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Post by rational on Nov 5, 2011 21:14:56 GMT -5
Have you had a 17 year old lately??? Yes, three. Isn't that what parents do? Knowing the rules and following them are very different. But that is not enough to stop them when you are not there to stop them. Drinking teens. This is not something new. It sounds like some adult discussions were in order. "We do not want our children at your house without us because we do not feel it is a safe/proper environment. Again, these are social issues. What did you expect the workers to do? Perhaps they also saw it as a social issue. And how did you respond? That is a sad statement. Yet you seem proud of it. Do you not want to be friends with your children? Questioning is not criticism. You could be friends. This does not require relinquishing authority. Just remember that during the various times of their lives that children have their jobs to do. The job for adolescents, for example, is to get the parents to the point that they will be glad when they leave the house!
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Post by quizzer on Nov 5, 2011 21:35:54 GMT -5
emy, this is the rationale behind why it's okay for professing young folks to misbehave together. However, when the parents/guardians turn to help from the elders and workers, the parents/guardians are criticized.
You asked for examples. Here's what I remember:
1) Mother is criticized by a worker buddy for being too strict/proper when her son is continually taken away from a pot-luck by the worker buddy who wanted help with the TV in the back bedroom so that the worker buddy could enjoy the football game during the potluck. Mother wanted her son to remain at the pot-luck and socialize with the other professing friends, not spend time unsupervised in the back bedroom.
2) Parent delivers underage girl to professing pot-lucks, assured that she will be supervised while in company of professing young folks. Elder's family arranges for the underage girl to spend time alone with a professing guy 8 years older than her (unsupervised).
3) Non-professing parents need to supervise their son's wild behavior. (This behavior is determined by authorities, not the parents.) Professing relative allows the son to stay with him, because his parents are too strict.
4) Professing boy wants to date professing girl. No problem here, and no problem with parents. However, professing folks decide to become the match-maker, and whisper arrangements to the couple so that they can have alone-time. Parents are not involved in these discussions, and are viewed as obstacles to the match-makers.
5) alexander's family. 'Nuff said.
In example 1, the workers were approached. The worker buddy was too important to the workers, so the family was told to forgive and forget.
In examples 2, 3, and 4, the workers weren't approached. The friends didn't see the point. The workers had stated their support of these professing folks/elders, so the parents knew not to bother with the workers for support.
In example 5, it's kinda obvious that the elders/workers/overseer aren't going to support the parents.
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Post by faune on Nov 5, 2011 21:42:21 GMT -5
I've seen this behavior pattern with about 5 professing families. The "forgive each other, get along" advice is usually given to one side of the dispute. The "worker buddy" is usually praised for their bravery through these trials, their work with the young folks, their ability to be a shining example for all to follow. The other side (usually parents or guardians) are told to get their act together. They're being fuddy-duddies, old fogies (yes, the workers and worker buddies will use these terms), and need to allow their children to be irresponsible with no repercussions. Quizzer, I need some concrete example of this sort of worker behavior. No names or identities, just examples from reality. I wonder if the elder in tom's case is thinking it may be better for a couple of friends' kids to be messing around together rather than getting into even more undesirable company? And allowing them to spend time together at his home? I see that the elder and his wife aren't making totally wise choices, however, but like someone else said, if a 17 yo is rebelling, s/he will do it SOMEWHERE. Emy ~ In today's climate, the rebellion starts a whole lot sooner than 17 yrs of age ~ normally around 13 or 14 yrs of age and will continue for a good three to four years or more. Without boundaries and guidelines for your kids these days, you are asking for trouble. Personally, parents can't be buddies with their kids at such a crucial age where the hormones are running wild. Also, discipline has to start during the toddler age to become effective later on. Letting kids get by with stuff is just asking for bigger problems. I know of a few intelligent kids who got into serious trouble with the law as teens and it definitely is trailing them today into their 30's with their own kids. They may be smarter and wiser, yet marked for life with a criminal record due to parents not being present enough or not being firm in their discipline. Personally, if kids are friends with their parents during teen years, than somebody is not doing their job properly and letting too many things slip by. Just a grandmother's opinion, but I have seen enough to convince me parents need to be much more involved in their children's lives and creating safe boundaries for them while they have the opportunity to make a difference. Much better to keep your child from being severely burned by their mistakes by keeping them from bad influences in the form of friends or acquaintances.
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Post by rational on Nov 5, 2011 22:11:36 GMT -5
Personally, if kids are friends with their parents during teen years, than somebody is not doing their job properly and letting too many things slip by. Your contention is that you have to let things slip by to maintain friendship? With your current friends do you let things slip by? And as a friend you cannot be close? Even better to teach them to make the correct choices. You can keep them from bad influences as long as you are there but, as Tom pointed out, things can go bad quickly when you are not there. Teaching by sheltering is seldom effective.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2011 23:23:12 GMT -5
Perhaps some parenting methods need to be reviewed and revised.
I can only speak from my own experience. I have been friends with my kids from birth, but also a father. I exist to serve my kids as well as guide them. I have always treated my kids with the same respect as I treat adults, have never beaten them, pressured them or micromanaged them. I have always received the same respect back from my kids. We have never had a single problem with our kids, one now adult, the other well into teens. I actually admire my kids.
Maybe I messed up all along but just got lucky? That is a possibility, but I would do it much the same again.
One thing I do know about 17 year olds. If there is one single age in life when a person is the very least likely to be influenced by parents, it's 17.
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Post by emy on Nov 5, 2011 23:34:37 GMT -5
Thanks for the examples, quizzer. That elder and the TV thing sounds like something that should never happen. Have you investigated the possibility of CSA? Just fyi, for everyone, we have parented 4 teenagers. IMO, only one was rebellious to some extent, but we got through it and he is now a fine citizen and great father himself. So I have BTDT. (been there, done that)
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Post by emy on Nov 5, 2011 23:37:21 GMT -5
;D I came to that same conclusion!!
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Post by melissa71 on Nov 5, 2011 23:50:45 GMT -5
I'm going to have a teenager in 3 years. I hoping to replicate Clearday's experience with his kids!!
The biggest issue with me and my group of 2x2 teenagers when we were teenagers(long, long ago)-- is that we didn't know what SIN was. So, we did all the things talked about on this thread and then some -- underage drinking (and illegal drug use), fornication, filthy language, law breaking, etc. etc. And, what we felt guilty about was going to movies, wearing jeans and trimming our hair. And missing meetings. Quite the skewed perspective. And, I can tell you exactly where we got that perspective: From the workers!
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Post by quizzer on Nov 6, 2011 0:39:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the examples, quizzer. That elder and the TV thing sounds like something that should never happen. Have you investigated the possibility of CSA? Just fyi, for everyone, we have parented 4 teenagers. IMO, only one was rebellious to some extent, but we got through it and he is now a fine citizen and great father himself. So I have BTDT. (been there, done that) Trust me, emy, if I suspected CSA with that elder, his name would be lit up on WINGS. No, this guy doesn't have a thing for teen-age boys, just a real demanding manner with his TV watching.
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Post by redeemed on Nov 6, 2011 8:44:11 GMT -5
I called the workers the next day and ask if they would come and talk to us and I express how upset I was about this situation. This appears to be a social issue. Why would you even thinking of getting the workers involved? It is called pastoral care!
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lauri
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Post by lauri on Nov 6, 2011 8:47:34 GMT -5
I have 3 children as well. the baby is 16 and the twins are in there 4th yr of college. When I compare my rebellious yrs with theirs (which has been basically non existent) I feel luck and upbringing have a lot to do with it. Background for myself was I was raised in a strict 2x2 influenced household that had many many rules. I had very little control over my life so when I rebelled I rebelled huge. My children have been raised at a very young age to be kind and respectful. When someone spoke "snappy" to me I'd remind them that I speak to them respectfully and they need to do the same with me. They weren't raised to go to church on Sunday, they were allowed to dress and wear their hair how they wanted (choose your battles) they didn't have to clean their plates at meal time and their friends were always allowed to come over (and I got to know them) they were encouraged to think about their future from a young age. they knew they were going to a college after high school. They have always known how loved they are and that we have their back. Mistakes are life's learning lessons, we just have to do the learning part :/
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Post by tom on Nov 6, 2011 10:59:08 GMT -5
I am the adult in my children's life not their immature friend. My husband and I have been parent figures to many of our children's friends. We receive mother and father day card from some our older sons friends that are in their twenties. I don't feel we are totally out of touch with kids today. We took in one of my oldest sons friends when his mother had no place for him to go. We picked him up at 2 am in the morning once when his mother was kicked out of the place they lived in. This boy went to meeting with us had a great respect for the workers. He is also gay. The elder and his wife were nice to his face but laughed about his gayness be hind his back. When he got out of school he came to me for to help him get ready for an interview because he had been told he was looking too gay. He borrowed my husbands clothes which he always borrowed when he went to meeting with us. Was I his friend? Did he respect us? My parents had 12 children and my 1 brother put them through hell. He was the prodigal son. Yes' my parents were criticized by some liberal friends. Today my brother is still serving his country after 26 years in the army. My son is now in the National Guard. When he was ask by a state social workers if we were good parents he said yes. My problem is that the workers and friend did not back the rules in our house. I never once told the elder and his wife what I though of the way they raising their children. All I have ever wanted was respect for my convictions. I want to raise respectable children who can communicate with all age levels, not just their peers. Children who show respect and caring for others. Is that to much to ask. I have never interfered with the raising of anyone else children. I have made enough mistakes of my own. I have two families. Children in their late teens and twenties and a 6 and 10 year old. I hope I have learned some lessons and will do a better job with the last 2.
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Post by rational on Nov 6, 2011 11:47:07 GMT -5
I am the adult in my children's life not their immature friend. You could try being their mature friend. That must be a nice feeling. Certainly sounds like you were his mature friend. And he respected you. Were they aware of your rules? You don't have to comment on how they were raising their kids just the environment your did not feel comfortable leaving your children in. You are trying to change the way humans function. At various times kids want to be with their peers and have little to do with their parent. Did you ever read: Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent's Guide to the New TeenagerAnthony E. Wolf Ph.D. At times it is too much to ask. Just wait a few weeks and things will change. Give this book a read. It might help.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Nov 6, 2011 17:01:02 GMT -5
Quizzer wrote. Within the 2x2s, it's imperative to attend meetings. That's all. Since the meetings are shrinking, there is a growing concern to attract as many warm bodies as possible to the meetings. (Not outsider adults, but impressionable young folk.) The young folk are given a very permissive environment, if the friends and workers like them, so that they will stay in the meetings. If the parents object, well then, the parents will be labelled as having a bad spirit. I agree. Now please help me with this. What is your opinion of the following situation.
A "professsing" boy meets a girl and college and they move in together. But, she goes to some gospel meetings so that is "good" Now they are living with his parents to save money. Oh, they have separate bedrooms. Why, the workers can't even stay there because there isn't room, but they are so glad to have her in the gospel meetings. We're all human and if I just moved into another bedroom form having lived with my sweetie, I would beat a path to his door. Workers are just so glad for the girl in the meetings. Question. Am I too judgemental, are they naive? What about the parents? Thanks for discussing this with me.
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2011 18:36:27 GMT -5
Quizzer wrote. Within the 2x2s, it's imperative to attend meetings. That's all. Since the meetings are shrinking, there is a growing concern to attract as many warm bodies as possible to the meetings. (Not outsider adults, but impressionable young folk.) The young folk are given a very permissive environment, if the friends and workers like them, so that they will stay in the meetings. If the parents object, well then, the parents will be labelled as having a bad spirit.I agree. Now please help me with this. What is your opinion of the following situation. A "professsing" boy meets a girl and college and they move in together. But, she goes to some gospel meetings so that is "good" Now they are living with his parents to save money. Oh, they have separate bedrooms. Why, the workers can't even stay there because there isn't room, but they are so glad to have her in the gospel meetings. We're all human and if I just moved into another bedroom form having lived with my sweetie, I would beat a path to his door. Workers are just so glad for the girl in the meetings. Question. Am I too judgemental, are they naive? What about the parents? Thanks for discussing this with me. I'd be inclined to take a good hard look at the boy's parents. What are they thinking?? Do you think it would be appropriate for the workers to ask the boy to not bring the girl to meeting until they have different living arrangements? Is it possible there are mitigating circumstances?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 18:44:25 GMT -5
Quizzer wrote. Within the 2x2s, it's imperative to attend meetings. That's all. Since the meetings are shrinking, there is a growing concern to attract as many warm bodies as possible to the meetings. (Not outsider adults, but impressionable young folk.) The young folk are given a very permissive environment, if the friends and workers like them, so that they will stay in the meetings. If the parents object, well then, the parents will be labelled as having a bad spirit.I agree. Now please help me with this. What is your opinion of the following situation. A "professsing" boy meets a girl and college and they move in together. But, she goes to some gospel meetings so that is "good" Now they are living with his parents to save money. Oh, they have separate bedrooms. Why, the workers can't even stay there because there isn't room, but they are so glad to have her in the gospel meetings. We're all human and if I just moved into another bedroom form having lived with my sweetie, I would beat a path to his door. Workers are just so glad for the girl in the meetings. Question. Am I too judgemental, are they naive? What about the parents? Thanks for discussing this with me. I'd be inclined to take a good hard look at the boy's parents. What are they thinking?? Do you think it would be appropriate for the workers to ask the boy to not bring the girl to meeting until they have different living arrangements? Is it possible there are mitigating circumstances? In our area, gospel meetings are open to the public too.
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Post by JO on Nov 6, 2011 18:51:26 GMT -5
What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage?
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Post by sharonw on Nov 6, 2011 18:57:30 GMT -5
I'm going to have a teenager in 3 years. I hoping to replicate Clearday's experience with his kids!! The biggest issue with me and my group of 2x2 teenagers when we were teenagers(long, long ago)-- is that we didn't know what SIN was. So, we did all the things talked about on this thread and then some -- underage drinking (and illegal drug use), fornication, filthy language, law breaking, etc. etc. And, what we felt guilty about was going to movies, wearing jeans and trimming our hair. And missing meetings. Quite the skewed perspective. And, I can tell you exactly where we got that perspective: From the workers! Well, that's certainly an original way of thinking about what sin was!
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Post by sharonw on Nov 6, 2011 19:04:45 GMT -5
What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage? Most workers that I know of really skirt around sex topics...some older brother workers used to speak pretty hard and heavy about "fornication" but actually I think today's workers do that for "adultery" and little is said about fornication. And yes, I know adultery is married fornication!
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2011 19:08:49 GMT -5
What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage? Just a few of many references: Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, ... Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 19:13:53 GMT -5
What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage? Just a few of many references: Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, ... Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Who is fornicating in this case? Are gospel meetings closed to fornicators in some parts of the world?
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Post by JO on Nov 6, 2011 19:18:07 GMT -5
What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage? Most workers that I know of really skirt around sex topics...some older brother workers used to speak pretty hard and heavy about "fornication" but actually I think today's workers do that for "adultery" and little is said about fornication. And yes, I know adultery is married fornication! It could be argued of course that the parents are responsible for teaching moral values. But shouldn't the church be teaching moral values as well? What if the parents think sex outside of marriage is OK? The parents may have be raised like Melissa so kindly explained: The biggest issue with me and my group of 2x2 teenagers when we were teenagers(long, long ago)-- is that we didn't know what SIN was. So, we did all the things talked about on this thread and then some -- underage drinking (and illegal drug use), fornication, filthy language, law breaking, etc. etc. And, what we felt guilty about was going to movies, wearing jeans and trimming our hair. And missing meetings. Quite the skewed perspective. And, I can tell you exactly where we got that perspective: From the workers!
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Post by JO on Nov 6, 2011 19:25:35 GMT -5
Emy, I know what the bible teaches but frankly it seems that the church has lost its way regarding moral clarity. I suspect many don't know what fornication is, let alone take a moral stand on it. Does the church take a moral stand on fornication? How would we know? Has it ever featured as a mid-week study topic? What does the church teach regarding sex outside of marriage? Just a few of many references: Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, ... Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2011 19:31:50 GMT -5
Who is fornicating in this case? Are gospel meetings closed to fornicators in some parts of the world? The assumption is that the professing boy and his girlfriend who is attending meetings are. Sometimes we cause ourselves needless worry over things we don't know and that are not our business. But then, there is that verse that says to not company with any brother who is a fornicator.
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Post by emy on Nov 6, 2011 19:36:59 GMT -5
Emy, I know what the bible teaches but frankly it seems that the church has lost its way regarding moral clarity. Isn't the common answer to what the church teaches "We teach what the Bible says."?I suspect many don't know what fornication is, let alone take a moral stand on it. Amazing!Does the church take a moral stand on fornication? How would we know? I've heard reference to it, but rarely.Has it ever featured as a mid-week study topic? The chapters that speak of it surely have. Have you mentioned it? Just a few of many references: Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, ... Ephesians 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2011 19:41:01 GMT -5
Who is fornicating in this case? Are gospel meetings closed to fornicators in some parts of the world? The assumption is that the professing boy and his girlfriend who is attending meetings are. Sometimes we cause ourselves needless worry over things we don't know and that are not our business. But then, there is that verse that says to not company with any brother who is a fornicator. There seems to be two big problems in this story. First, the young people say they are not fornicators so the implication on this thread seems to indicate that they are not to be believed. That's a leap to condemnation. If you are going to go so far as condemn someone as a fornicator, at least get some proof. The other, more disturbing implication is that not only are they being told they are fornicating (which could be new information for them), but the demand to withhold Christian preaching from them. Jesus not only dined with and preached to publicans and sinners, but he actually gave the woman at the well the Living Waters. Oh yes, and he told his disciples that he didn't come to this world for those who were well, but for those who needed the Great Physician. And did I say he withheld stoning the adulterous woman? I think the workers are totally right to open the gospel meetings to the public.
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Post by rnstrbnsn on Nov 6, 2011 19:51:12 GMT -5
What a heart-rending story - this may help you through it all. To encourage you tom, I tell you to pick up your Bible and read about the Father calling Jesus “God” in Hebrews 1:8, as well as many passages all through the OT and NT that show both Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be God along with the Father. And simply accept it as God’s self description, not trying to understand since God is so far beyond human ability to understand, your natural inability in understanding three persons in one God should be a faith boost, not a draw-back. Then take a look at the gospel taught very clearly by Paul, spelled out very clearly in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. And understand that Jesus died for our sins – in our place – the death-penalty we deserve for our sins was PAID IN FULL on our behalf by God the Son. And if you believe these core doctrines of the Bible, you will be a real Christian right where you are at the time you believe them. And as one of God’s children at that very point, the door is wide open for you to effectively pray for the safe delivery of your children, trusting that God has heard your prayer. And if God has heard your prayer you KNOW that you have your petitions. Remember, it is not God’s will that ANY perish. The problem with professing children is historical in the workers’ church, not something that has popped up in the last generation or two. Similar stories of professing teenagers could be written in droves right back to the founding years. And why this is so could well be related to the historical façade of the workers’ church, in which little or nothing biblical has ever been taught to adults, let alone children. Ever since 1903, when the workers decided to lie and bury the actual history in the façade of founding by Jesus Himself, the teachings from workers have been masked in such ambiguity that without that “spirit” they say is necessary in meetings, not one person could begin to understand workers’ messages. So, the beliefs have grown in confusion so much that most workers today cannot clearly tell anyone what they believe, let alone those they teach. And if the blind lead the blind, not only do both end up falling into the ditch, the children of the blind fall into the ditch right with, or in most cases, long before the adults do. If the beliefs that a child is taught by the parents and their ministers is fog, especially teenagers will explore everything under the sun attempting to gain some clarity of purpose in living. And largely because they have been taught that other churches are Satan’s churches, professing teenagers naturally avoid forming friendships with Christian teenagers from those other churches – and those left to choose from as friends are those who have no direction beyond whatever makes them “feel good” at any given moment. Unfortunately, this is the fruit of the workers’ church; always has been; and always will be unless biblical doctrines begin to be taught within it. The youth of other churches often show the same difficulties during teeage years. But where the teachings have been biblical, strays through teenage stages of development often never lose the essential beliefs even during departures in all directions. And Christian parents often struggle to trust God to draw their children safely through it all, but they do have just such a basis of trust in God. And many of them would tell you that their trust in the God of the Bible was the only comfort they had regarding their children during those teenage years.
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Post by JO on Nov 6, 2011 19:56:17 GMT -5
I agree that gospel meetings should be open to the public.
Stopping the young couple from attending is not the correct solution, but its impotant that everyone should know where the church stands regarding sexual immorality.
Emy, you asked an interesting question:
Isn't the common answer to what the church teaches "We teach what the Bible says."?
It is the common answer but its quite disingenious and meaningless.
The bible teaches to kill Phillistines, but the church doesn't teach that.
The bible teaches that women are not to assume authority over a man, but sister workers are in charge of most fields and most have no hesitation to tell men how things are to be.
(I don't mean to argue on this one way or the other, I'm just pointing out that the bible can be interpreted in different ways).
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