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Post by Error correction on Jul 10, 2006 18:19:10 GMT -5
Why would something that was once a sin or an abomination to God suddenly not be? God made a mistake. Originally the whole ham seafood thing seemed wrong but after taking a second look ham and cheese didn't seem so bad. After that a review of the textile futures made the whole mixed fabric clause seem pretty dumb as well. One thing led to another and God began to laugh. People were taking every word at face value and trying to follow them and were driving themselves crazy. Great fun!
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Post by horsewoman on Jul 10, 2006 19:11:04 GMT -5
Oh yes.... excessive legalism is such a blast, isn't it?
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Post by Jessi on Jul 10, 2006 20:33:33 GMT -5
Why would something that was once a sin or an abomination to God suddenly not be? God made a mistake. Originally the whole ham seafood thing seemed wrong but after taking a second look ham and cheese didn't seem so bad. After that a review of the textile futures made the whole mixed fabric clause seem pretty dumb as well. One thing led to another and God began to laugh. People were taking every word at face value and trying to follow them and were driving themselves crazy. Great fun! I believe these distinctions . . . (ex, Lev 19:19+) Breeding cattle with different other kinds of cattle Sowing a field with mixed seed mingling linen with wool all point to the HOLINESS and separateness of God. They are all pictures designed to remind the Jewish people of who Holy God is. Separation. Distinction. boundaries. Lines. Measures. Pictures of the Holiness of God. He is distinct and separate and Holy and so will His people be (Lev 20:26). Because He is Holy, He cannot be approached frivolously (Lev 10:1 +) and if He says something, He does truly mean it. He said no one was to EVER touch the ark. That’s what the poles were for. Uzzah, raised all his life knowing this, reached out to steady the ark, a loving act, perhaps. God killed him right there (II Sam 6:2-9). Some sin He punishes right away. Some, in time. The knowledge sin comes through the law (Rom 3:20). It’s a must have. It proves man’s absolute inability to keep it perfectly. Hence, sacrifice upon bloody sacrifice . . . that could STILL by no means deliver man from sin (Heb 10:4). Heb 10:1 says that "since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year make perfect those who draw near."God has not changed from then to now. He is unchangeable. So, what has changed? Christ was the merciful provision. The perfect Lamb who fulfilled the law perfectly for us all. Now, all we have to do is recognize our sin, repent and be saved by the Christ of God. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Nothing the same but change
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Post by Nothing the same but change on Jul 10, 2006 21:34:11 GMT -5
God made a mistake. Originally the whole ham seafood thing seemed wrong but after taking a second look ham and cheese didn't seem so bad. After that a review of the textile futures made the whole mixed fabric clause seem pretty dumb as well. One thing led to another and God began to laugh. People were taking every word at face value and trying to follow them and were driving themselves crazy. Great fun! You could give them that meaning. But all it says is what is written. It seems that you pull disparate bits and pieces and reassemble them to support your claims. Well, that is subject to personal understanding. Ezekiel 39:10 They shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robben them, saith the Lord God. Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. He killed 50,000 just because the people looked at the ark. What a loving guy! So it would be impossible to determine if it was God punishing or just random bad luck. Well, someone related to God said the old law was being replaced. That seems to be a change. This makes no sense. Are you saying the law was eliminated because Jesus 'fulfilled" it? What does it mean to fulfill the law? If the law is 80 km/hr and I do that do I fulfill the law so everyone else can speed? Work on the Sabbath or no work? Is the OT law out the window?
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Post by Jessi on Jul 10, 2006 22:00:08 GMT -5
That's pretty much standard reformed thinking on the subject--many other people of the reformed faith think exactly the same way . . . even people NOT of the reformed faith. It's not a private interpretation. I think it's fairly standard.
God IS love. That's why we have to figure out why He did do the things he did. It's hard to understand why God, if He is love, would kill someone (but remember, He is also Holy). We must study His attributes to discover all of what He has said through His Word.
I never said the law was eliminated.
Jesus said the greatest commandment was love. This one commandment is the one upon which hangs all the law and the prophets (Matt 22:36).
Once one understands SOME of the attributes of God (who could know all of them but God?), it's easier to understand His actions and precepts. Some things are fairly difficult to understand, but children can understand the gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ.
When it starts to make sense is when God has opens the heart to receive the Word. The Father draws people to His Son, and like Lydia in Acts 16:14, HE will open the heart to learn. But what must come first is a recognition of sin and only God can grant repentance. Christ's, Jessi
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Post by standards on Jul 10, 2006 23:09:32 GMT -5
That's pretty much standard reformed thinking on the subject--many other people of the reformed faith think exactly the same way . . . even people NOT of the reformed faith. It's not a private interpretation. I think it's fairly standard. For a limited number of people. There are as many, if not more, that give it other meanings. They all can't be right. Love? You have to wonder about someone who expresses love and care by maiming and killing. That will take a lot of hard work. So pork is right off the menu? Greatest does not mean only. We know some. God is all knowing and all powerful but can't seem to get by without causing pain and struggles in humans so they will worship Him. There seem to be some character flaws.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 11, 2006 16:48:10 GMT -5
If this is the same poster . . .
"Can't all be right" - No, the Bible means what it means apart from any of us. We must figure out what it means by rightly dividing the Word of God.
Yep, figuring out who God is and why He does what He does is hard. Study IS a "lot of hard work." But that's one thing no one can do for you. God wants you to do it yourself.
Pork . . . what are you talking about again?
Greatest . . . means the most important. Christ's LOVE (The LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL, STRENGTH) --which pretty much covers EVERYTHING--will give us the ability to follow the 10 commandments and all the instructions He left us with. He is referring to making worship of God a lifestyle, not just love as in being nice to people, but to HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD IS ONE . . . . Mark 12:29.
What other rules do you think we should adhere to? What do you think the other commandments are? For instance, how do you read Matt 19:16-19? Mark 7:6 +?
Which commandments are John 14:15 referring to?
John 15:9-10.
Does not "all the law and the prophets" fall under or ("HANG UPON) "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, MIND, SOUL & STRENGTH?"
Do you have any suggestions as to what some of this might mean? You seem to have many criticisms but no answer yourself. Do you believe that someone can love you and punish you at the same time? I'd like to hear what YOU think of the scripture listed.
I especially would like to hear what YOU think all the mingling wool and linen, , etc. What DOES it mean? Christ's, Jessi
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Post by slatecom on Jul 15, 2006 9:52:28 GMT -5
From slate.com the hottest law of all, the No. 1, all-time favorite, top-of-the-pops Bible verse for social conservatives: Leviticus 18:22.
"Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abhorrence."
A lot of ink, and probably some blood, has been spilled about the meaning of this verse. I can't count the number of times I've heard religious conservatives cite it in their condemnation of homosexuality. On the flip side, I once listened to my rabbi hold forth about the word "abhorrence" (sometimes translated as "abomination")—he argued that it actually had a much milder meaning than, well, "abhorrence." Despite his impassioned argument, I don't think gay-rights supporters are going to get very far in trying to minimize or deny the Bible's opposition to homosexuality. There is no Brokeback Mount Sinai. This verse, plus a similar verse in Chapter 20 mandating death for gay sex between men, plus the destruction of Sodom—the Bible is crystal clear about male homosexuality.
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Post by mrleo on Jul 15, 2006 10:53:19 GMT -5
I just watched Jacques Pepin kill a lobster on his cooking show, and I have to say I feel rather violated...I'm gonna have to side with God on that particular abomination.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 15, 2006 15:46:39 GMT -5
The interesting thing about Lev 18:22 is that the whole chapter lists this sin among a bunch more, calling them ALL an abomination (it seems to me that anything less than perfect is not holy, and therefore, an abomination), making that person unable to approach Holy God.
In 18:30 (ESV), God reiterates: So keep my charge never to practice any of these customs that were practiced before you, and never make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.
They were also not to burn their children in sacrifice to Molech. Nor lie with their neighbor's wife. In Ch 20:15, not to lie with animals, nor their sister, nor uncle's wife, nor brother's wife, etc.
These things were still considered wrong in the NT and also are wrong in society today. What makes us choose some things and say they are all right in God's eyes--even though He is the LORD God, Holy God and we read it in His word?
These are all pictures of how unholy men are without a Savior. Sins that men have committed for all time. How many times did the Children of Israel go to serve other gods?
But the wonderful compassion and grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is that He made us righteous by imputation of his life and death(Rom 4:6, Ps 32:2). All we have to do is repent of our sins (stop doing them because we know it's wrong and against what God has said).
If one is the Lord's, He will not let one continue in sin. God will cause an event or events in a person's life that will make him/her face the sin and be convicted and repent. I know this part only too well.
I take comfort only in that there will be no tears in heaven. All my tears are shed here. Nor suffering. Nor punishment. Because there will be no sin in heaven.
Christ's Jessi
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whoever is writing Jessi back
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Post by whoever is writing Jessi back on Jul 15, 2006 20:23:50 GMT -5
Whoever is retaliating to Jessi sounds incredibly ignorant and purposefully rebellious against God.
Interpret how you will, retaliator.
God won't let you get away with rebelling against Him for long. He'll either set you straight now, if you are open to Him, or He will allow you to suffer the consequences that you are choosing in your disobedience. Your incredible disrespect for His instructions and commandments will not be unknown by Him.
God is a FATHER. No matter how SMART you think you are or how OLD you are, no matter how you justify interpretation to fit your subjective thoughts, if you are disobedient - as a FATHER, God will set you straight, be it in this life or in the life after.
I'd hate to disobey His word intentionally and bare the consequence in the after life.
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Post by guest on Jul 16, 2006 2:53:50 GMT -5
God won't let you get away with rebelling against Him for long. He'll either set you straight now, if you are open to Him, or He will allow you to suffer the consequences that you are choosing in your disobedience. Your incredible disrespect for His instructions and commandments will not be unknown by Him. God is a FATHER. No matter how SMART you think you are or how OLD you are, no matter how you justify interpretation to fit your subjective thoughts, if you are disobedient - as a FATHER, God will set you straight, be it in this life or in the life after. I'd hate to disobey His word intentionally and bare the consequence in the after life. You've got to wonder, is this post a spoof of a typical bible thumper? It's so classic, you could almost believe it is genuine. Or it could just be an extreme example written out by some sarcastic fellow to show just how unfair, unfortunate, and dogmatically blind some Christians are. It is sad, but if it wouldn't be how some Christians percieve and preach the advice/admonition of the bible (God), they could allow themselves the liberty to see that homosexual union, coupling, and love is as deep, real, good and blessed as any similar heterosexual union. If they would (or could) allow themselves to see and understand, then they would begin to reinterpret the bible to accept homosexuality, on the grounds of love, as many Christians now do.
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Post by Bert on Jul 16, 2006 4:29:49 GMT -5
bible thumping huh? How's that for contempt.
re - accept homosexuality on the grounds of love. Wrong argument, for to disobey a commandment on the grounds of what a person happens to love is to ignore the fact that many vices in the scripture involved love of some kind.
It makes no difference how deep, real, good and blessed any behavior may or may not be, if God has mandated that it is not permissable then we defer to that much deeper and wiser deep, real, good and blessed.
The "Christians" who "now do" accept what was for thousands of years not acceptable are not Christians, but new age liberals who have given up picking and chosing what portions of scripture to believe or disbelieve, and have simply written their own texts, and clothed themselves with the mantle of Christian respectability.
Bert
disobedience to God
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Post by Jessi on Jul 16, 2006 8:53:41 GMT -5
That's the problem with today's Christian. He has become accepting of many practices the Bible simply and clearly forbids. The devil has blurred the lines. The sensuality of today's Christian is evident in this "accept homosexuality on the grounds of love" idea. There is such a thing as telling the truth in love. And so . . . in love, I must object.
With today's Christian, it's all about how a person FEELS about something, all based on EXPERIENCE and a person's FEELINGS and sense of justice and fairness from a human POV, NOT BASED ON WHAT GOD SAYS.
R.C. Sproul writes about this Christian in his book, "Knowing Scripture."
The sensuous Christian is one who lives by his feelings rather than through his understanding of the Word of God. The sensuous Christian cannot be moved to service, prayer or study unless he "feels like it." His Christian life is only as effective as the intensity of present feelings . . . His "inner feelings" become the ultimate test for truth . . . . [Ch I, pg 27]
Sproul goes on to say in this chapter that the "dreadful curse" on modern Christianity is that EXPERIENCE and PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS have become more imporant than the Bible.
He writes, "If the Scripture calls us to action that may jeopardize a personal relationship, then the Scripture must be compromised. The highest law of the sensuous Christian is that bad feelings must be avoided at all cost." [Ch1, pg 28]
Anyone claiming to have the Holy Spirit will not continue in sin. The conviction of the grieved Spirit within because of disobedience will eventually (God's timing is always right) drive a true Christian on his face before Holy God.
Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2006 10:47:59 GMT -5
Exactly. One of those practices is men lying with men. Another of those practices is eating shellfish. Another of those is gaining interest on your money. Another of those is men being clean-shaven. Another is that in all the churches women should keep silent. The Bible clearly states all these things.
The Bible also clearly states that we can buy and sell other people (but only from neighboring nations), but if we steal them we should be put to death.
The Bible also clearly states that we are not to touch the carcass of an unclean animal...does that mean we really shouldn't play football?
The Bible also clearly states that we are not to touch a woman who is menstruating, but how are we to know? It seems rude to ask.
These may seem like glib questions, but the issue here is picking and choosing, and it is apparently that very thing that separates Real Christians from Sensuous Christians. I'd like to hear from some of the Sensuous Christians...how do you explain this picking and choosing that you do?
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Post by Rob O on Jul 16, 2006 10:58:13 GMT -5
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Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2006 10:59:34 GMT -5
Eating popcorn on Sunday seems awfully sensuous to me Rob...explain yourself.
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Post by hawk on Jul 16, 2006 11:00:06 GMT -5
And yet, if people don't see the way things 'you' do (meaning anyone in general), then they are lost. That is typical of so many christians. Speaking of which, I disagree with Jessi's phrase at the bottom.
'To join a church or be a member of a church, one must be a sinner.'
Why must one be a member of a church? What does that have to do with the price of beans in China? Jesus never said follow me by joining a church. In fact, he never said anything about joining churches. He taught in Jewish synagogues at times. So should we all join Jewish synagogues? Other times he taught in the street. Should we create a church in the middle of the street? You could call it The Middle of the Road Church. He also taught in fields. I meet in The Church in the Pasture. (But there is no reason to capitalize any of it.) Sometimes the birds are there. Sometimes cattle, lizards, snakes, mice, rats, cats, or dogs. But God is always there. I don't have to go anywhere. I don't need a special building with stained glass and pretty carpet and the latest video and sound equipment. I don't need a guy in a bathrobe (preaching). I don't need a bathtub or sprinkler system for baptizing. No one has to show up and put money in a bucket. (There's another one that gripes me, but I'll spare you for now . . God's money??? Give me a break.)
Did you ever wonder who started the idea of church buildings after Christ? I think it was the Catlikkers. They started plenty. Are you a catlikker or a christian? Why does one have to join a church to get to heaven? Bunk.
'sme
p.s. I'm writing this while many of you are 'in' church. hahahaha Have to go eat at the Senior Center now. Toodles.
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Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2006 11:37:21 GMT -5
Hawk, I commend you for the courage it took to step forward as a Sensuous Christian. Clearly, Satan has you right where he wants you. Who's next?
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Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2006 12:10:45 GMT -5
C'mon, ladies...I know there are some of you out there who haven't gone to church this morning. And if you did, I hope you can honestly tell me that you didn't make a peep. That means no testifying, no singing, no praying aloud, and not even the quietest murmur of an "Amen, Brother" (no "Amen, Sister" should be self-evident, since sisters shouldn't be saying anything in the first place). You may be fooling the rest of us, but I'm pretty sure you know Who is not being fooled...
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Post by guest on Jul 16, 2006 13:54:53 GMT -5
You've got to wonder, is this post a spoof of a typical bible thumper? It's so classic, you could almost believe it is genuine. Or it could just be an extreme example written out by some sarcastic fellow to show just how unfair, unfortunate, and dogmatically blind some Christians are. It is sad, but if it wouldn't be how some Christians percieve and preach the advice/admonition of the bible (God), they could allow themselves the liberty to see that homosexual union, coupling, and love is as deep, real, good and blessed as any similar heterosexual union. If they would (or could) allow themselves to see and understand, then they would begin to reinterpret the bible to accept homosexuality, on the grounds of love, as many Christians now do. Unfortunately Christians are locked into a set of texts who's thinking and evolution stopped about 2000 years ago. Fortunately there is enough ambiguity and conflictinng advice to give room for change and adjustment based on emphasis of one portion or other. The bible's limitations shortcomings contradictions and errors are being shown up these days in all sorts of ways; the homosexual issue being just one of them.
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Post by Guest on Jul 16, 2006 14:22:14 GMT -5
re - accept homosexuality on the grounds of love. Wrong argument, for to disobey a commandment on the grounds of what a person happens to love is to ignore the fact that many vices in the scripture involved love of some kind. Yes, love of vice isn't helpful in understanding this issue, and indeed is a wrong arguement for you to use. The love being talked about here, whether you are able to understand it or not, is like the love spoken of between a man and a woman, a concept I presume you can understand and approve. It makes no difference how deep, real, good and blessed any behavior may or may not be, if God has mandated that it is not permissable then we defer to that much deeper and wiser deep, real, good and blessed. The deeper and wiser understanding is that homosexual love can be as legitimate, useful and good as heterosexual love. In fact it is important, and it does make a difference that it can be deep, real, good and blessed. Fortunately many Christians are coming to understand and recognize this is the case. The "Christians" who "now do" accept what was for thousands of years not acceptable are not Christians, but new age liberals who have given up picking and chosing what portions of scripture to believe or disbelieve, and have simply written their own texts, and clothed themselves with the mantle of Christian respectability. Bert Wow! I think we can see here the real problem of declaring a personal interpretation to be THE word of God. I think most of us are, or should be cautous of such people.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 16, 2006 14:29:17 GMT -5
GUEST: Sexual immorality, which includes homosexuality, will never be OK with God, same as other sins listed next to it.
MRLEO: 1 Tim 2:12 I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a man. Doesn't say not to worship God in song. Also, when compared to Eph 5:19, I get that I SHOULD sing in church, but SHOULD NOT try to teach a man. It's not my place - DURING A CHURCH SERVICE, IN CHURCH, DURING WORSHIP (part of which is teaching, praying, singing, and so on).
mrleo, hawk, whoever else:
The bible does say all of those things (eating shellfish, etc. Some laws were directed toward the priests. Others to all Israel.
BUT DISTINCTIONS between MORAL, CIVIL and DIETARY laws must be understood to see the pictures in the Levitical law. Jesus came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it . . . and he did so, perfectly (Matt 5:17+). The “law and the prophets” all point FORWARD to CHRIST. They are all pictures of His fulfillment of the law.
WE ARE STILL OBLIGATED to God’s MORAL law. When the rich young ruler in Matt 19 comes running to Jesus asking how he could have eternal life, Jesus told him to keep the commandments. Then, he listed SOME of them, “Thou shalt not murder, commit adultery,” and so on, so we know that the 10 commandments are still in effect. This is the MORAL law.
In Rom 1:26, Paul explains that the moral law is still in effect. He mentions both men AND women engaged in sexual immorality in this passage and he also mentions many other sins - gossiping, insolence, haughtiness, boastfulness, faithlessness, foolishness, heartlessness . . . all sins, right along with sexual immorality. All through the NT the moral law is quoted (Eph 4:18, for example: “Let him that stole steal no more”, etc. and on and on.
HAWK: ABOUT SINNERS & CHURCH,
I have not said that one must go to church to be saved. That would be a WORK and salvation is not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8-9).
But in order to be a Christian, I MUST KNOW I AM A SINNER. Then I must REPENT. Turn from my sins.
If I don’t know that I am a sinner, then JESUS DIDN’T DIE FOR ME AND I DON’T BELONG IN A CHURCH, WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST (Rom 5:6). A church is where sick sinners go to get well.
In order, then, to grow as a Christian, I NEED other Christians. Ephesians 4 & 5 pretty much says that a body of Christians is necessary for spiritual growth. Also, Jesus himself preaches on church government: Matt 18:15 +
I am not talking about a church building. But a body of Christians. Wherever they meet, that’s where I am going to worship and learn about the Lord.
Christ's, Jessi
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Post by guest on Jul 16, 2006 14:34:36 GMT -5
That's the problem with today's Christian. He has become accepting of many practices the Bible simply and clearly forbids. The devil has blurred the lines. The sensuality of today's Christian is evident in this "accept homosexuality on the grounds of love" idea. There is such a thing as telling the truth in love. And so . . . in love, I must object. If it were in love, you would understand and accept. Anyone claiming to have the Holy Spirit will not continue in sin. The conviction of the grieved Spirit within because of disobedience will eventually (God's timing is always right) drive a true Christian on his face before Holy God. This will be the senario for many Christians who have not yet come to accept the legitimacy of homosexuality, but ultimately will have to.
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Post by mrleo on Jul 16, 2006 14:38:19 GMT -5
Jessi, why do you pick/choose the verses from Timothy and Ephesians and not
1Cr 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
It clearly states they are to keep silent and are not permitted to speak.
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Post by Gene on Jul 16, 2006 14:39:06 GMT -5
. . . so we know that the 10 commandments are still in effect. This is the MORAL law. . . . Exodus 20:8 -- "Remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy...." One of the 10 commandments, which according to Jessi are still in effect. There are a few Christians who still keep the Sabbath -- Seventh Day Adventists come to mind. Not many others. <Sigh> So many claiming to be Christians, and yet violating such a simple commandment.
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Post by justamom on Jul 16, 2006 15:19:07 GMT -5
C'mon, ladies...I know there are some of you out there who haven't gone to church this morning. And if you did, I hope you can honestly tell me that you didn't make a peep. That means no testifying, no singing, no praying aloud, and not even the quietest murmur of an "Amen, Brother" (no "Amen, Sister" should be self-evident, since sisters shouldn't be saying anything in the first place). You may be fooling the rest of us, but I'm pretty sure you know Who is not being fooled... Nope I never went to church.... we are however on our way to take our daughter and her friend to the movies.... Hope everyone has a wonderful Sunday...
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Post by ClayRandall on Jul 16, 2006 16:44:25 GMT -5
Did you ever wonder who started the idea of church buildings after Christ? I think it was the Catlikkers. They started plenty. Are you a catlikker or a christian? Why does one have to join a church to get to heaven? Bunk. "Catlikker"..........? Is this supposed to be some kind of reference to the Catholic Church? It seems to be intentionally derogatory and, if so, it has no place in civil conversation.
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