|
Post by pinky on Feb 10, 2010 0:00:17 GMT -5
Not a strawman, Jesse, but an observation.
|
|
|
Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 0:01:15 GMT -5
The workers are accountable to no one, that is the sole issue. I'd venture to guess that there are very few workers who feel like they have license to do anything they please. They feel accountable to the friends, the other workers, those not in their faith circle who see their lives, and most of all to God in most cases.
|
|
|
Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 0:04:39 GMT -5
Can anyone tell us all what fourth degree sexual assault includes?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 0:06:02 GMT -5
I just re-read this whole thread - - very interesting that Scott Ross was the first one with any positive words for workers. Can't help but like a guy like that. Thank you Scott!
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 0:09:14 GMT -5
Not a strawman, Jesse, but an observation. Opinionated and subjective observation - therefore a strawman.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 10, 2010 0:10:26 GMT -5
Can anyone tell us all what fourth degree sexual assault includes? Below is the definition of CSC 4th in the state of Michigan, as per the MSP website: {THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT) Act 328 of 1931 750.520e Criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree; misdemeanor. Sec. 520e. (1) A person is guilty of criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree if he or she engages in sexual contact with another person and if any of the following circumstances exist: (a) That other person is at least 13 years of age but less than 16 years of age, and the actor is 5 or more years older than that other person. (b) Force or coercion is used to accomplish the sexual contact. Force or coercion includes, but is not limited to, any of the following circumstances: (i) When the actor overcomes the victim through the actual application of physical force or physical violence. (ii) When the actor coerces the victim to submit by threatening to use force or violence on the victim, and the victim believes that the actor has the present ability to execute that threat. (iii) When the actor coerces the victim to submit by threatening to retaliate in the future against the victim, or any other person, and the victim believes that the actor has the ability to execute that threat. As used in this subparagraph, "to retaliate" includes threats of physical punishment, kidnapping, or extortion. (iv) When the actor engages in the medical treatment or examination of the victim in a manner or for purposes which are medically recognized as unethical or unacceptable. (v) When the actor achieves the sexual contact through concealment or by the element of surprise. (c) The actor knows or has reason to know that the victim is mentally incapable, mentally incapacitated, or physically helpless. (d) That other person is related to the actor by blood or affinity to the third degree and the sexual contact occurs under circumstances not otherwise prohibited by this chapter. It is an affirmative defense to a prosecution under this subdivision that the other person was in a position of authority over the defendant and used this authority to coerce the defendant to violate this subdivision. The defendant has the burden of proving this defense by a preponderance of the evidence. This subdivision does not apply if both persons are lawfully married to each other at the time of the alleged violation. (e) The actor is a mental health professional and the sexual contact occurs during or within 2 years after the period in which the victim is his or her client or patient and not his or her spouse. The consent of the victim is not a defense to a prosecution under this subdivision. A prosecution under this subsection shall not be used as evidence that the victim is mentally incompetent. (f) That other person is at least 16 years of age but less than 18 years of age and a student at a public school or nonpublic school, and either of the following applies: (i) The actor is a teacher, substitute teacher, or administrator of that public school, nonpublic school, school district, or intermediate school district. This subparagraph does not apply if the other person is emancipated or if both persons are lawfully married to each other at the time of the alleged violation. (ii) The actor is an employee or a contractual service provider of the public school, nonpublic school, school district, or intermediate school district in which that other person is enrolled, or is a volunteer who is not a student in any public school or nonpublic school, or is an employee of this state or of a local unit of government of this state or of the United States assigned to provide any service to that public school, nonpublic school, school district, or intermediate school district, and the actor uses his or her employee, contractual, or volunteer status to gain access to, or to establish a relationship with, that other person. (g) That other person is at least 16 years old but less than 26 years of age and is receiving special education services, and either of the following applies: (i) The actor is a teacher, substitute teacher, administrator, employee, or contractual service provider of the public school, nonpublic school, school district, or intermediate school district from which that other person receives the special education services. This subparagraph does not apply if both persons are lawfully married to each other at the time of the alleged violation. (ii) The actor is a volunteer who is not a student in any public school or nonpublic school, or is an employee of this state or of a local unit of government of this state or of the United States assigned to provide any service to that public school, nonpublic school, school district, or intermediate school district, and the actor uses his or her employee, contractual, or volunteer status to gain access to, or to establish a relationship with, that other person. (2) Criminal sexual conduct in the fourth degree is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $500.00, or both.} legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-520E
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 0:16:12 GMT -5
In many states, clergy are specifically obliged by law to report information regarding CSA. Even Catholic confession is not exempt from reporting this. In this specific instance, the workers/overseers who became aware of this may have been legally obliged to report, and they were certainly morally obliged to do so.
CSA is not some new crime, it has become openly dealt with for several decades now and only people who live in a rabbit hole might not know about it. Ignorance is no longer a defense. There is no excuse for anyone in a pastoral role to not report these crimes when they become aware of it. Worker, priest, pastor, minister, whoever....and if they don't report they should be prosecuted in those states where the law requires them.
Sorry, but I see red when I hear that a known crime-committing Briggs was "sent home" and no report made, if that is true. It hardly gets more irresponsible than that.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 0:20:17 GMT -5
Can anyone tell us all what fourth degree sexual assault includes? It wasn't assault, wasn't CSA ie Child Sexual Abuse, it was CSC Criminal Sexual Contact. Given that clarification I don't know if pedophile is the right word to use but I see that people are using it anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 10, 2010 0:22:15 GMT -5
I just re-read this whole thread - - very interesting that Scott Ross was the first one with any positive words for workers. Can't help but like a guy like that. Thank you Scott! You are Welcome. Trying to place the blame for CSA on the 'workers' isn't going to solve the problem. It is a matter of educating everyone in regard to their responsibilities when confronted by CSA. Scott
|
|
|
Post by Rob O on Feb 10, 2010 0:24:16 GMT -5
Not a strawman, Jesse, but an observation. Opinionated and subjective observation - therefore a strawman. Fail. An opinion is not automatically a strawman. All observations are subjective as they are all experienced in the first person. Call your strawman and raise you one non sequitur.
|
|
|
Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 0:32:05 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott.
Given the fact that he was wrestling with the kid... that would indicate physical force and place it in the 4th degree category. I assume that men who are wrestling as a sport might wear protection against a misplaced grab, just like in football or hockey players? I'm not claiming to know if there was a "misplaced" grab or an "intentional" grab in the wrong spot in this case, but a person could be convicted either way, especially given the age difference of the wrestlers in this case.
Sad if it is a predatory case, sad if it is poor judgement and non predatory. Sad for the victim and the convicted and their families. I hope that somehow things can be made right for all involved. Praying it could be so, somehow, some way.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 0:36:39 GMT -5
I just re-read this whole thread - - very interesting that Scott Ross was the first one with any positive words for workers. Can't help but like a guy like that. Thank you Scott! You are Welcome. Trying to place the blame for CSA on the 'workers' isn't going to solve the problem. It is a matter of educating everyone in regard to their responsibilities when confronted by CSA. Scott I would suggest that the real culprit is the culture of secrecy and ignorance, resulting in naivety. Everyone has a role in breaking that down whether worker, parent or anyone who cares about children and face the fact that the danger may be anywhere, especially with those whom you trust the most.....most often family. This church needs to start talking and stop repression of discussion. Boards like these are some of the few places where rational discussion of these issues are taking place. They sure aren't taking place amongst the local churches except by whisper.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 0:40:57 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. Given the fact that he was wrestling with the kid... that would indicate physical force and place it in the 4th degree category. I assume that men who are wrestling as a sport might wear protection against a misplaced grab, just like in football or hockey players? I'm not claiming to know if there was a "misplaced" grab or an "intentional" grab in the wrong spot in this case, but a person could be convicted either way, especially given the age difference of the wrestlers in this case. Sad if it is a predatory case, sad if it is poor judgement and non predatory. Sad for the victim and the convicted and their families. I hope that somehow things can be made right for all involved. Praying it could be so, somehow, some way. No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by Done4now on Feb 10, 2010 0:47:53 GMT -5
Thanks, Scott. Given the fact that he was wrestling with the kid... that would indicate physical force and place it in the 4th degree category. I assume that men who are wrestling as a sport might wear protection against a misplaced grab, just like in football or hockey players? I'm not claiming to know if there was a "misplaced" grab or an "intentional" grab in the wrong spot in this case, but a person could be convicted either way, especially given the age difference of the wrestlers in this case. Sad if it is a predatory case, sad if it is poor judgement and non predatory. Sad for the victim and the convicted and their families. I hope that somehow things can be made right for all involved. Praying it could be so, somehow, some way. No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. amen. adults have to be very careful even about things that COULD be innocent horse play. avoid even the appearance of evil.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 0:48:11 GMT -5
Opinionated and subjective observation - therefore a strawman. Fail. An opinion is not automatically a strawman. All observations are subjective as they are all experienced in the first person. Call your strawman and raise you one non sequitur. I said the observation was both opinionated and subjective. Any observation distorted by subjective opinion to the point it doesn't match objective reality exists as a strawman in the mind of it's creator and cannot logically be projected as objective reality.
|
|
|
Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 1:06:46 GMT -5
Any time we would choose to report an incident, we first must make a judgment on whether we think it happened. If we didn't witness it and we ask all involved what happened and we can't really determine, we go some on our gut feeling of which person we should trust, who seems to be truthful, who might have reason to lie, etc. If my high school daughter said that some boy touched her chest at school and I found that it happened when there was a collision at first base in PE, I think I'd put it on hold with all radar out for a long time, and not report it.
If a neighbor kid showed up at my house with bruises, I have to make a judgement call on whether I should report or not. I'd have to consider if I suspected violence before, whether the kid is clumsy or not, etc., etc.
I'm sure there have been cases of intentional coverup by overseers, but also cases of indecision because they didn't have enough evidence to accuse. False accusations can be as injurious and devastating as just and deserved convictions. If the victim themselves or their family aren't willing to report it, and we don't have enough evidence to support it and have a hard time believing a whispered rumor, what are we to do? These are always judgment calls left to each individual. There's a happy medium between never reporting and always reporting... I think it's called wisdom.
|
|
|
Post by sofastarch on Feb 10, 2010 1:11:59 GMT -5
No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. Agreed. This is poor judgment at best.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 1:24:28 GMT -5
No 30+ year old man should be wrestling with an underaged kid under any circumstances. amen. adults have to be very careful even about things that COULD be innocent horse play. avoid even the appearance of evil. What about a wrestling coach? Yeah like I said, soon to be nothing left but a bunch of neutered, waxed, and pettycured girly men, the only people allowed to wrestle will be buff and hairy legged manly women. Yuck.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 1:25:24 GMT -5
Any time we would choose to report an incident, we first must make a judgment on whether we think it happened. If we didn't witness it and we ask all involved what happened and we can't really determine, we go some on our gut feeling of which person we should trust, who seems to be truthful, who might have reason to lie, etc. If my high school daughter said that some boy touched her chest at school and I found that it happened when there was a collision at first base in PE, I think I'd put it on hold with all radar out for a long time, and not report it. If a neighbor kid showed up at my house with bruises, I have to make a judgement call on whether I should report or not. I'd have to consider if I suspected violence before, whether the kid is clumsy or not, etc., etc. I'm sure there have been cases of intentional coverup by overseers, but also cases of indecision because they didn't have enough evidence to accuse. False accusations can be as injurious and devastating as just and deserved convictions. If the victim themselves or their family aren't willing to report it, and we don't have enough evidence to support it and have a hard time believing a whispered rumor, what are we to do? These are always judgment calls left to each individual. There's a happy medium between never reporting and always reporting... I think it's called wisdom. That's a very pragmatic post sofastarch. Reporting isn't always black and white, we all wish it was. Accusations can easily be false. I would think though that the reporter should err on the reporting side. Reporting does not mean charges nor a conviction. It is a very difficult experience for the falsely accused. However, I think if I was falsely accused, even privately, I would strongly consider going to the authorities myself for an investigation in order to get cleared. False accusations by whisper can be more damaging than than being openly accused. The whispers make someone guilty forever, but a professional investigation can go a long way to counter that, and will make the false accuser think twice about trying it on someone else.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 1:29:14 GMT -5
amen. adults have to be very careful even about things that COULD be innocent horse play. avoid even the appearance of evil. What about a wrestling coach? Yeah like I said, soon to be nothing left but a bunch of neutered, waxed, and pettycured girly men, the only people allowed to wrestle will be buff and hairy legged manly women. Yuck. Well Jesse, if you think it is manly for you to start wrestling with a 10 year old girl or boy, you have a different idea of manliness than me.
|
|
|
Post by Done4now on Feb 10, 2010 1:33:03 GMT -5
amen. adults have to be very careful even about things that COULD be innocent horse play. avoid even the appearance of evil. What about a wrestling coach? Yeah like I said, soon to be nothing left but a bunch of neutered, waxed, and pettycured girly men, the only people allowed to wrestle will be buff and hairy legged manly women. Yuck. a wrestling coach is a teacher (who goes through extensive education and a thorough background investigation before they work with children). Also--when they coach they are typically in a gymnasium surrounded by many people. Totally different situation from a "man of god" who comes in to stay with the family and is treated as an honored guest--yet is indulging in rough-housing and possibly inappropriate touching of the children. In many cases the workers are so trusted and respected that the parents have no worries about leaving them alone with the children. sorry I do NOT see a parallel. I know many people who have entertained and trusted predators in their homes. My sister actually used to play scrabble alone in the basement with Ira Hobbes when she was 9-11 years old and he was in her field. Fortunately for him she says he never did anything inappropriate with her.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2010 1:39:21 GMT -5
Teachers and coaches are very well trained in boundaries and appropriateness. For that matter, most kids are also trained on what to expect from adults, except for families who refuse to discuss such matters.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 2:11:04 GMT -5
"these predators" See that clearday? There's the bashwagon. Did you read my post to aussiegal? Try it you'll probably see more of the bashwagon than you ever wanted to.
|
|
|
Post by pinky on Feb 10, 2010 2:31:02 GMT -5
Any observation distorted by subjective opinion to the point it doesn't match objective reality exists as a strawman in the mind of it's creator and cannot logically be projected as objective reality. LOL .. your own opinion that you are NOT in blind defense of workers is an observation distorted by subjective opinion to the point it doesn't match objective reality - and wait for it - cannot logically be projected as objective reality.So I am not impartial in opinions about you, but apparently you are! ;D Ciao.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 2:43:38 GMT -5
BTW teachers, doctors, pastors, auto mechanics, nurses, daycare workers, etc.etc. commit CSA too. If the people on the bashwagon acted the same way towards all those people as they do towards "the workers" they would never send their kids to school, church camps, daycare, hunters safety, drivers ed, or anything like that. How about CSA training with daycare providors? Do the bashwagoneers check for that? My wife and I went through the MinsitrySafe training session Lyle set up for me. We were so impressed paid for a yearly module. That training was offered here on these pages for any who wanted it , I can find the posts. One person took advantage of that offer, Scott Ross. We paid the MinstrySafe renewal for 2010 but I asked them to donate it to someone who could use it more than we would. Pretty sad the workers are expected to be absolutely perfect while it's ok for the rest of us sit on our dead butts and criticise them through computer screens. Yeah I'm a little disappointed, and frustrated, sorry it shows.
|
|
|
Post by Jesse_Lackman on Feb 10, 2010 2:48:25 GMT -5
pinky, whatever, the fights out of me now, maybe you would be interested in CSA training?
|
|
|
Post by aussiegal on Feb 10, 2010 2:58:30 GMT -5
Can anyone tell us all what fourth degree sexual assault includes? It wasn't assault, wasn't CSA ie Child Sexual Abuse, it was CSC Criminal Sexual Contact. Given that clarification I don't know if pedophile is the right word to use but I see that people are using it anyway. Jesse... he is now on the registered sex offenders list because of this conviction - and the conviction is because of criminal sexual conduct with an 11 year old boy. Pedophile is the right word - I dont know why you're trying to minimise this and why you're trying so hard to make out that everyone is on some worker bashing wagon! Let's focus on the issue at hand here - and it's the conviction of a man (who happened to be a worker at the time) for sexual conduct of a child. I haven't seen anyone imply that ALL workers are pedophiles or sexual deviants... are you trying to change the subject by your constant talk about this bandwagon I wonder?
|
|
|
Post by Done4now on Feb 10, 2010 3:02:13 GMT -5
BTW teachers, doctors, pastors, auto mechanics, nurses, daycare workers, etc.etc. commit CSA too. If the people on the bashwagon acted the same way towards all those people as they do towards "the workers" they would never send their kids to school, church camps, daycare, hunters safety, drivers ed, or anything like that. How about CSA training with daycare providors? Do the bashwagoneers check for that? My wife and I went through the MinsitrySafe training session Lyle set up for me. We were so impressed paid for a yearly module. That training was offered here on these pages for any who wanted it , I can find the posts. One person took advantage of that offer, Scott Ross. We paid the MinstrySafe renewal for 2010 but I asked them to donate it to someone who could use it more than we would. Pretty sad the workers are expected to be absolutely perfect while it's ok for the rest of us sit on our dead butts and criticise them through computer screens. Yeah I'm a little disappointed, and frustrated, sorry it shows. I haven't seen anyone condone CSA as being OK if it is done by "teachers, doctors, pastors, auto mechanics, nurses, daycare workers, etc.etc." I raised 5 children--and if anyone touched my children I would castrate him. Regardless of what his profession was. (I use "he" because overwhelmingly sexual predators are men) But we aren't talking about teachers or doctors. The discussion here is about a particular problem within a particular context. And I do think workers have a unique position because part of their job description REQUIRES them to live in homes with minor children who are not related to them. And they are treated with deference and respect no matter what they do. And the group tends to be secretive to the point of craziness. And in the past anyone who spoke out against it in any way was vilified--look at how poor Ms. Trotter was treated here. A few workers taking an on-line course at their own discretion may be a step in the right direction, but it doesn't ease my mind. I know that when someone has a predilection to do this kind of thing it is nearly impossible to modify their behavior--even with intense therapy over a lengthy period of time.
|
|