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Post by JoAnn on Feb 6, 2007 17:56:19 GMT -5
Back in the early 1900s we had a worker in our field that could never be found. The overseer would call him constantly, and no one knew where he was. This was an all day thing every single day. Finally the overseer came to our house for the night so he could follow this other worker. Guess where he found he was going? He was seeing a prostitute. Unreal. I didn't want to believe it, but it was true. He was kicked out of the work and ordered back home with his parents. I have been very sad to think he would do something like that.
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 6, 2007 18:06:04 GMT -5
They had telephones in the early 1900's???
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Post by And was on Feb 6, 2007 18:07:12 GMT -5
I remember that rather vividly. As I recall it was finally revealed the prostitues name was JoAnn if I'm not mistaken! I'll have to dig up the newspaper articles, but my recollection is that she eventually had 15 children. They all went into the work because they say how loving and honest their dad was!
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Post by JoAnn on Feb 6, 2007 18:28:32 GMT -5
They had telephones in the early 1900's??? This is no lie. It was 1995 to be exact. Ask Leslie White and he will tell you. He was the overseer.
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Yes thety did Virginia
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Post by Yes thety did Virginia on Feb 6, 2007 18:30:38 GMT -5
They had telephones in the early 1900's??? The first commercial telephone switchboard opened in 1878 in New Haven, Connecticut with eight lines and twenty-one subscribers. By 1900 telephones were somewhat common.
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Post by fair trial on Feb 6, 2007 18:37:20 GMT -5
Oh, the Syd Lee "accusations" had basis. And I'm not a senior worker either! ;D Why were they not reported to the proper authorities then? Was he given a fair trial? Or just subjected to superior worker discretion? I have heard different versions. Edgar, if you could have 15 seconds to look into the eyes of his victim 30 years ago, you wouldn't have needed any more evidence. However, there was indeed a basis for this. If it were me, I would have hung him first, then given him a fair trial. Fortunately for him, serving justice isn't placed in my hands. Yes, judging the friends and workers by the standards of today, Lee should have been sent packing to the police immediately, but this was over 30 years ago and there was a lot of confusion over this issue about what to do about it. Many church groups were unclear on what to do about it at that time. You have to remember that authorities weren't well prepared to handle this either at the time, society covered this stuff up everywhere until the late '60's. However, Hanson and Kendrew on the other hand, should have been referred to the authorities, no question about it and the fact that they didn't speaks to the moral corruption at the top of the ministry in Alberta at the time. The ministry in Alberta have no excuses on those cases.
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Post by Really on Feb 6, 2007 18:44:58 GMT -5
The debate is more whether one paints a group with the deeds of a few or alledge the group condones it. That is my concern.
This is slightly disingenious, IMO. We're talking about the "perfect" way, remember? The one that hesitates not for a second to criticize others for any flaw, at all.....whether real or perceived. IMO, this is simply very distasteful medicine for you.
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Post by Wondering on Feb 6, 2007 21:59:50 GMT -5
When you look back over a couple of the message threads, it sure seems like there have been a LOT of these cases. It makes one wonder how pervasive this problem really is in the 2x2's. I've always felt that a celibate life was absolutely un-natural particularly for men. I wouldn't be surprised if the same situation exists in any religion that demands celibacy.
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Post by speaking out on Feb 6, 2007 22:25:59 GMT -5
When you look back over a couple of the message threads, it sure seems like there have been a LOT of these cases. It makes one wonder how pervasive this problem really is in the 2x2's. I've always felt that a celibate life was absolutely un-natural particularly for men. I wouldn't be surprised if the same situation exists in any religion that demands celibacy. ............. and then you have people like Kathy and Edgar who speak out about these things and get put down and accused of exaggerating. Then you get those who take the opposite stance who feel that people like them should speak out and do more about it. Seems like some people can't win.
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Post by pervasive on Feb 6, 2007 22:29:13 GMT -5
When you look back over a couple of the message threads, it sure seems like there have been a LOT of these cases. It makes one wonder how pervasive this problem really is in the 2x2's. I've always felt that a celibate life was absolutely un-natural particularly for men. I wouldn't be surprised if the same situation exists in any religion that demands celibacy. Probably not pervasive at all, especially considering that this type of individual would be attracted to this kind of lifestyle. Also, when you think of the thousands of workers who have cycled through the system over the last 30 years of a more open society, the known number of bad guys is quite small. I would guess some of the bad guys got the boot before they could do damage. It's been the talented deceptive types who survived long enough to exact damage on people, and there really haven't been large numbers that we know of. In the last 10 years of the internet phenomena, I would say it would be very hard for any sicko to escape public detection for long.
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Post by Trust me on Feb 7, 2007 0:45:56 GMT -5
I totally agree with fair trial's assessment of this situation.
I really think the way this situation was dealt with was quite remarkable for the time. They met with all the elders in the province of Manitoba, gave them the facts, and asked them to share as much or as little with the individuals in their respective congregations as they thought they were capable of handling. It was shocking to most, and yet it was a real bonding time among 2X2's within the province. I don't personally know of any who were included in the process who were left with questions or doubts.
It was different just across the border in Saskatchewan, as Edgar has illustrated. The situation was not spoken of openly there, and people were left to their own doubts and to draw their own conclusions. As Syd subsequently moved to Saskatchewan, and though he was no longer a 2X2, he 'faithfully' attended 2X2 gospel meetings until he died. Syd did his share of talking to any one who would listen, to promote questioning over the fairness of how he was treated.
Manitoba was actually a good place to be a 2X2 in the years following this incident. I've never since seen such a humble and sincere bunch of workers, simply trusting in God's ability to look after things.
Remarkable, what God is able to do, if we just let him. A little openness and a little honesty goes a long way.
Of course, if this kind of situation was to happen these days, the authorities probably should be involved. We live and learn. At any time, we simply do what we know to do. Now that we know better (as a society), we do better.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 1:36:23 GMT -5
Just as the Catholic church has found, most sexual abuse cases don't come to light before many years have passed. -- And similar to what the Catholic church has experienced, 2x2 leadership behavior is to go into denial as long as possible - One of the first steps to any credible honest reform is to face the past ---- seems 2x2ers are incapable of this. Have you ever heard an admission that historical senior workers have contributed to the corruption that is obviously on the table? Remember -- this is the only perfect way on the earth!!!!!
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Post by Scott Parish on Feb 7, 2007 2:39:15 GMT -5
I am writing this to offer my personal experience with this situation.
We were called in May 2000 and told that RM was being put out of the work and sent home. We were told that he had raped children in the past. We were told that those with children were also being warned.
I called him personally and told him I knew why he was home and offered my help as a Christian brother. It was my hope and prayer that we might see a miracle...like that mentioned in I Corinthians 6:9-11 take place.
He was sent to our home for Sunday morning meeting. RM showed no sign of sorrow or repentance. His mother did not know why he was home and still has not been told, to my knowledge. If she had, she might have been able instrumental in his repentance. VM over-ruled all other counsel by saying that knowledge of the real truth would send her to her grave. That stopped all mouths.
I was asleep at the wheel, though. When we understood the reality of what he did to these children, there was an explosion in my house. Not only did we have our own four children, but we had a foster child at the time. My wife demanded that RM not be allowed back in our home. So I called Walter Pollock that night and told him RM could not come back. He didn't know if it could be accomplished so soon but I told him I had a legal problem - I couldn't allow a known child rapist to enter my home - my foster child would be removed. Further, I told him that I could not allow for the sake of my own children's safety. I believe at that point, RM was asked not to come to meeting at all. However, one man continued to allow him to come to the union meeting in his home.
The perverted acts that RM performed on his victims do not bear writing or verbalizing. They were horrific. It happened around the corner of the house, in the garage, in the back yard, in the bedroom on the other side of the wall where his companion was talking with the parents.... This was told us by a mother of one of the victims.
Since not every one knew of the situation, there was speculation and rumor in the area. Since it was not to be discussed, this speculation and rumor created division.
How should it be dealt with? Should he come to meeting? All kinds of questions arose, without resolution. But plenty of behind the scenes talking.
I found myself on the opposite end of the spectrum from many. I felt that RM should be publicly rebuked ( I Tim. 5:19-20). If an elder that sins is to be publicly rebuked, how much more a man who has pretended to be a apostle?? I felt that RM should publicly repent before the church, given the nature of his abuse of the trust given him. I felt that this should not be dealt with in silence. How can true Christian love be expressed or true help be offered when the situation is a forbidden subject?
My wife tried to talk with other women who were mothers of victims. She was publicly rebuked in a Sunday morning meeting. Not by name, of course. But someone came up to me after the meeting and said he knew who was being chastised. And the chastising message came down to this - that my wife was being cruel to RM by discussing the matter with others.
Several workers (RN in particular) expressed to me that no one knew what to do. That floored me! I asked to be able to attend a worker meeting that was being held to discuss the issue. No invitation.
I was also told that SP knew about RM's perverted activities in Mexico but allowed him to stay in the work, while bringing him home to CA. HH, EA, and DM must also have known at this time.
I requested of WP that the churches in the area be gathered together to discuss the matter and get everybody on the same page. Answer - We don't want a meeting where others would offer their opinion on what should be done.
I asked one man why we didn't follow the Matthew 18 instructions? Answer - HH said we didn't do that. I asked why we don't pray over him, or gather the elders to together to pray for him as commanded in James? Answer - We don't do that.
After about three years, things began to get worse. RM's mother attended our meeting. She spoke only Spanish. On union Sunday's, she attended the meeting where here son was still welcome. We went to another meeting. She began to speak out in her testimony that I was preventing R from attending or speaking in meeting. The poor woman who was translating hardly knew what to do or say.
One man who was in the meeting and understood Spanish contacted me and we began to correspond with the workers to try to get them to openly address the issue. Nothing could be done - utter gridlock. In fact, we found out that nothing could be done without word from the authority - HH, SP, EA, and DM.
In frustration, two other men and I determined to confront RM ourselves and proceeded to set it up. RM attended the meeting and brought his supporters. The upshot of that meeting was that RM refused to openly acknowledge his sin, would not tell his mother, etc., etc. His supporters made him out to be the victim and the victims out to be the criminals. It was a tense meeting.
After that, the workers finally stepped in and did something. They banned RM from attending any meetings. They also slapped our wrists for taking things into our own hands. "This is a worker matter). In our meeting with them it came out that HH, who never showed his face in our meeting once to find out what the concerns were, simply expressed being tired of the affair and wanted everyone to get a life!
Convention messages concentrated on forgiveness and restored fellowship, seeming to ignore the fact that the path to forgiveness and restored fellowship is the road of repentance and confession.
No, this situation is not the reason we left the fellowship. But it is just another disappointment that drove me to my knees for help. Those prayers were answered when we observed a "worldly church" in Texas lovingly and openly discipline and disfellowship a couple - the end of a careful Matthew 18 process. Not lashing out or calling the offenders unsaved, but simply warning them, calling on them for repentance, and earnestly praying for their restoration. What an astounding thing that was to observe. We heard the elders openly acknowledge their accountability to the people they served. And you know what? That church spent the entire Saturday previous openly discussing the situation and the need to take action with all the couples in the church.
Something mentioned in that church was this - one mark of a false church is the lack of biblical discipline.
Now...you can get tangled up with my story here or attack me personally. But the real issues are these:
How should a church body of believers in Jesus Christ address this situation?
What is the responsibility of the church of Jesus Christ to the world at large in this matter?
What is the responsibility of the church of Jesus Christ to the civil authorities?
The Scriptures do provide answers.
My understanding of RM's sentence is that he was convicted of crimes that happened after 2000...after he claimed to me in person that he had quit years prior. That is a sad and horrific commentary.
May God instill in every true shepherd an over-riding sense to protect the little lambs from such wolves. May parents elders rise up everywhere to refuse fellowship to such wolves. And may these wolves be rebuked and reproved and the gospel of Jesus Christ proclaimed to them, wherever they may be found. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and work His miraculous work of sanctification in their lives - to the glory of His grace. However, they may yet have to suffer the consequences of their actions in this life.
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Post by Pete unlogged on Feb 7, 2007 3:34:23 GMT -5
Scott Parish: Thanks for the well-written, detailed assessment of the situation from your perspective. I appreciated your post very much. Pete
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and this proves what
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Post by and this proves what on Feb 7, 2007 3:55:13 GMT -5
And this all proves that among priests, among pastors, and among workers, there are, among the many, a few....who are bad apples?
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Post by AND tHIS on Feb 7, 2007 4:45:13 GMT -5
And this all proves that among priests, among pastors, and among workers, there are, among the many, a few....who are bad apples? And this just proves that there are many more bad apples willing to cover-up the misdeeds of those intrusted with the sheep. Wolves in sheeps clothing I say
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 7, 2007 4:48:52 GMT -5
To those in denial. Sexual mis-conduct among the workers has been covered up in the past, and in my opinion dealt with very badly mostly denied. This is fact in many cases, I'm glad that now it is USUALLY dealt with quickly.
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Post by gregleepluggedin on Feb 7, 2007 4:58:49 GMT -5
To those in denial. Sexual mis-conduct among the workers has been covered up in the past, and in my opinion dealt with very badly mostly denied. This is fact in many cases, I'm glad that now it is USUALLY dealt with quickly. Do you mean as of 3:48am Wednesday 2/7/07 there will be a change in policy and procedures in the workers' church for dealing with sexual misconduct? Or do you mean dealt with quickly as in moved to another field immediately at first rumor?
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 7, 2007 5:32:30 GMT -5
To those in denial. Sexual mis-conduct among the workers has been covered up in the past, and in my opinion dealt with very badly mostly denied. This is fact in many cases, I'm glad that now it is USUALLY dealt with quickly. Do you mean as of 3:48am Wednesday 2/7/07 there will be a change in policy and procedures in the workers' church for dealing with sexual misconduct? Or do you mean dealt with quickly as in moved to another field immediately at first rumor? You not able to sleep? actually 9.48am here when that was posted. No I'm saying that these days, it is dealt with better than it has in the past 1970's, 80's and 90's. But by no means am I saying it is dealt with as well as it should be.
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Post by rjkee on Feb 7, 2007 6:19:50 GMT -5
Teenager,
What evidence do you have for your assertion that sexual misconduct 'is dealt with better than in ... 1970's, 80's and 90's'? Are you referring to Ireland, or a wider area?
If your observation is based on the activities of workers in Ireland, have there been instances of sexual abuse in Ireland involving workers after Noel Tanner's assaults on children in the 1970s, where the workers have demonstrated the ‘better’ approach? There certainly was considerable scope for improvement.
I do find your assertion surprising, because as recently as 1994, I was told by Tommie Gamble, that I (one of Tanner's victims) was 'the one with the problem', and he refused to meet me until I threatened him with legal action and exposure in the press. In my subsequent discussions with both Tommie and Bertie Anderson, they showed a distinctly un-Christian lack of compassion and understanding.
BTW, I sincerely hope that I am incorrect in my supposition.
Best regards
Robert
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 7, 2007 6:32:13 GMT -5
Teenager, What evidence do you have for your assertion that sexual misconduct 'is dealt with better than in ... 1970's, 80's and 90's'? Are you referring to Ireland, or a wider area? If your observation is based on the activities of workers in Ireland, have there been instances of sexual abuse in Ireland involving workers after Noel Tanner's assaults on children in the 1970s, where the workers have demonstrated the ‘better’ approach? There certainly was considerable scope for improvement. I do find your assertion surprising, because as recently as 1994, I was told by Tommie Gamble, that I (one of Tanner's victims) was 'the one with the problem', and he refused to meet me until I threatened him with legal action and exposure in the press. In my subsequent discussions with both Tommie and Bertie Anderson, they showed a distinctly un-Christian lack of compassion and understanding. BTW, I sincerely hope that I am incorrect in my supposition. Best regards Robert I don't think I need to be put under cross exampination, this isn't a court house. As far as I'm concerned it has been dealt with better, from a number of cases I have heard about. 1994 would fall under the 90's. As you can see from my post I said it has been covered up and denied. And I refer to what happened to you, when I say that. Yours was very badly dealt with and I understand that. also to inform you, Bertie Anderson died 2 weeks ago.
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Post by rjkee on Feb 7, 2007 6:43:33 GMT -5
Teenager,
You made an unsupported assertion. I merely asked for the evidence.
Thanks. Your reply is illuminating.
Best regards
Robert
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 7, 2007 6:56:13 GMT -5
Teenager, You made an unsupported assertion. I merely asked for the evidence. Thanks. Your reply is illuminating. Best regards Robert I don't have any obligation to provide evidence to the world of events that prove to me that prove that problems are dealt with quicker now than in the past.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 7:00:51 GMT -5
A typical cult method of avoiding responsibility for obvious corruption is to make unsubstantiated suggestions that "things are different now" --- I remember that line being run back when I was in the work in Canada close to 40 years ago now. Sex abuse cases in 2x2 circles are actually popping up far more often now than they did then. The subject of this post is a conviction just a month old -- As far as I can understand, 2x2 leadership is presently in hard boiled denial over the issue, per today!! From North America, the "ship them to South America" policy is still firmly in place as far as I can see.
Edgar
Remember, yesterday when I started this thread, the first reaction of 2x2 supporters was to question my credibility as to if it had even happened. The suggestion was that I was just making it up!!
After the facts of the matter have been firmly established, the reaction has to be changed to "things are different now (or things are different where I live)" Denial is obviously well and healthy in the group, as of yesterday!!!
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 7, 2007 7:26:06 GMT -5
A typical cult method of avoiding responsibility for obvious corruption is to make unsubstantiated suggestions that "things are different now" --- I remember that line being run back when I was in the work in Canada close to 40 years ago now. Sex abuse cases in 2x2 circles are actually popping up far more often now than they did then. The subject of this post is a conviction just a month old -- As far as I can understand, 2x2 leadership is presently in hard boiled denial over the issue, per today!! From North America, the "ship them to South America" policy is still firmly in place as far as I can see. Edgar Remember, yesterday when I started this thread, the first reaction of 2x2 supporters was to question my credibility as to if it had even happened. The suggestion was that I was just making it up!! After the facts of the matter have been firmly established, the reaction has to be changed to "things are different now (or things are different where I live)" Denial is obviously well and healthy in the group, as of yesterday!!! From what I know, I'm not claiming a monopoly of knowing everyone's story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 7:47:31 GMT -5
Seems to me 'stargazer', that you are more interested in finding new ways to express your disrespect for my person, than you are in dealing with the subject matter of the thread. (if it makes you happy, by all means continue!) This is quite often the personal agenda of folks when unpleasant facts are laid on the table.
Edgar
Acts 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
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Post by las logged out on Feb 7, 2007 7:53:39 GMT -5
I know of an old case where the worker brother of an overseer was caught molesting an underaged girl. This goes back to the 70's. It wasn't covered up. It was dealt with by a large group of elders who summarily punted the sicko forever. Edgar should know about this case in his neighbouring province. He either doesn't want to talk about it because it demonstrates the opposite of what he is saying, or he had his head stuck in the sand back then too. I would like to hear about this more!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 8:06:09 GMT -5
I think the referral was to Stanley Lee (the overseer in Manitoba/Northern Ontario for many years) brother Sid Lee being put out of the work for alleged sexual abuse in the late 60s or early 70s. None of the facts were ever laid on the table (and the secrecy was in full place - ) (I was in the work in the area at the time). Sid Lee claimed his innocence until he died a few years ago now (In Regina Saskatchewan) -- and there were ample political reasons to silence him , so I have my doubts as to the truth ever being important to senior workers at the time.
Incidentally, a year or so ago I got a letter from the lady who had taken hand of Sid's possessions after he died, and she wrote me a very nice letter about some letters from me she found in his possessions.
Perhaps one of the greatest regrets I have about my time in the work, was my lack of courage to do some independent research about the reality in the numerous folks zapped by the system back then. Instead, I just swallowed what I was told -- and today I am not proud of it. Many of the official story's given then, have proved to be massively misleading!!!
Edgar
Clarence Hunt was also a worker in a similar age group at the time, and was mangled badly and discredited in the political struggles then -- but never completely zapped.
Other workers I wonder about today are Willie and Millie McAlrath (a married couple) that were put out of the work when I was a boy. I know my mom and dad questioned it at the time -- but (like I did later) accepted the 'we know best' explanation that senior workers gave.
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