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Post by Westsask on Feb 7, 2007 17:10:30 GMT -5
Here is my 2 cents on the Syd Lee case.
When Syd left/pushed out, of the work, he still was in full fellowship for a while, as he was responsible for the building of a new meeting shed at Aylsbury convention. Later he was shunned, I know this because a close friend of mine, who is an elder, was told by Dale Shultz not to have anything to do with him.
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Post by Trust me on Feb 7, 2007 18:22:39 GMT -5
Yes, part of the reason why this was not taken to the authorities WAS because they thought it would hurt "the Truth". I believe they also thought they could deal with it more effectively (i.e. with more truth, justice and mercy) than the authorities could. And, yes, last but not least, I believe they wanted to leave the door open for restoration for Syd in case he ever showed true repentance.
Remember, this was a lot more naive time, and none of these men, however good their intentions, had any training for dealing with this kind of situation. For the most part, these people did not even have the vocabulary to talk about these kinds of things. Indeed, as a society, we have learned a lot about sexual predators and dealing with sexual impropriety in the years since.
To attribute this to political maneuvering, to me, is just not rational. If these men were vying for top leadership posts (which I doubt) there would have been far easier ways to sideline the other candidates.
I am actually quite surprised, Edgar, that you knew so little. As far as you saying that MB workers were given no better explanation than you were (i.e, insinuations and no specifics), I find that very hard to believe. The details were common knowledge among MB workers and friends of all age groups at that time. It was left up to the individual elders how much they shared with individuals within their respective congregations, but I think most elders dealt with it pretty directly and pretty factually.
Has it occurred to you that the MB workers you were "close" to at that time, did not care to share what they knew with you for some reason?
As far as Frank Thomas was concerned, I personally know two young males (both close to me and totally credible) who were approached by him in an inappropriate way. Neither of these men talked about the incidents until recent years and neither knew that there had been others, so this was NOT part of an ugly political campaign.
If you want to be an advocate for truth and justice, then a dash of humility goes a long way. Don't let yourself become jaded and out of balance. You can be far more effective if you are able to objectively acknowledge the good with the bad.
And, before you accuse me of being a 2X2 supporter - no, that is not the case. I am an outie, and have no love for the system. But I dearly love many people who are still part of it.
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Post by trusting others on Feb 7, 2007 18:24:42 GMT -5
I can see that you like most other 2x2 supporters have decided to express your disrespect for Sids entire life -- and all the kings horses and all the kings men won't change that. I If the stories about him, that I have heard about him first now on this thread are true I have no disrespect for Sid's life. Because I've never even heard of the guy before. And now all I've heard is a bunch of people's accounts. I don't base anything on what I hear second-hand. It's all unsubstantiated crap. Kind of like saying that California workers forbid the friends from going to the authorities about a worker. So everything you know and learn is witnessed by you first hand. No one (unless you are God) can be a witness to every event known. Don't believe the news as it is someone elses account. Unless it happened to me you won't believe it or is it unless it happened to you you won't believe it? You are not a very trusting person. You obviously do not trust your own judgement to decern truth and error.
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Post by sharing on Feb 7, 2007 18:31:22 GMT -5
Trust me wrote none of these men had any training to deal with this kind of situation? Do they have training in these things? The workers do not have any kind of training in these matters. Not even today.
Maybe the workers that were close to Edgar didn't share everything with him. They were hoping the problem would go away. It stands to reason that they did not want him to know about it.
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Post by slow to see on Feb 7, 2007 18:51:39 GMT -5
I was "professing" in Manitoba at the time of Syd's "leaving" the work. Although I was still quite naive at the time, I did question a little about what had happened and was given a VERY vague unclear answer, which I accepted at the time. I had only professed for a while, so maybe they couldn't be open about it to "spare me", I guess. I asked my ex-elder about it, today, and he said he was NOT given a straight answer either. His answer from the older lady worker in our field at the time, was to the effect that God cleanses HIS kingdom in HIS own way and time and we need to leave it at that. In our area, I was only aware of innuendo and "whisperings" , but , like I said, I was only "new in the way". One has to feel sorry for the inocent workers , really, because they will ALL be viewed suspiciously because of the crimes of the guilty ones. If it prevents ANY sexual abuse cases though, it a good thing. FWIW, Alvin
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Post by nwj on Feb 7, 2007 19:34:24 GMT -5
Edgar and "fair trial",
Could you explain more about the allegations against Hanson and Kendrew? Were they involving children or adults? If children, girls or boys? Was it a single accusation or were there several?
I do not need much details - just enough to be aware and informed.
Thank you!
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Post by amazed on Feb 7, 2007 19:57:59 GMT -5
One has to feel sorry for the inocent workers , really, because they will ALL be viewed suspiciously because of the crimes of the guilty ones. If it prevents ANY sexual abuse cases though, it a good thing. FWIW, Alvin Yes, I do feel sorry for all the workers who are just doing their best. It's the same with all the innocent Catholic priests. They all have to live with being painted with the same broad brush until people start to feel some trust again.
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Post by yeppers on Feb 7, 2007 20:21:20 GMT -5
yeah! same with the ex's-broad brush paints them bitter, deluded, mis-led, lost, wanting the world..........
yeah! same with members of truth-broad brush paints them nasty, unloving or conditional love, narrow-minded, exclusivists.......
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Post by diet coke on Feb 7, 2007 20:25:52 GMT -5
"yeppers" actually said something real! And I actually agree!
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Post by trust on Feb 7, 2007 22:28:03 GMT -5
So everything you know and learn is witnessed by you first hand. No one (unless you are God) can be a witness to every event known. Don't believe the news as it is someone elses account. Unless it happened to me you won't believe it or is it unless it happened to you you won't believe it? You are not a very trusting person. You obviously do not trust your own judgement to decern truth and error. Oh yeah, that's intelligent. I'm just supposed to trust something because I read it on a discussion board. LOL. Besides, do you think that Edgar is an unbiased source of information on the 2x2's? Good one. And by the way, it's discern, not decern. I think that word was on one of my fourth grade spelling tests.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 4:29:17 GMT -5
Edgar and "fair trial", Could you explain more about the allegations against Hanson and Kendrew? Were they involving children or adults? If children, girls or boys? Was it a single accusation or were there several? I do not need much details - just enough to be aware and informed. Thank you! I don't know much at all about Eldon Kendrew -- And although Ron Hanson was a close personal friend of mine (both from our years in the work together .. and even from our boyhoods) he was placed under an oath never to talk about what had happened. So I am only aware of the unverified gossip that workers leaked out to be spread by the 'hearsay winds' He was apparently caught in some kind of an inappropriate situation and asked to leave the work. The implication was that it was 'very very bad' -- but if it was half as bad as the gossip winds imply it definitely should have been reported to the police .. or at least openly informed about. I can't disregard the fact that he was getting up into the age and experience that he was becoming a political threat. (he is considerably older than the 'overseer' in Alberta now ) Sexual misconduct has often been used in political exploitation in the group. There are hundreds of examples -- yet pedophiles that don't pose the same political threat are protected. (you need pawns to have a chess game!!!) Wouldn't surprise me if Kendrew was something similar. There is probably a certain amount of truth in the accusations -- smart politicians learn how to exploit the weaknesses of competition to their plans!!.
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Post by there ya have it on Feb 8, 2007 5:02:32 GMT -5
There you have it from Edgar. Eldon Kendrew and Ron Hanson were framed by Dale Schultz so that his prodigy Merlin Affleck could take over Alberta. Happens all the time. That's just how those dastardly 2x2s work. You heard it here first. Spread the word. Oh, and leave your children unattended with the workers, this stuff about child molestation is all political lies anyway. What I really want to know now is, who framed Roger Rabbit anyway?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 5:14:06 GMT -5
There you have it from Edgar. Eldon Kendrew and Ron Hanson were framed by Dale Schultz so that his prodigy Merlin Affleck could take over Alberta. Happens all the time. That's just how those dastardly 2x2s work. You heard it here first. Spread the word. Oh, and leave your children unattended with the workers, this stuff about child molestation is all political lies anyway. What I really want to know now is, who framed Roger Rabbit anyway? Did Dale Shultz has something to do with it? I guess you gotta trust the workers -- they'r do'in Gods will.
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Post by there ya have it on Feb 8, 2007 5:20:41 GMT -5
There you have it from Edgar. Eldon Kendrew and Ron Hanson were framed by Dale Schultz so that his prodigy Merlin Affleck could take over Alberta. Happens all the time. That's just how those dastardly 2x2s work. You heard it here first. Spread the word. Oh, and leave your children unattended with the workers, this stuff about child molestation is all political lies anyway. What I really want to know now is, who framed Roger Rabbit anyway? Did Dale Shultz has something to do with it? He must have, those nasty workers are all the same you know. They spend most of their time plotting schemes to move up to the top. Nobody gets to the top without stepping on lots of people on the way. He just had to be the real cause. This way he controls California and Alberta, which is like controlling the whole world! Wow, and you can't get there without framing lots of people!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 5:57:05 GMT -5
Did Dale Shultz has something to do with it? He must have, those nasty workers are all the same you know. They spend most of their time plotting schemes to move up to the top. Nobody gets to the top without stepping on lots of people on the way. He just had to be the real cause. This way he controls California and Alberta, which is like controlling the whole world! Wow, and you can't get there without framing lots of people! I agree -- nobody makes it to the top positions in the 2x2 high councils without proving unconditional loyalty to the system. Some of these boys did start out with admirable moral principles -- I was Dales companion a full year in Southern Saskatchewan when truth was important to him... Rather tragic how it has gone, I agree.
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Post by probably on Feb 8, 2007 7:35:37 GMT -5
the overseers would probably have been successful CEO's
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 7:58:20 GMT -5
the overseers would probably have been successful CEO's They are CEO's --- Some are more successful than others.
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Post by conspiracy theory on Feb 8, 2007 9:25:21 GMT -5
Did Dale Shultz has something to do with it? He must have, those nasty workers are all the same you know. They spend most of their time plotting schemes to move up to the top. Nobody gets to the top without stepping on lots of people on the way. He just had to be the real cause. This way he controls California and Alberta, which is like controlling the whole world! Wow, and you can't get there without framing lots of people! Sure enough. They start as transient servants of God... and then all that money and power eats them alive and they decide they want to run the whole show. Oh brother. Edgar, you need to quit reading so many Grisham novels. We all know that no religion is perfect and that there are bad seeds in every group. But this whole "political power and ousting" thing is silly.
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Post by beyond silly on Feb 8, 2007 10:03:52 GMT -5
"Sure enough. They start as transient servants of God... and then all that money and power eats them alive and they decide they want to run the whole show. Oh brother.
Edgar, you need to quit reading so many Grisham novels.
We all know that no religion is perfect and that there are bad seeds in every group. But this whole "political power and ousting" thing is silly. "
It's beyond silly really. I posted the Dale Schultz stuff as joke and now I'm starting to think that some people might actually take it seriously.
Earth to space cadets------come home!
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Post by conspiracy politics on Feb 8, 2007 10:43:09 GMT -5
I think Edgar is just mad because he never got his shot at "Truth CEO." Sounds like he needs to let that go and lay off the paranoia-causing drugs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2007 10:53:44 GMT -5
I certainly agree that 'this political power and ousting" thing is silly -- furthermore it is in complete conflict with the spirit and teaching of Christ.
A person can actually read about it in the new testament tho -- Read about all the conniving that religious leadership had to go through there, to get Jesus nailed to the cross (so he wouldn't be a threat to them). The idea itself is not new. Just a copy of an old pattern where they claimed their superior righteousness as well!!!!
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Post by another reason on Feb 8, 2007 11:05:40 GMT -5
Edgar points out another good reason why workers should always make sure accused sex offenders are reported to the authorities.
If they don't report, the good workers get falsely accused of framing people for political purposes. By not reporting, the offenders get away with it, and the workers get tarnished. Everybody loses, including the victim.
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Post by rampant silliness on Feb 8, 2007 11:34:00 GMT -5
I certainly agree that 'this political power and ousting" thing is silly -- As silly as claiming that a "secret picture" was smuggled out of a high-level workers meeting when the "secret workers" were sitting there posed for a picture? You are a funny man.
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Post by lovedoes on Feb 8, 2007 13:09:05 GMT -5
I am from Oregon and have only heard of the Reuben Mata case second hand. I was expecting that those from California would be more forthcoming but so far they haven't given the details, probably because they don't want to be attacked in the same way people have attacked Edgar Massey for exposing the scandals. This quote came from someone in California. "I do not have Reuben's case number but this is what I have received in an email from one of my other cousins who was at the sentencing. Reuben got 6 years for the first count and 15 for the second and 15 for the third. That is consecutive, so he has a total of 36 years to life. He would be 90 by that time so there isn't much chance for him to ever be on the street again. The judge talked to him pretty straight and told him he chose this himself because he had plenty of time to change during the years before the trial after he turned himself in, etc. The judge almost broke down when she was talking to him. She told him he was not at all eligible for parole and even if he was she wouldn't give it to him! I really don't know too much more regarding Reuben but certainly feel the judge was good and am glad for the sentencing. I was not aware that he had turned himself in and wonder what the judge did mean by that statement." I was told that Reuben's mom and the head workers did everything they could to keep him from being prosecuted. They did not want people to find out. There was a brother worker, Duane Wong, in Oregon who was sent to jail for several years for molesting multiple children while he was in the worker. He was put out of the work, and got married and then molested his own daughter. There was a worker from the state of Washington who was in Africa for a number of years and he was sent home from Africa and put out of the work for the same reason and then he married and adopted children and molested his daughter. I have a whole list of workers and elders who have been found guilty of this problem through the years. I suspect that the reason that the head workers cover up the problem is because there are so many sexual scandals that if they got rid of them all, they wouldn't have many workers left. One exworker told me that when the workers are together, they often discuss the latest scandals. So, it isn't as if these things are being done without anyone's knowledge. The head workers are usually the earliest ones to hear about them because the other workers must report up. In fact, they are trained to tell the head workers everything. Why do you people, who are so quick to defend the workers, actually think that this kind of a lifestyle does not proliferate such problems? I don't feel as judgmental against these workers as I do against the system that sets everyone up for sexual problems. It is the system that is more evil than the workers. Workers are more victimized by this system than anyone. With all due respect, 'kathy', I agree with part of your post, in that there is no perfect 'system' and some systems are set up in such a way as be dysfunctional. Yet, the "worker system" as it has been called, is unique in that they do go 2 and 2; now, why would that be a good thing? Maybe for one worker to help the other worker tow the line......stay in line and to be another set of eyes and ears; a witness also. Now, lets get real here: these workers don't have much time alone by themselves, let alone with anyone else. They are usually with someone: their companion; and/or folks they stay with. They do not stay with single women if they are males and they do not stay with single males if they are women. No, it is not a fool proof system, but find me a fool proof system out there, "kathy". I don't think it exists. The have the Catholic priest scandal. But there are also other scandals in other churches; pastors that have affairs with multiple women [or men] in their churches; this issue affects anyone, anywhere. Most people who are sexually abused or raped know their perp. Let's look at the medical profession: a perfect example of a 'system' that by it's nature allows others to have access to the possibility of sexual misconduct. That's why some DR.'s never see a pt. alone. Still, even with a witness present, you will have inaccurate reporting of what really happened and yes, you will have COVERUPS. Teachers covering for teachers, cops covering for cops, and dr. covering for dr.s'. Not saying it's right, but,let's get real here: has every Dr. or nurse reported every sexual misconduct they have seen or suspected? Have there been coverups? Is there a process in place to report sexual misconduct? Is that process utilized as much as it should be? Does that process ensure the problem will be fixed?
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Post by nwj on Feb 8, 2007 18:02:26 GMT -5
Edgar, Thank you for replying about Hanson and Kendrew. Even though you do not have the information I was wondering about with respect to children and girls/boys, I appreciate your responding.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Mar 6, 2007 2:18:34 GMT -5
I agree.
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Post by Brad Lewis on Mar 7, 2007 2:05:45 GMT -5
I wonder how many head workers are guilty of hiding felons in their ministry?
Brad
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Post by Its true on Mar 9, 2007 21:41:14 GMT -5
I think the referral was to Stanley Lee (the overseer in Manitoba/Northern Ontario for many years) brother Sid Lee being put out of the work for alleged sexual abuse in the late 60s or early 70s. None of the facts were ever laid on the table (and the secrecy was in full place - ) (I was in the work in the area at the time). Sid Lee claimed his innocence until he died a few years ago now (In Regina Saskatchewan) -- and there were ample political reasons to silence him , so I have my doubts as to the truth ever being important to senior workers at the time. Incidentally, a year or so ago I got a letter from the lady who had taken hand of Sid's possessions after he died, and she wrote me a very nice letter about some letters from me she found in his possessions. Perhaps one of the greatest regrets I have about my time in the work, was my lack of courage to do some independent research about the reality in the numerous folks zapped by the system back then. Instead, I just swallowed what I was told -- and today I am not proud of it. Many of the official story's given then, have proved to be massively misleading!!! Edgar Clarence Hunt was also a worker in a similar age group at the time, and was mangled badly and discredited in the political struggles then -- but never completely zapped. Other workers I wonder about today are Willie and Millie McAlrath (a married couple) that were put out of the work when I was a boy. I know my mom and dad questioned it at the time -- but (like I did later) accepted the 'we know best' explanation that senior workers gave. We met with a family who moved to our mtg, and they were one of the ones who blew the whistle on SL - it was their daughter. The mother was in bad shape over it...so am afraid it was true. This was in the late 70's
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