the greater the "research" the more selective a person's material becomes. I find that the more people cry bias and selectivity, the more biased and selective they become. I find that the more people find fault in others, the less they attend to their own faults.
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Mar 5, 2012 18:57:31 GMT -5
For the record, these miracles are the expectations of the Messianic Age, as prophesied by Isaiah. Jesus didn't perform such healings spiritually; he did so literally. John the Baptist, wondering if the Messiah had arrived to ring in the age, inquired about Jesus:
Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.
I'm guessing Bert is saying God's age and the Messiah's rule has come and gone? We can't do those things anymore?
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Post by rational on Mar 5, 2012 18:57:43 GMT -5
This could very well be true. Looking into a little history: In 1966, there were approximately 600 seminaries and religious houses of formation in the U.S. that educated future priests. By 1996 a total of 408 of these seminaries/houses of formation had closed. It appears that there are fewer than 75 seminaries operating in the US. The fullness of seminaries might just be a reflection of the fact that every year there are fewer and fewer. 575 of 600 closed since 1966. That's over 12 a year. Apples to apples. Okay? Again ... In all, there were 3,608 post-baccalaureate U.S. seminarians last year, a net increase of 125 seminarians, or 4 percent, over the previous year and the highest number since the early 1990s. More than three-quarters of them were studying for the diocesan priesthood, while 24 percent intend to be ordained for religious orders. Nope. I was commenting on: I have heard that seminaries are full. And I stated that one very possible reason was that a large number of seminaries have been closing. You are saying there is a 4% increase in a year and I noted that there has been an 85+% decrease in the number of seminaries.
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timber
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Post by timber on Mar 5, 2012 20:19:39 GMT -5
I believe that God can heal, but it seems so unpredictable as to whom or when He heals. It doesn't make any sense to me but it does to Him. I guess I'll have to be satisfied with that.
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timber
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Post by timber on Mar 5, 2012 20:21:08 GMT -5
Rational - just out of curiosity - has the number of proclaimed atheists increased over the last 30 or so years - do you have any data on that?
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Post by irvinegrey on Mar 6, 2012 2:21:07 GMT -5
According to the workers and overseers I have spoken with Matthew 10:8 is not for today. Just the other parts of Matthew 10: 5-15. Amazingly selective! Irvine GreyThe actual quote from Matthew 10:8. "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.""Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can heal the sick of heart and take away the reproach of the Mosaic Law which prohibits those with blemishes from entering the tabernacle. I know of no church which does this, either literally or in spirit."... raise the dead, cast out devils..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can raise the dead. Recall Jesus saying "l et the dead bury their dead"?Worldly churches do no raise the dead, nor have I seen them breath life into any who feel dead to the world. "... cast out devils..." - We take this spiritually, the Gospel can cast out the devils in one's life. False doctrine permits devils, creates devils and serves devils.freely ye have received, freely give - We take this literally, worldly churches take it figuratively.Irvinegrey, what cult do YOU belong to? You mentioned the Workers being "selective" so can I ask you the questions you selectively ignored before?You are "researching" the "early history" of my church for a thesis or some such human accolade. 1 - Are you seeking to explain it away by claiming Irvine was the true founder? 2 - Have you read the early history of the Apostolic church? 3 - Are you aware of the huge body of material which "proves" Paul was the true founder? 4 - If not, why not? 5 - Would you recommend that others here read those books? 6 - On my profile below are the web sites which cover our doctrine and beliefs, would you incorporate these into your thesis as they represent our point of view? 7 - Do we actually HAVE a point of view in your thesis? 8 - Who were the Workers and Overseers you spoke to about this? 9 - What will this thesis give you, spiritually? 10 - What exactly will it "prove."? ps I find that the greater the "research" the more selective a person's material becomes. I find that the more people cry bias and selectivity, the more biased and selective they become. I find that the more people find fault in others, the less they attend to their own faults. Bert I have not ignored your questions and will eventually get around to answering them but they are not on my A list at this time. Of course for some of the answers you will just have to wait for the finished thesis.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 6, 2012 2:27:03 GMT -5
So, Bert confirms the workers and he are selective in what verses they believe. Most churches pray for the sick and believe God heals and as the workers say, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.
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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2012 3:23:24 GMT -5
Rational - just out of curiosity - has the number of proclaimed atheists increased over the last 30 or so years - do you have any data on that? I don't have a lot of data and haven't been to the group meetings since they discontinues the "Free toaster for 10 Converts" program! I do think there is an increase. And I can offer this: 2007, Pew Research Values Study: Percentage of people identifying themselves as atheist, agnostic or "no religion" by year of birth: Date of birth <1946 : 5% 1946-1964: 11% 1965-1976: 14% 1977+: 19% Looks like the percentage is higher for the younger population. Also - it was noted that this survey was taken around christmas time. Some think that would distort the findings. The "No religion" category also creates problems.
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Post by rational on Mar 6, 2012 3:25:49 GMT -5
Rational God is real and authentic. Folks trying to buy the Holy Spirits power from Paul and then imitating but in the end shown for what they were. JMT ken So is faith healing. Ask Benny Hinn. Or you could ask John of God. Just don't ask for actual examples of it actually working. Or that there is a god.
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Post by kencoolidge on Mar 6, 2012 14:31:05 GMT -5
Rational God is real and authentic. Folks trying to buy the Holy Spirits power from Paul and then imitating but in the end shown for what they were. JMT ken So is faith healing. Ask Benny Hinn. Or you could ask John of God. Just don't ask for actual examples of it actually working. Or that there is a god. Rational Perhaps you could research Bertrand Russel theory on creation and report back whether you agree disagree or you are un decided. In the mean time I'll continue believing what I believe and cast aside atheist comments as irreleveant to the Kindgdom of God. I pray for all in and out of favor with God. ken
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Post by kencoolidge on May 7, 2012 19:42:19 GMT -5
Rational God is real and authentic. Folks trying to buy the Holy Spirits power from Paul and then imitating but in the end shown for what they were. JMT ken So is faith healing. Ask Benny Hinn. Or you could ask John of God. Just don't ask for actual examples of it actually working. Or that there is a god. Rat The original Benny Hinn I have heard was awesome. Seems maybe he fell off the sled? ?? ken
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Post by sharonw on May 7, 2012 19:58:51 GMT -5
Why do we look at the religious sector of life for healing any more? Hasn't God performed great wonders in adapting man's mind and gave him interests in what the body does when well or sick, then research after research is bringing mankind up to the level of healing that once religious authorities wanted and some did/do.
I believe that the spiritual and the healing of the physical are separated in this so separated world where only one thing becomes a profession and something else becomes another profession, etc. So there are healers and then there are those who work for the spiritual edification and education of those who are spiritually il.
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Post by kencoolidge on May 8, 2012 8:51:30 GMT -5
Sharon Your words sorta echo workers word and discount healing Here is a little you might find interesting The Healing Revival 1947-1958 - An Overview After the lean spiritual years of World War II, two major national movements revitalized the American church. One was the evangelical movement spearheaded by Billy Graham and other was the healing revival represented by William Branham and Oral Roberts and a host of other lesser-known ministries like A. A. Allen and Jack Coe.
It declared itself as "a signs-gifts-healing, salvation-deliverance, Holy Ghost miracle revival." Between 1947 and 1958 scores of healing evangelists traversed America and went into the entire world praying for the sick. Their unabashed stories are best read in the pages of Gordon Lindsay's Voice of Healing magazine, 100 copies of which are available on a single CD Rom.
The extraordinary effects of the movement The revival was an extraordinary, heaven-sent move of God which revitalized American Pentecostalism, revived the preaching of the full Gospel, popularized the doctrine of divine healing and spawned the Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International, with Demos Shakarian as its founder. It was the spiritual father of the modern charismatic movement which spans the globe and has transformed international Christianity and affected almost every known denomination.
Thousands were healed, tens of thousands were converted, droves of missionaries were sent to the unevangelised masses, churches were planted and nations were seeded with the Gospel. Within twenty years many nations that were affected experienced an exponential church growth which still shows no sign of waning, sixty years on.
William Branham William Branham is the person universally acknowledged as the revival's "father." The sudden appearance of his miraculous healing campaigns in 1946, including an astonishing use of authentic spiritual gifts (notably discernment of spirits, the word of knowledge and healing) ignited the dry tinder of American Pentecostalism and fanned its flames into a mighty fire.
As reports of incredible healings increased, Branham's fame and ministry grew. He was soon joined by Jack Moore, Gordon Lindsay, and W. J. Em Baxter, who provided a capable management team.
William Branham and Oral Roberts standing togetherLindsay and Moore initiated the Voice of Healing magazine to publicize Branham's ministry, although it soon became the voice of dozens of healing evangelists.
Branham was the primary source of inspiration for other healing ministries who created their own independent ministries. They all testified to the widespread influence of William Branham.
Oral Roberts David Harrell describes Roberts as"one of the most influential religious leaders in the world in the twentieth century." Harrell contends that Roberts has influenced the course of modern Christianity as profoundly as any American religious leader.
From his beginnings in 1947 he conducted over 300 major healing crusades and personally prayed for over one million people, over the next thirty years. He traveled across America preaching and praying in the largest tent ever used to promote the gospel. Another innovation was his national weekly television program which took his healing crusades to millions who had never been exposed to the healing message. His radio program, heard on over 500 stations, also served to propagate the message of healing and deliverance. By 1980 he was receiving more than five million letters annually from supporters requesting the prayer of faith.
Supporting artists By the early 1950’s scores of healing evangelists filled tents and auditoriums around the country, attracting tens of thousands of people and reporting thousands of healings and other miracles. In 1950, over 1,000 healing evangelists gathered at a Voice of Healing convention. Second to Branham and Roberts the most well-known were Jack Coe and A. A. Allen. These two became so successful that they began their own magazines sent to multiplied thousands of supporters and took their unsophisticated but powerful message to multitudes across the States.
A.A.Allen superimposed on a typical tent meeting picture Asa Alonzo Allen A. A. Allen was by far the most important revivalist to emerge in the early days and he was one of the few that had a substantial following right up to his death in 1970. He was bold and flamboyant with skillful rhetoric and dynamic showmanship. His reporting of miracles, signs and wonders may have bordered on the sensational but no one could deny his pulpit presence, his popular appeal and the amazing power that attended his ministry. Jack Coe Coe was an established evangelist when the revival broke in 1947. He was a large, self-assured man who had a dynamic personality and stage presence. He rented his first tent in 1947 and soon became one of the foremost healing revivalists. In 1951 he purchased what he described as the largest Gospel tent in the world, seating 22,000 people. His was the only ministry that seriously challenged Oral Roberts as the popular leader of the revival.
Coe had an ability to present the Gospel with unusual power. When praying for the sick, he was full of faith and boldness, often looking for the hardest cases.
His magazine, the Herald of Healing, began to be published in 1950 and within one year its circulation had risen to 35,000 and by 1956 it had reached 250,000.
Other names should be mentioned as they formed part of the great mosaic of ministries that made the Healing Revival such an effective movement. Gordon Lindsay was the founding editor of the Voice of Healing, with his friend Jack Moore and Jack’s daughter, Anna Jean Moore. The Voice of Healing became the catalyst and voice of the movement, sending its message far and wide.
William Freeman enjoyed a meteoric if comparatively short-lived rise to fame in the early period as a clear Gospel preacher and an anointed healer. O.L. Jaggers was another talented and successful leader of the revival, but one who worked from a firm local church base rather than remaining purely iterant. Velmer Gardner, Franklin Hall, David Nunn and W. V. Grant all enjoyed considerable success in the healing revival.
The revival spreads its wings A few of the healing evangelists specialized in foreign evangelism, but many of the independent ministers of the 1950s conducted crusades outside the United States, attracting hundreds of thousands to healing revivals in Latin America, Africa, and Asia. The Voice of Healing magazine published reports of scores of extraordinary foreign revivals led by evangelists such as Tommy Hicks and Tommy L. Osborn. Later Lester Sumrall and Morris Cerullo would take up their baton with a vision for world evangelization.
It is generally accepted that the revival peaked by 1957 but its impact and influence extended far into the next few decades as its main message and ministry became absorbed by the ever-increasing Pentecostal and charismatic churches across the world.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 8, 2012 13:38:21 GMT -5
I believe in healing to a degree. I can't associate it with a spiritual benefit. It says of Jesus"He could do no great miracle there,except heal a few sick folks". Even if we are healed ,does it prevent death? Dying is our way of getting to Heaven. As I see it.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2012 19:33:22 GMT -5
Doesn't it seem odd that you never see or hear about an amputee being healed by faith. Or someone suffering with ALS. Burn victims are never the targets of faith healers either. To look at the other side of faith healing:
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0876/is_n56/ai_9164598/If you do watch YouTube: (I am not a YouTube watcher - I just saw the link) It would be good if this video were watched by everyone who posts here. I've known about James Randi for years.
He exposes religious charlatons, but the problem is since they are often the very ridicuous ones, people can see the danger & lack of good sense in those.
However, the more subtle & less ridiculous still get away with their antics and suspposed "miracles."
If people would just stop & use some crititcal thinking they wouldn't be so taken in.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 8, 2012 19:45:08 GMT -5
Rational - just out of curiosity - has the number of proclaimed atheists increased over the last 30 or so years - do you have any data on that? I would like to make a comment.
I don't know if there has been an increase in the number of atheists, but I believe a lot more realized they were ahteists all along & "came out of the closet!"
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Post by kencoolidge on May 8, 2012 21:01:32 GMT -5
Sounds like a gathering of Pharisees. What there is doubt that Jesus did physical healings? Yes or no? Jesus said his followers would do greater yes or no? Those that did see and could not deny the healing said he did it through the devil. Seem that spirit is still alive here from comments and discredits. You know what I am saying. Denial in the face of the evidence. Perhaps you lack faith ken
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Post by kencoolidge on May 8, 2012 21:03:02 GMT -5
According to the workers and overseers I have spoken with Matthew 10:8 is not for today. Just the other parts of Matthew 10: 5-15. Amazingly selective! IG So whats new? ken
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